so-called Stanford experiment but please stay tuned
Wayne Johnson
austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Thu May 20 22:04:37 2004
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What Stanford students?
Are you saying Milgram's experiment is bogus? Who has the "proof" of =
that? Why is the "proof" more believable than the original article =
which has been re-printed over and over during the last forty years. =
Odd, that this should happen now, I say.
Still with Milgram until I see better info.
wayne
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Michael Eisenstadt=20
To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net=20
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: so-called Stanford experiment but please stay tuned
yeah, the book was there and i got it.
and whadduhya know? it seems i was right. its bogus=20
and Milgram cooked the results, set it up so it would=20
produce the data he was looking for.
Stanford Univ students? No way. There is NO mention
of any Stanford Experiment in the index.
What it was was Milgram who was at Yale at this
time advertised for New Haven townies offering $4.00=20
an hour for his experiment. He handpicked the "prisoner"
for his loser looks and dress (see photo below) referring
to him as a "rotund accountant." He describes one of the=20
hired jailors thus:
"Fred Prozi, Unemployed (in Experiment 5)
The subject is about fifty ears old, dressed in a jacket=20
but no tie; he has a good-natured, if slightly dissolute,
appearance. He employs working-class grammar and=20
strikes one as a rather ordinary fellow."
Milgram then intimidates the jailer into administering
stronger and stronger electric shocks to the prisoner=20
which elicit louder and louder shrieks and banging
on the wall which, at a certain point, ominously cease.
Then, following Milgram's oh so objective description of
Mr. Prozi quoted above, there are 3 pages of transcribed=20
conversation as Prozi gets tricked into continuing the=20
fake torture despite his palpable reluctance to do so.
Proving? Proving nothing of course. Psychology is
notorious for cooked experiments and the number of
fakers interviewed on TV is astounding. See Richard
Posner's very entertaining Public Intellectuals which
is a close look at the most frequently seen 100=20
speaking heads on TV and what they argue for and=20
what their track record is on what they argued for the=20
week or year before.
I am not surprised that Frances took my doubting
the likelihood of the legend as yet another example of=20
my moral delinquencies. It's easier for her to put me=20
down than to think through the possibility that what=20
she so readily believed just ain't so (about the=20
imaginary Stanford students torturing one another).=20
Unsurprisingly the copy of Milgram's book is underlined
throughout in colored ink and highlighted elsewhere
in yellow. As i said, Milgram's argument is the kind
that the unthoughtful automatically swallow down: for
them it is so counterintuitive that it must be right
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What Stanford students?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Are you saying Milgram's experiment is =
bogus? =20
Who has the "proof" of that? Why is the "proof" more believable =
than the=20
original article which has been re-printed over and over during the last =
forty=20
years. Odd, that this should happen now, I say.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Still with Milgram until I see better=20
info.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>wayne</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dmichaele@HotPOP.com =
href=3D"mailto:michaele@HotPOP.com">Michael=20
Eisenstadt</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Daustin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net=20
=
href=3D"mailto:austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net">austin-ghetto-list@pairli=
st.net</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 20, 2004 =
5:39=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: so-called Stanford =
experiment but please stay tuned</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>yeah, the book was there and i got =
it.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and whadduhya know? it seems i was right. =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>its bogus </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>and Milgram cooked the results, set it up so =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>it would </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>produce the data he was looking for.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Stanford Univ students? No way. There is NO=20
mention</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>of any Stanford Experiment in the =
index.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>What it was was Milgram who was at Yale at =
this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>time advertised for New Haven </FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>townies offering $4.00 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>an hour for his experiment. He h</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>andpicked the "prisoner"</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>for his loser looks and dress (see photo below)=20
referring</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>to him as a "rotund accountant." He =
</FONT><FONT=20
size=3D2>describes one of </FONT><FONT size=3D2>the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>hired jailors thus:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>"Fred Prozi, Unemployed (in Experiment =
5)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>The subject </FONT><FONT size=3D2>is about fifty =
ears old,=20
dressed in a jacket </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>but no tie; </FONT><FONT size=3D2>he has a =
good-natured, if=20
slightly dissolute,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>appearance. He employs working-class grammar and=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>strikes one as a rather ordinary =
fellow."</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Milgram then intimidates the jailer into=20
administering</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>stronger and stronger electric shocks to the=20
prisoner </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>which elicit louder and louder shrieks and=20
banging</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>on the wall which, at a certain point, ominously=20
cease.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Then, following Milgram's oh so objective =
description=20
of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Mr. Prozi quoted above, there are 3 pages of=20
transcribed </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>conversation as </FONT><FONT size=3D2>Prozi gets =
tricked into=20
continuing the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>fake torture despite his palpable reluctance to do =
so.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Proving? Proving nothing of course. =
Psychology=20
is</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>notorious for cooked experiments and the number=20
of</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>fakers interviewed on TV is astounding. See=20
Richard</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Posner's very entertaining Public Intellectuals=20
which</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>is a close look at the most frequently seen 100=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>speaking heads on TV </FONT><FONT size=3D2>and =
what they argue=20
for and </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>what their track record is </FONT><FONT =
size=3D2>on what they=20
argued for the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>week or year before.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I am not surprised that Frances took my=20
doubting</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>the likelihood</FONT><FONT size=3D2> of the legend =
as yet=20
another example of </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>my moral delinquencies. It's easier for her to put =
me=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>down than </FONT><FONT size=3D2>to think through =
the=20
possibility that what </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>she so readily </FONT><FONT size=3D2>believed =
just ain't=20
so (about the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>imaginary Stanford students torturing one =
another).=20
</FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Unsurprisingly the copy of Milgram's book is=20
underlined</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>throughout in colored ink and highlighted=20
elsewhere</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>in yellow. As i said, Milgram's argument is the=20
kind</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>that the unthoughtful automatically swallow =
down:=20
for</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>them it is </FONT><FONT size=3D2>so =
counterintuitive that it=20
must be right</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
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