# [Retros] How many times could a Diagram be repeated duringaproofgame?

Rol, Guus G.A.Rol at umcutrecht.nl
Tue Jun 5 04:15:17 EDT 2007

Oops! 5x(8+5+4)+4= 89 single moves!

Cheers, Guus.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

> Van: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at]

> Namens Rol, Guus

> Verzonden: dinsdag 5 juni 2007 10:03

> Aan: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List

> Onderwerp: Re: [Retros] How many times could a Diagram be

> repeated duringaproofgame?

>

>

> Hi Roberto,

>

> Correction on my previous calculation. Mixed up 'single' and

> 'full' moves. Since a "move change" requires 2.5 full moves,

> the minimum total number of retractions over 21 diagram

> repetitions becomes: 5x(8+5+4)+2= 87 single moves!

>

> Cheers, Guus.

>

>

> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

> > Van: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at]

> > Namens raosorio at fibertel.com.ar

> > Verzonden: maandag 4 juni 2007 0:53

> > Aan: retros at janko.at

> > Onderwerp: [Retros] How many times could a Diagram be

> > repeated during aproofgame?

> >

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > Thanks to Alexander and Tom for their comments.

> > They are wright having in mind I made a not proper

> > presentation. Sorry, I assumed that being this a retro forum

> > it would be understood by default that I was referring "under

> > retro conventions" but it was a mistake to state "legal"

> > game. This suggests "real game", where the draw rules have to

> > be claimed.

> >

> > Let's start again and present the issue as a retro problem.

> > There are many examples of retros (in the FIDE albums for

> > instance) showing that we agree on the automatic aplication

> > of the draw rules in this type of problems.

> >

> > PRESENTATION

> > Let's define "Diagram" just as a board showing pieces on it,

> > i.e., no matter at all anything regarding the right's status,

> > not even who's to move. I present the following Diagram,

> >

> > r3k2r/8/2b5/Pp6/5BpP/8/8/R3K2R (just an example with the

> > mimimal material)

> >

> > Questions:

> >

> > a) How many times could the Diagram have been repeated during

> > the proofgame?

> >

> > b) How many retractions are needed to show these repetitions?

> >

> > (all the above following the retro conventions)

> >

> > I will post my own answers in few days but it would be

> > interesting to have further interaction first (of course I

> > could still be missing something).

> >

> > Best,

> > Roberto Osorio

> >

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > -----------------

> > If "legal" means _legal under FIDE tournament rules_, then I

> > "Infinitely many times"; that is, there is no upper bound to

> > the number of times a position may be repeated. I posted my

> > reasons on ChessProblem.net a while back, and you can find

> > them here: <http://chessproblem.net/viewtopic.php?t=127>.

> >

> > Regards,

> >

> > Alexander George

> >

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > --------------------------------------------------------------

> > ------------

> > I agree completely with Alexander. As some relatively recent

> > correspondence

> > discussed, neither the repeated-position draw nor the

> > 50-moves-without-pawn-move-or-capture draw are automatic (see

> > FIDE Rules of Chess 9.2 and 9.3).

> >

> > Tom Volet

> >

> >

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> > Retros at janko.at http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros

> >

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