[W126 Coupe] MBCOUPES Digest, Vol 82, Issue 26

[Mac Blair]

The silicone brake fluid (DOT 5, not DOT 4)is the best solution.  It has a
higher boiling point, is not hygroscopic, and will not lift paint when
spilled.  I first put silicone brake fluid in my 1964 300SEL when I got it
from my dad in 1973, and it has been in there since, and I have not had to
do anything to the brake system until last year when the master cylinder
developed a leak.  I put in a new kit and replaced the rubber brake lines
because one of them had an internal failure which blocked return of fluid to
the master cylinder (and were 50 years old).  It might be noted that when I
changed it over from DOT 3, I did not do anything to clean out the system.
I just flushed out the DOT 3 by putting DOT 5 in the reservoir and pumping
it into the wheel cylinders while bleeding until the DOT 5 flowed from each
wheel cylinder.  You can easily tell when that occurs because it is purple.
Everyone seems petrified that the fluids are not compatible, and make dire
warnings that the surfaces be chemically clean of one before using the
other.  I obviously have not found this to be the case.  It is correct that
they are not miscible, but, what the heck, they are both brake fluid, and
the main job of the silicone is to keep water out of the system.  Way back
when I had heard a rumor that DOT 5 would make certain Girling rubber
components swell, but I cannot confirm that.

McClellan G. Blair, Ph.D.
Director of Technical Services
AQUEONICS, INC
(724)840-4481 Mobile
(864)286-3933 Office
(864)286-3935 Fax
www.aqueonics.com


> -----Original Message-----

> From: mbcoupes-bounces at mbcoupes.com

> [mailto:mbcoupes-bounces at mbcoupes.com]On Behalf Of

> mbcoupes-request at mbcoupes.com

> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 11:15 AM

> To: mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com

> Subject: MBCOUPES Digest, Vol 82, Issue 26

>

>

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> Today's Topics:

>

>    1. Fw: [s-cars] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake	Fluid

>       (calvin young)

>    2. Re: Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid (stevetsg)

>    3. Re: Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid (Jay Hirsch)

>    4. Re: Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid (stevetsg)

>    5. Re: Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

>       (Richard & Nancy Diefenbach)

>

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Message: 1

> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:31:50 -0400

> From: "calvin young" <calvinyoung at cox.net>

> Subject: [W126 Coupe] Fw: [s-cars] Mineral Oil as a substitute for

> 	Brake	Fluid

> To: <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>

> Message-ID: <B9CB3E678F334C778CE6047BEC47AFDA at calvinPC>

> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";

> 	reply-type=response

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: "calvin young" <calvinyoung at cox.net>

> To: <theringmeister at triad.rr.com>

> Cc: "Taka Mizutani" <t44tqtro at gmail.com>; "Joshua Van Tol"

> <josh at spiny.com>;

> <s-car-list at audifans.com>

> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 1:30 PM

> Subject: Re: [s-cars] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

>

>

> > good point, obviously we would have to touch base with the tech

> folks at

> > the manufacurers to be absolutely safe or at least the tecnical

> specs in

> > some detail.

> >

> > The petosin in the 94 Audi S4 is high pressure for the power steering,

> > power brakes, although they use brake fluid for the brakes.  I

> am thinking

> > this is more for a cost savings for the owner than the fact that it is

> > better for the use.

> >

> > I also knew of another engineer who used silicon as a brake

> fluid in his

> > corvette.  He tore the system down after 20 years and found

> absolutely no

> > rust in his system.  One problem with that is common brake fluid and

> > silicone based brake fluid are incompatible, requiring complete

> flushing

> > of the common before the DOT 4 silicon fluid is installed.  Horrors of

> > horrors, some govenment engineer who sets the standards for

> brake fluids

> > might be able to add something here.  National institute of

> Standards?? I

> > know an enginner who works there, perhpas he might be able to

> steer me in

> > the right direction.

> >

> > I have eigtht vehicles and securing a better braking

> alternative is not a

> > moot point.

