[Retros] Natch 3.0 beta is out
Paulo Peccin
ppeccin at gmail.com
Fri Jul 29 17:21:14 EDT 2016
Oh, found it... Nevermind!
I agree that it uses the same "trick" as my problem: blacks can't castle
anymore.
But the conclusion about "why" is much simpler than my problem.
Paulo
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:16 PM, Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow... About the first problem, can you explain to me why blacks cannot
> castle?
> (if its not too complicated, of course)
>
> Thanks,
> Paulo
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 5:01 PM, Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh, ok!
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Pascal Wassong <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The links are correct, I tested them. You should maybe copy/paste the
>>> whole link, instead of just clicking on it. When I try to click on it,
>>> the last part, containing the problem number, is ignored.
>>>
>>> If it still doesn't work, go to the home page of the site
>>> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de and enter the search expression, for example
>>> PROBID='P0002056'
>>>
>>> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> Paulo> The links don't work! Paulo
>>>
>>> Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Pascal Wassong
>>> Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>>> Paulo> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> Paulo,
>>> >>
>>> >> I made a quick search in the online retrograde database. I found a
>>> >> mate in 2, where black cannot castle dating back to 1859. By Sam
>>> >> Loyd of course:
>>> >> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0002056'
>>> >>
>>> >> Another problem, from year 1915, more in the spirit of your
>>> >> problem, by another great composer of the retrograde analysis
>>> >> earlier times, Thomas R. Dawson:
>>> >> http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/search.jsp?expression=PROBID='P0001326'
>>> >>
>>> >> I made the search from the page http://pdb.dieschwalbe.de/ and
>>> >> entered the following expression : STIP='#2' and G='retro' and
>>> >> K='Cant Castler'
>>> >>
>>> >> To learn how to write expressions, you should use the examples
>>> >> page. This database is the most accurate online base for
>>> >> retrograde problems.
>>> >>
>>> >> Have fun exploring the database. Pascal
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>> >>
>>> Paulo> Ok, I see... :-) I'm very newbie to all this retro analysis,
>>> Paulo> and not very literate to chess in general.
>>> >>
>>> Paulo> That is a problem a friend of mine and I have invented, without
>>> Paulo> even knowing there was an established "retro" type of problems.
>>> >>
>>> Paulo> I have written a solution with proof in english for the
>>> Paulo> problem, but I am just trying to find a means to "prove the
>>> Paulo> proof", with some kind of computer help...
>>> >>
>>> Paulo> Thanks anyway! Paulo
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Pascal Wassong
>>> Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>>> Paulo> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >> Hi again :)
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> no, Natch cannot help. This is a classical retro, not a
>>> >> shortest >> proof game. Natch is absolutely not done to answer
>>> >> your question.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> The number of games to reach your position with the shortest
>>> >> number >> of moves are by millions. Even if Natch would give all
>>> >> these games >> (which would take years), you still would have to
>>> >> check that in all >> games, the bK has moved.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> It is easy (at least for me !) to see that in your position, the
>>> >> bK >> must have moved, so the black castling is illegal in this
>>> >> position. >> The proof is not very complicated to write down in
>>> >> plain english. >> You should do it, as this is generally printed
>>> >> with the solution.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> There are many problems of this kind already existing. This is
>>> >> a >> very old trick, maybe 100 years old.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> Pascal
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>> >> >>
>>> Paulo> That is my initial position:
>>> Paulo> 4k2r/pp2p1p1/P7/4Np2/1B4Q1/P2NP1n1/1PbP3q/K2R3R
>>> >> >>
>>> Paulo> The idea is to prove that the Black King has moved and cannot
>>> Paulo> castle anymore. Can Natch help in any means?
>>> >> >>
>>> Paulo> Thanks,
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Pascal Wassong
>>> Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>>> Paulo> wrote:
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Hi Paulo,
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Natch is absolutely not done to solve this kind of problems.
>>> >> It >> >> will take way too much time, and spit out way too much >>
>>> >> solutions.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Checking if your initial position is legal is easy for
>>> >> anybody >> used >> to solve retrograde problems. Finding the
>>> >> shortest proof >> game to >> your position is probably not
>>> >> interesting at all. About >> 80 or 100 >> years ago, this was
>>> >> sometimes done to show that a >> position is >> legal. Nowadays,
>>> >> nobody does it anymore.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> If you intend to publish your problem, the section editor
>>> >> where >> you >> will send it will be able to tell you if your
>>> >> position is >> legal or >> not.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> Pascal
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> Its for a problem I invented. Its a "mate in 2" problem that
>>> Paulo> requires retro analysis, and I want to check if the starting
>>> Paulo> position is really reachable in a normal valid game. So I don't
>>> Paulo> really know how many moves it would require to get there. I
>>> Paulo> want to find the minimum number of moves possible.
