[Retros] How many times could a Diagram be repeated during aproofgame?

Rol, Guus G.A.Rol at umcutrecht.nl
Tue Jun 5 04:02:44 EDT 2007

Hi Roberto,

Correction on my previous calculation. Mixed up 'single' and 'full'
moves. Since a "move change" requires 2.5 full moves, the minimum total
number of retractions over 21 diagram repetitions becomes: 5x(8+5+4)+2=
87 single moves!

Cheers, Guus.

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----

> Van: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at]

> Namens raosorio at fibertel.com.ar

> Verzonden: maandag 4 juni 2007 0:53

> Aan: retros at janko.at

> Onderwerp: [Retros] How many times could a Diagram be

> repeated during aproofgame?



> Hi,


> Thanks to Alexander and Tom for their comments.

> They are wright having in mind I made a not proper

> presentation. Sorry, I assumed that being this a retro forum

> it would be understood by default that I was referring "under

> retro conventions" but it was a mistake to state "legal"

> game. This suggests "real game", where the draw rules have to

> be claimed.


> Let's start again and present the issue as a retro problem.

> There are many examples of retros (in the FIDE albums for

> instance) showing that we agree on the automatic aplication

> of the draw rules in this type of problems.



> Let's define "Diagram" just as a board showing pieces on it,

> i.e., no matter at all anything regarding the right's status,

> not even who's to move. I present the following Diagram,


> r3k2r/8/2b5/Pp6/5BpP/8/8/R3K2R (just an example with the

> mimimal material)


> Questions:


> a) How many times could the Diagram have been repeated during

> the proofgame?


> b) How many retractions are needed to show these repetitions?


> (all the above following the retro conventions)


> I will post my own answers in few days but it would be

> interesting to have further interaction first (of course I

> could still be missing something).


> Best,

> Roberto Osorio


> --------------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------------------------------------------------

> -----------------

> If "legal" means _legal under FIDE tournament rules_, then I

> believe the answer to your first question, (a), is

> "Infinitely many times"; that is, there is no upper bound to

> the number of times a position may be repeated. I posted my

> reasons on ChessProblem.net a while back, and you can find

> them here: <http://chessproblem.net/viewtopic.php?t=127>.


> Regards,


> Alexander George


> --------------------------------------------------------------

> --------------------------------------------------------------

> ------------

> I agree completely with Alexander. As some relatively recent

> correspondence

> discussed, neither the repeated-position draw nor the

> 50-moves-without-pawn-move-or-capture draw are automatic (see

> FIDE Rules of Chess 9.2 and 9.3).


> Tom Volet



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