> >

> > Cal

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: "Wylie Bean" <theringmeister at triad.rr.com>

> > To: "calvin young" <calvinyoung at cox.net>;

> > <s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com>; "S-CAR list"

> <s-car-list at audifans.com>;

> > <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>

> > Cc: "calvin McFarland" <urone2212 at gmail.com>

> > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2011 10:40 AM

> > Subject: Re: [s-cars] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

> >

> >

> >> Boiling point?

> >> Wylie Bean

> >> 90 cq

> >> 91 90q20v

> >> 92 UrS4

> >> 08 Q7

> >>

> >> -----Original Message-----

> >> From: "calvin young" <calvinyoung at cox.net>

> >> Sender: s-car-list-bounces at audifans.com

> >> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 10:24:39

> >> To: <s-car-list at audifans.com>; <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>

> >> Cc: calvin McFarland<urone2212 at gmail.com>

> >> Subject: [s-cars] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

> >>

> >> I solved my own problem and learned a lot about the hydropneumatic

> >> suspension fluid.  I recommend all who are interested in the

> subject go

> >> to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension  It

> talks about

> >> the care and use of the system and evolution of the fluids as time and

> >> problems affected the system.

> >>

> >> I would like to start a general discussion about using this or another

> >> similar type mineral based fluid as a subsitute for the DOT

> brake fluid.

> >> The reason is that normal brake fluid is hygoscopic, i.e., attracts

> >> moisture, and must be changed every year to keep the brakes operating

> >> without incident.  This was the reason the manufacturer switched to a

> >> mineral based fluid for the hydropneumatic suspension, failure in the

> >> systems caused by moisture and dust.  Anyone made the switch

> or know who

> >> has?   Audi uses the Petosin mineral based fluids.  What about

> the modern

> >> MB or Audi cars?

> >>

> >> Cal

> >> _______________________________________________

> >> S-CAR-List mailing list

> >> http://audifans.com/mailman/listinfo/s-car-list

> >> http://www.audifans.com/kb/List_information

> >>

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 2

> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:18:10 -0600

> From: stevetsg <stevetsg at msn.com>

> Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

> To: Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>

> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP168E556F95CEC51A2AEF784D4B90 at phx.gbl>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> I bought special brake fluid years ago for my boat trailer

> because of the threat of water damage.  I'm not at home right now

> so I can't go to the garage to look at the label on the can but

> I'm sure that if you google it you will find what it is that I

> bought or you can call a boat shop.  What I really want to

> communicate though is that water in convential brake fluid is a

> serious matter and the damage that it can cause is costly.  The

> water proof brake fluid is a little more expensive but cheap in

> comparison to the risk that you take if your brake fluid is

> subject to water exposure.

>

> Ernie

>

>

> Sent from my iPad

>

> On Mar 25, 2011, at 8:24 AM, "calvin young" <calvinyoung at cox.net> wrote:

>

> > I solved my own problem and learned a lot about the

> hydropneumatic suspension fluid.  I recommend all who are

> interested in the subject go to

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension  It talks

> about the care and use of the system and evolution of the fluids

> as time and problems affected the system.

> >

> > I would like to start a general discussion about using this or

> another similar type mineral based fluid as a subsitute for the

> DOT brake fluid.  The reason is that normal brake fluid is

> hygoscopic, i.e., attracts moisture, and must be changed every

> year to keep the brakes operating without incident.  This was the

> reason the manufacturer switched to a mineral based fluid for the

> hydropneumatic suspension, failure in the systems caused by

> moisture and dust.  Anyone made the switch or know who has?

> Audi uses the Petosin mineral based fluids.  What about the

> modern MB or Audi cars?

> >

> > Cal

> > The MB Coupes Website!

> > W126 SEC Mailing List

> > Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

> -------------- next part --------------

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> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 3

> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:57:54 -0400

> From: Jay Hirsch <J.Hirsch at mac.com>

> Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

> To: Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>

> Message-ID: <469F0185-29DA-4A26-A6DD-376B6E7AD725 at mac.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";

> 	DelSp="yes"

>

> Not to  burst your bubble,  but  hope to so before you brake system

> busts one.

