[Retros] rights & ocassions /answering Andrew

Kevin Begley kevinjbegley at gmail.com
Thu May 15 20:02:31 EDT 2014

>"In most fairy genres (including the fairy genre 'orthodox'), if the king
loses castling rights, the rook rights are completely useless. Only in
genres in which the right can be regained, the 6-bit representation should
be used."

Do not establish a rule which has no universal application.
Our first priority is not to a singular fairy genre (this is textbook

We can establish a universal rule, which covers all conditions.

Furthermore, allow me to explain why it is necessary to reiterate my call
for a definition of the intended resolution(s).

Consider the following position, in Parrain Circe (captured units are
reborn the same distance and direction from the capture square, as the move
following capture)...
white: Kb1 Sh1
black: Kg2 Rh2 Ra7

There are no castling rights (4-bits, 6-bits, or otherwise).
There are no en passant rights.
Black is on the move (an important consideration of position, which I
failed to previously mention).
There was no unit captured on the previous move (thus none awaits rebirth).

The final point is very important -- the position in some Circe forms will
depend upon previous moves (where units are awaiting rebirth).

Now, suppose the game continues as follows:

1... Kxh1 2.Kc1 (no rebirth -- because the rebirth square is offboard -- at
i1, if you will)
2... Kg2 3.Kb1
3... Kh1.

Question #1:  has a repetition occurred here?
Note: the final diagram seems identical to the diagram seen after
completion of black's first move.

I would argue that no repetition has occurred, because the information
necessary to describe the position has never been identical (btw: this is
the default rule that most everyone -- including the vast majority of
programmers -- would presume to hold for orthodox chess, too: is all
positional information identical?).

In Circe Parrain, the information needed to store the position, following
black's first move, must also contain a rebirth (even though that rebirth
might not -- and might never -- be possible).
There is no rebirth information contained in the final position, and
therefore, it can not be considered identical.

Apparently, a few refuse to accept this;  but, I will now demonstrate that
these holdouts can be split into two groups, according to how they answer
the following question:

Question #2: If there were no black Rook on a7, and the game score remains
unchanged, has a repetition occurred.

Note the difference: now, black does have the possibility of rebirth (2.
Ka1 would cause a rebirth of the white Knight, on to g1), but does not
elect to make use of it.

This is why it is necessary to ask the holdouts to provide a definition for
their intended rule modification -- the onus is on them to present a clear
suggestion (it is not the burden of others to pry an intelligent definition
from them).

And, to those who would assert that the possibility of legal rebirth
changes the position, I have a message...

You are clearly unaware of the folly of your pursuit: you are using future
legality (can black King move to a1), to determine the present state of a
position;  and, the future legality depends upon the present state of a
position, therefore, you are using cyclical logic (and a cyclical failure
is inevitable).

That is folly, in the extreme -- and I know, because I've investigated
numerous examples of this cyclical failure, in the Rex Multiplex condition.
Unfortunately, I can't begin to demonstrate the extreme folly of this
pursuit, until somebody provides us all with a clear definition.

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:34 PM, Retros Probleemblad <retro at probleemblad.nl
> wrote:

> On 05/15/2014 08:37 PM, Kevin Begley wrote:
>> In the interest of simplification of fairy chess rules, I would argue
>> that the 6-bit representation should be preferred.
> In most fairy genres (including the fairy genre 'orthodox'), if the king
> loses castling rights, the rook rights are completely useless. Only in
> genres in which the right can be regained, the 6-bit representation should
> be used.
> Joost
> _______________________________________________
> Retros mailing list
> Retros at janko.at
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros
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