[Retros] Dead position with eternally moving Queen YefimT 08/26/2004

TregerYefim at aol.com TregerYefim at aol.com
Thu Aug 26 13:17:16 EDT 2004

Hello, Michael and everybody! Yefim.
I received, Michael, your last letter with suggestions about math model of
chess. I am categorically and ironically (: :) against them. Part 1 of my
letter is dedicated to general question what is math model in science or in some
activity; Part 2 specifically criticizes your suggestions. And do not worry, I
will be short.
Part 1.
Definition of Math model (encyclopedia): It is any set of formulae,
equations, axioms, etc, that describe (even approximately, but essentially) the
behavior of any system in purely math terms.
My system satisfies to this definition. Your system (or system and
suggestions of somebody) satisfies too, if it deals with pure math terms…
Part 2.
You wrote:
I think a node of your tree should contain all the information in FEN
without the move number, but also the following:
1) all positions since the last pawn advance or capture
2) the state of the game: 0 for "no draw offer, not finished", 1 for
"White offered draw", 2 for "Black offered draw", 3 for "Black
resigned", 4 for "White resigned", 5 for "draw agreed", 6 for
"stalemate", 7 for "mate", 8 for "draw claimed", 9 for "Black
lost on time", 10 for "White lost on time"
(I hope that's all...)
My critical notes:
a) The first implies 50-moves rule? The last one does not concern position
itself, it concerns a game as a sequence of them and corresponds to the
definite path in a graph when the distance between some different type positions is
at least 100 edges (even for a game it does not mean Draw look below).
b) Your list in principle cannot be complete because it implies mostly human
behavior (which is very complicated) and is expressed not in pure math terms.
b1). About 0 for no draw offer. 1 for White offer 2. Black offer Draw.
What next? 1a- White offered Draw and Black refused 1b- White offered Draw
the second time and Black refused by complaining to the director (there is a
rule about it for annoying:); 1c-White offered Draw the third time and got the
warning due to the unsporting behavior …1z White offered Draw (or claim draw in
your example K against K+N+B) several times) and got sanctions including
loosing a game :(.
Or: 2a1 Black offered Draw incorrectly, not in his move (Fide rule), White
told him to make a move -> 2a2 offering a draw after a move (this affects at
least two positions). 2z: Black after White's reply is saying "If I make a move
I will not agree to a draw" and White, not knowing what to do, agreed for a
draw (yes, you know a special rule about that saying that the offer is still in
effect, but, as I said it affects all next positions which are upon your
model will be different in comparison with simple draw offer for them…) Or 5z:
draw agreed due to misunderstanding (remember history about Keres and soviet
chess grossmasters: they agreed because of KGB had ordered to do so; so now
5corruption: will mean "A game of 195n year agreed to a draw after 3 moves…due to
official order :)"
B2). Lost on time? What about in mate position? Mate is superior but player
did not understand that (I saw this situation myself!) and admitted his lost :(
Or how about 9z10 "math" term: Both flags are down after White exclaimed it
first allegedly noticed of opposite flag falling. Then came director (judge,
referee, arbiter - I am speaking for all your countries, knowing that
director in USA is called arbiter in Russia …) and decided:
9z10a1 draw; 9z10a2- White won; 9z10az White won and Black appealed to some
officials and again Draw…;)
c) Mate and stalemate positions are given in your list correctly, but they as
usual position are present in my tree. They mathematically reflect the
following fact: they are nodes in a graph that is: no more positions from them (set
of all direct moves is empty). In this aspects there some facts in my theory
but about it next time, let me finish with your letter.
d) your "possible action" (resigning, accepting and/or claiming a draw)
cannot be understood as characteristics of position, they are characteristics of a
game. 50-moves rule 3-repetition are also elements of a game (by the way, in
Fide rules those rules do not mean automatically draw, if both players want to
play they will and with time delay clock their play may be infinite :(: ( or

:) )

Here is my 7 example for you to criticize me. I have constructed dead
position with eternally moving Queen and Rook.
7k/b1p3pP/1pP3P1/1p6/BP6/QP1p4/1P1P4/RKB5 w 0 - - 1
White: Kb1, Qa3, Ra1, Ba4, Bc1 pp:b2,b3,b4,b5,c6,d2,g6,h7
Black: Kh8. Ba7 pp:b6,c7,d3,g7 White to move but this position will never end
by mate or stalemate by any moves.
I was trying to construct a position with at least one eternally moving
Knight possessing this property (no both draw rules) and I…Interested?
Yefim 08/26/2004
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