>

> Mercedes and all car manufacturers with ABS systems do NOT recommend

> DOT 5, the silicone based fluid

> This fluid has a   higher boiling point and is intended for use in

> high performance  race cars where the brake fluid gets hot fast

>

> It does not hold water which is bad,  not good.

>

> All brake systems  contain  moisture or "water."  The difference with

> conventional fluid and DOT 5  is that DOT does not mix  with the

> water  that is a natural by-product of brake systems.

> The moisture or water sinks to the lowest point in the brake

> system...the  caliper.  One day you are  going down the road  and one

> of  two things will happen.

> You will apply the brake pedal and it will be like pushing on a brick

> wall with your  foot due to an air pocket formed between the moisture

> and the DOT since  water and DOT  5 do NOT mix or  you apply brakes

> and the pedal goes all the way to the floor due to the caliper  being

> rusted out from all  the  water/moisture in it.

> For these reasons it is recommended in cars with  silicone fluid the

> brake fluid should changed  every two years

>

> This from Raybestos

>

> "DOT 5 brake fluid is not compatible with anti-lock brake systems.

> DOT 5 brake fluid absorbs a small amount of air requiring care when

> bleeding the system of air."

>

> The only good thing  about silicone brake fluid  is it will not do

> any damage to  car's paint if spilled on it, which  growing up in NYC

> is what DOT 3   or 4 brake fluid was good for, we would use it on a

> neighbor's car to "clean it"  Does wonders to  paint sitting over  night

>

> You are not supposed to spill   brake fluid on  a car's paint unless

> you have trouble chewing  gum and walking at the same time.

>

> keep cruisin

>

> Jay H

>

> On Mar 25, 2011, at 3:18 PM, stevetsg wrote:

>

> > I bought special brake fluid years ago for my boat trailer because

> > of the threat of water damage.  I'm not at home right now so I

> > can't go to the garage to look at the label on the can but I'm sure

> > that if you google it you will find what it is that I bought or you

> > can call a boat shop.  What I really want to communicate though is

> > that water in convential brake fluid is a serious matter and the

> > damage that it can cause is costly.  The water proof brake fluid is

> > a little more expensive but cheap in comparison to the risk that

> > you take if your brake fluid is subject to water exposure.

> >

> > Ernie

> >

> >

> > Sent from my iPad

> >

> > On Mar 25, 2011, at 8:24 AM, "calvin young" <calvinyoung at cox.net>

> > wrote:

> >

> >> I solved my own problem and learned a lot about the hydropneumatic

> >> suspension fluid.  I recommend all who are interested in the

> >> subject go to  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/

> >> Hydropneumatic_suspension  It talks about the care and use of the

> >> system and evolution of the fluids as time and problems affected

> >> the system.

> >>

> >> I would like to start a general discussion about using this or

> >> another similar type mineral based fluid as a subsitute for the

> >> DOT brake fluid.  The reason is that normal brake fluid is

> >> hygoscopic, i.e., attracts moisture, and must be changed every

> >> year to keep the brakes operating without incident.  This was the

> >> reason the manufacturer switched to a mineral based fluid for the

> >> hydropneumatic suspension, failure in the systems caused by

> >> moisture and dust.  Anyone made the switch or know who has?   Audi

> >> uses the Petosin mineral based fluids.  What about the modern MB

> >> or Audi cars?

> >>

> >> Cal

> >> The MB Coupes Website!

> >> W126 SEC Mailing List

> >> Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

> > The MB Coupes Website!

> > W126 SEC Mailing List

> > Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

>

> -------------- next part --------------

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> URL:

> <http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/mbcoupes/attachments/20110325/9

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>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 4

> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:35:50 -0600

> From: stevetsg <stevetsg at msn.com>

> Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

> To: Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>

> Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP13E9FBE6BE1472C6B6B5FBD4B90 at phx.gbl>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

> Is water lighter in weight than Dot 5?

>

> Ernie

>

> Sent from my iPad

>

> On Mar 25, 2011, at 1:57 PM, Jay Hirsch <J.Hirsch at mac.com> wrote:

>

> > Not to  burst your bubble,  but  hope to so before you brake

> system  busts one.

