[Retros] linguistic hole

Forlot dominique.forlot at wanadoo.fr
Tue Jan 19 14:27:22 EST 2010

What do you think about the term:


for these promotions!

Its universal in the meaning, ( everybody Know "his Name" )
A simple man who 'promote' ... and find the graal!

Best regards!

Forlot Dominique.

-----Message d'origine-----
De : retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] De la part de
andrew buchanan
Envoyé : dimanche 17 janvier 2010 15:09
À : Retros Mailing List
Objet : [Retros] linguistic hole

Dear Retrofriends,

It seems to me there is a hole in our language for describing promotions.

We like promotions, and we like to have diagrams which are free of
non-thematic extraneous promoted units. So if there is a promotion,
something may have to be captured at some point, to keep things looking

- If it's the promoted unit which is captured, we call it Ceriani-Frolkin
and pat ourselves on the back.
- If it's an original unit which is captured, we call the promoted unit
Phoenix *but* *only* *if* *the *original* *unit* *died* *before* *the

We haven't any term for the more general case of a non C-F promotee, where
the diagram is free of extraneous promoted units of that type.

Some problems are sometimes described as "double Phoenix", e.g.:

Henrik Juel
Thema Danicum no. 86, 1997/04
(no. 22 in Alain Brobecker's Introduction to Proof Games)
PG in 6.0 moves.

But actually it isn't - only the second promotion is Phoenix.

What we have here I suspect is another adoption of a non-PG term to the PG
world, where it doesn't quite work the same way. See:


which are referring in the world of directmates to a Nissl theme (as a
subtype of Phoenix I think) where the capture must come *immediately* before
the promotion. Clearly in direct mates it is more elegant for the original
unit to be saced before the promotee reappears. [Hmmm... Nissl could be an
interesting theme for a PG exploration...] (Maybe others on the mailing list
have more experience than I of use of the Phoenix theme in forwards

But what should we do in PG world?
(a) continue to abuse the term "Phoenix" some of the time
(b) use the term "non-C-F"
(c) decide that we don't need a word for this
(d) invent a new term

I think options a-c are unacceptable. I suggest the term "inheritor". So a
Phoenixes is a kind of inheritor (a posthumous one! :). We have still no
term for non-Phoenix inheritors, but let's not worry about that now.

Comments welcome,

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