>>> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Pascal Wassong
>>> Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>>> Paulo> wrote:
>>> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Hello,
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> thank you for using iNatch and Natch !
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> For iNatch, the version 0.7 has been created for 32 bits
>>> >> >> >> machines, >> this is a bit outdated. I suggest using the
>>> >> previous >> >> version >> 0.6.2, which is a full java version,
>>> >> independant from >> 32 >> bits or 64 >> bits. Many users (me
>>> >> included) prefer the >> 0.6.2 >> version.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> For Natch, you must provide the number of moves. It is >>
>>> >> strange >> to >> want to try Natch on a position without knowing >>
>>> >> the minimum >> number >> of moves needed to reach it. You could >>
>>> >> test the position >> while >> increasing the number of moves at >>
>>> >> each try.
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> Best wishes, Pascal
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >>>>> "Paulo" == Paulo Peccin <ppeccin at gmail.com> writes:
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> Tried to run iNatch, but it does not start in my machine. Java8
>>> Paulo> installed. The logs say:
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> !ENTRY org.eclipse.osgi 4 0 2016-07-29 14:45:04.760 !MESSAGE
>>> Paulo> Application error !STACK 1 java.lang.UnsatisfiedLinkError: no
>>> Paulo> swt-win32-3320 or swt-win32 in swt.library.path,
>>> Paulo> java.libary.path or the jar file
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> Also, can I use Natch to find a solution to a position, but I
>>> Paulo> don't know how many moves it would take to get to that
>>> Paulo> position?
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> Thanks, Paulo
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> Paulo> On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Pascal Wassong
>>> Paulo> <pascal.wassong at free.fr>
>>> Paulo> wrote:
>>> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> Hello all,
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> 19 years after the first version, 7 years after the
>>> >> latest >> >> >> version, >> a new version of Natch is out. It is
>>> >> version 3.0 >> beta. >> >> You can >> download it from
>>> >> http://Natch.free.fr .
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> Previous version already computed the order of some
>>> >> moves. >> >> This >> >> was used to eliminate position having
>>> >> cycles in it. >> For >> example >> >> Pa2-a8=N-b6*Pa7 and Pa7xb6.
>>> >> These move orders >> found >> for a >> position >> are now used
>>> >> when searching for the >> moves. >> For >> example, if black >>
>>> >> must play Rh8-e8-e3-c3 and >> white >> Pe2-e4, the >> wPe2 won't be
>>> >> allowed >> to move before the >> black >> rook arrived at >> c3.
>>> >> This improvement >> increase the >> speed of >> resolution of many
>>> >> >> problems, and makes the >> >> --watch (-k for >> short) preaty
>>> >> useless.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> Many more move orders are also found.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected, where some solutions where
>>> >> not >> >> found.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> A bug has been corrected on Mac, which made the program
>>> >> >> crash >> >> when >> the hash-tables where full. I was surprised
>>> >> to >> learn >> about >> this >> problem so late.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> There are also minor changes in the output file and
>>> >> when >> >> using >> the >> visual option.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> More details about this new version are available in
>>> >> the >> NEWS >> >> file >> available when you download the beta
>>> >> version.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> There were many bugs in the numerous alpha version
>>> >> while >> >> >> developing >> this 3.0 version, which have been
>>> >> found by the >> >> >> testers, mainly >> Michel Caillaud and
>>> >> Thierry Le Gleuher. >> Thanks >> >> to them and to the >> other
>>> >> testers.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> There may still be bugs in this version. If you find
>>> >> one, >> >> don't >> >> hesitate to send it to me. The informations
>>> >> needed >> >> are: - the >> >> proof game, being as short as
>>> >> possible, that >> >> reproduces the bug; >> - >> the expected
>>> >> solution; - the number of >> >> the position where the >> bug >>
>>> >> occurs, if needed; - a clear >> >> description of what is going >>
>>> >> wrong.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> The precompiled version for windows is a 64 bits
>>> >> version. >> I >> >> could >> also prepare a 32 bits windows
>>> >> version, if enough >> >> people >> are >> interested.
>>> >> >> >> >> >>
>>> >> >> >> >> >> Happy composing, Pascal >> >> >> >>
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>
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