> >

> > Mercedes and all car manufacturers with ABS systems do NOT

> recommend DOT 5, the silicone based fluid

> > This fluid has a   higher boiling point and is intended for use

> in high performance  race cars where the brake fluid gets hot fast

> >

> > It does not hold water which is bad,  not good.

> >

> > All brake systems  contain  moisture or "water."  The

> difference with conventional fluid and DOT 5  is that DOT does

> not mix  with the water  that is a natural by-product of brake systems.

> > The moisture or water sinks to the lowest point in the brake

> system...the  caliper.  One day you are  going down the road  and

> one of  two things will happen.

> > You will apply the brake pedal and it will be like pushing on a

> brick wall with your  foot due to an air pocket formed between

> the moisture and the DOT since  water and DOT  5 do NOT mix or

> you apply brakes and the pedal goes all the way to the floor due

> to the caliper  being rusted out from all  the  water/moisture in it.

> > For these reasons it is recommended in cars with  silicone

> fluid the brake fluid should changed  every two years

> >

> > This from Raybestos

> >

> > "DOT 5 brake fluid is not compatible with anti-lock brake

> systems.   DOT 5 brake fluid absorbs a small amount of air

> requiring care when bleeding the system of air."

> >

> > The only good thing  about silicone brake fluid  is it will not

> do any damage to  car's paint if spilled on it, which  growing up

> in NYC is what DOT 3   or 4 brake fluid was good for, we would

> use it on a neighbor's car to "clean it"  Does wonders to  paint

> sitting over  night

> >

> > You are not supposed to spill   brake fluid on  a car's paint

> unless you have trouble chewing  gum and walking at the same time.

> >

> > keep cruisin

> >

> > Jay H

> >

> > On Mar 25, 2011, at 3:18 PM, stevetsg wrote:

> >

> >> I bought special brake fluid years ago for my boat trailer

> because of the threat of water damage.  I'm not at home right now

> so I can't go to the garage to look at the label on the can but

> I'm sure that if you google it you will find what it is that I

> bought or you can call a boat shop.  What I really want to

> communicate though is that water in convential brake fluid is a

> serious matter and the damage that it can cause is costly.  The

> water proof brake fluid is a little more expensive but cheap in

> comparison to the risk that you take if your brake fluid is

> subject to water exposure.

> >>

> >> Ernie

> >>

> >>

> >> Sent from my iPad

> >>

> >> On Mar 25, 2011, at 8:24 AM, "calvin young"

> <calvinyoung at cox.net> wrote:

> >>

> >>> I solved my own problem and learned a lot about the

> hydropneumatic suspension fluid.  I recommend all who are

> interested in the subject go to

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension  It talks

> about the care and use of the system and evolution of the fluids

> as time and problems affected the system.

> >>>

> >>> I would like to start a general discussion about using this

> or another similar type mineral based fluid as a subsitute for

> the DOT brake fluid.  The reason is that normal brake fluid is

> hygoscopic, i.e., attracts moisture, and must be changed every

> year to keep the brakes operating without incident.  This was the

> reason the manufacturer switched to a mineral based fluid for the

> hydropneumatic suspension, failure in the systems caused by

> moisture and dust.  Anyone made the switch or know who has?

> Audi uses the Petosin mineral based fluids.  What about the

> modern MB or Audi cars?

> >>>

> >>> Cal

> >>> The MB Coupes Website!

> >>> W126 SEC Mailing List

> >>> Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

> >> The MB Coupes Website!

> >> W126 SEC Mailing List

> >> Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

> >

> > The MB Coupes Website!

> > W126 SEC Mailing List

> > Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

> -------------- next part --------------

> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

> URL:

> <http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/mbcoupes/attachments/20110325/0

> 21a8d09/attachment-0001.htm>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Message: 5

> Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:16:47 -0400

> From: "Richard & Nancy Diefenbach" <diefenbach at kingcon.com>

> Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] Mineral Oil as a substitute for Brake Fluid

> To: "'Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists'" <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>

> Message-ID: <004f01cbeb3a$556f0200$004d0600$@kingcon.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>

>

>

> Brakes are something I would not experiment with.  I change my fluid every

> two years and use Mercedes brake fluid applicable to the car I am working

> on.  The additional expense gives me peace of mind and trust in my braking

> system.

>

>

>

> Dick Diefenbach

>

> Danville, VT (darn cold for spring)

>

>

>

>

>

> Not to  burst your bubble,  but  hope to so before you brake system  busts

> one.

>

>

>

> Mercedes and all car manufacturers with ABS systems do NOT

> recommend DOT 5,

> the silicone based fluid

>

> This fluid has a   higher boiling point and is intended for use in high

> performance  race cars where the brake fluid gets hot fast

>

>

>

> It does not hold water which is bad,  not good.

>

>

>

> All brake systems  contain  moisture or "water."  The difference with

> conventional fluid and DOT 5  is that DOT does not mix  with the

> water  that

> is a natural by-product of brake systems.

>

> The moisture or water sinks to the lowest point in the brake system...the

> caliper.  One day you are  going down the road  and one of  two

> things will

> happen.

>

> You will apply the brake pedal and it will be like pushing on a brick wall

> with your  foot due to an air pocket formed between the moisture

> and the DOT

> since  water and DOT  5 do NOT mix or  you apply brakes and the pedal goes

> all the way to the floor due to the caliper  being rusted out

> from all  the

> water/moisture in it.

>

> For these reasons it is recommended in cars with  silicone fluid the brake

> fluid should changed  every two years

>

>

>

> This from Raybestos

>

> "DOT 5 brake fluid is not compatible with anti-lock brake systems.   DOT 5

> brake fluid absorbs a small amount of air requiring care when bleeding the

> system of air."

>

> The only good thing  about silicone brake fluid  is it will not do any

> damage to  car's paint if spilled on it, which  growing up in NYC is what

> DOT 3   or 4 brake fluid was good for, we would use it on a neighbor's car

> to "clean it"  Does wonders to  paint sitting over  night

>

> You are not supposed to spill   brake fluid on  a car's paint unless you

> have trouble chewing  gum and walking at the same time.

>

> keep cruisin

>

> Jay H

>

> On Mar 25, 2011, at 3:18 PM, stevetsg wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> I bought special brake fluid years ago for my boat trailer because of the

> threat of water damage.  I'm not at home right now so I can't go to the

> garage to look at the label on the can but I'm sure that if you google it

> you will find what it is that I bought or you can call a boat

> shop.  What I

> really want to communicate though is that water in convential

> brake fluid is

> a serious matter and the damage that it can cause is costly.  The water

> proof brake fluid is a little more expensive but cheap in

> comparison to the

> risk that you take if your brake fluid is subject to water exposure.

>

>

>

> Ernie

>

>

>

> Sent from my iPad

>

>

> On Mar 25, 2011, at 8:24 AM, "calvin young" <calvinyoung at cox.net> wrote:

>

> I solved my own problem and learned a lot about the hydropneumatic

> suspension fluid.  I recommend all who are interested in the subject go to

> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydropneumatic_suspension  It talks about the

> care and use of the system and evolution of the fluids as time

> and problems

> affected the system.

>

>

>

> I would like to start a general discussion about using this or another

> similar type mineral based fluid as a subsitute for the DOT brake fluid.

> The reason is that normal brake fluid is hygoscopic, i.e., attracts

> moisture, and must be changed every year to keep the brakes operating

> without incident.  This was the reason the manufacturer switched to a

> mineral based fluid for the hydropneumatic suspension, failure in the

> systems caused by moisture and dust.  Anyone made the switch or know who

> has?   Audi uses the Petosin mineral based fluids.  What about

> the modern MB

> or Audi cars?

>

>

>

> Cal

>

> The MB Coupes Website!

> W126 SEC Mailing List

> Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

>

> The MB Coupes Website!

>

> W126 SEC Mailing List

>

> Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

>

>

>

> -------------- next part --------------

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------------------------------

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Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.

End of MBCOUPES Digest, Vol 82, Issue 26
****************************************