From mvalg at velucchi.it Fri May 2 18:16:49 2008 From: mvalg at velucchi.it (Mario Velucchi) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 00:16:49 +0200 Subject: [Retros] http://www.bewersdorff-online.de/index_e.htm Message-ID: <29b3a48a0805021516i2517a004v14894c9cc93aba2f@mail.gmail.com> http://www.bewersdorff-online.de/index_e.htm -- Mario Velucchi via Emlia, 106 I-56121 Pisa - ITALY mvalg at velucchi.it - http://www.velucchi.it tel +39.3487366652 / +39.050502400 fax +39.06233238786 / +39.05061431159 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software Analyst and Developer / Computer Mathematician Combinatorics / Number Theory Algorithms field of research Coder - Database Coder - Web Coder / Windows and Linux Environment Maths & Chess columnist and author -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://eBrain.go.to -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr Fri May 2 19:23:38 2008 From: Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr (Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 01:23:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Retros] Twisted knights. Message-ID: <4400.81.20.213.128.1209770618.squirrel@mathwebmail.univ-lille1.fr> Hi retro friends, I asked myself the following question : How constructing an exact proof game, such that the 2 knights from a same side are twisted, each of those knights playing only 3 times ? I found such a game in 15.5 moves. Is it possible to construct a shorter one ? Have a nice weekend, Nicolas. From raosorio at fibertel.com.ar Fri May 2 23:17:02 2008 From: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 00:17:02 -0300 Subject: [Retros] Twisted knights Message-ID: Hi Nicolas, We worked this matter during 2006 and published in Problem Paradise a couple of PGs, not focussed on shortest length record but in the 6 knight moves to get the sibling and the complementary play strategy. I reproduce here the sending to Satoshi, *********************************************************************************** We made a research on the PDB and found that there are 15 PGs that show a mutual sibling of knights. We made the following technical evaluation: a) The arguments of all of them to justify the siblings are a central pawn capture or check protection. b) In these PGs the knigths move 8-12 times. There are no antecedents in the PDB of mutual sibling using just 6 moves, wich could be named as the "standard mechanism" in the sense of WCCC Halkidiki 2004. c) The homebase position is, in some cases, reached by the sibling side but not the oposite one. The Pgs we are sending here make the sibling in the standard way (6 moves) and the argument is the oposite side promotion instead of captures or check protection. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jorge Lois & Roberto Osorio Argentina rsbqkbsr/p1p1p1pp/B4Q2/8/2P1PP2/P1p3K1/P6P/RSB3SR 32 single moves C+ Solution 1.Pe2-e4 Pf7-f5 2.Bf1-a6 Pf5-f4 3.Pc2-c4 Pf4-f3 4.Sb1-c3 Pf3xg2 5.Qd1-f3 Pb7-b5 6.Qf3-f6 Pb5-b4 7.Pf2-f4 Pb4-b3 8.Sg1-f3 Pg2-g1=B 9.Sc3-e2 Bg1-c5 10.Se2-g1 Bc5-a3 11.Pb2xa3 Pb3-b2 12.Ke1-f2 Pb2-b1=S 13.Kf2-g3 Sb1-c3 14.Pd2xc3 Pd7-d5 15.Sf3-d2 Pd5-d4 16.Sd2-b1 Pd4xc3 Mutual NN sibling (6 moves) motivated by double Ceriani-Frolkin with promotions on the knights' home squares. Black side finished officer homebase. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jorge Lois & Roberto Osorio Argentina 1s1qb1sr/p1p2p1p/p2k1p1p/3p3r/8/2P5/PP2PP1P/RSBQKB1R 39 single moves. 13 + 15 C+ Solution 1.Pd2-d4 Sb8-c6 2.Qd1-d3 Ra8-b8 3.Qd3-a6 Pb7xa6 4.Sg1-f3 Rb8-b5 5.Sf3-h4 Rb5-h5 6.Sh4-f5 Pd7-d5 7.Sf5-h6 Pg7xh6 8.Pg2-g4 Bf8-g7 9.Pg4-g5 Bg7-e5 10.Pg5-g6 Sg8-f6 11.Pg6-g7 Sf6-d7 12.Pg7-g8=S Sd7-b8 13.Sg8-f6 Pe7xf6 14.Pd4xe5 Sc6-e7 15.Pe5-e6 Se7-g8 16.Pe6-e7 Ke8-d7 17.Pe7-e8=Q Kd7-d6 18.Qe8-a4 Bc8-d7 19.Pc2-c3 Bd7-e8 20.Qa4-d1 Mutual NN sibling (6 moves) with Phenix/Ceriani-Frolkin and Pronkin. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr Sat May 3 07:06:33 2008 From: Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr (Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 13:06:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Retros] Twisted knights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1167.195.146.233.234.1209812793.squirrel@mathwebmail.univ-lille1.fr> Hi Roberto, > We worked this matter during 2006 and published in Problem Paradise a > couple > of PGs, not focussed on shortest length record but in the 6 knight moves > to get the > sibling and the complementary play strategy. > > I reproduce here the sending to Satoshi, > > *********************************************************************************** > We made a research on the PDB and found that there are 15 PGs that show > a mutual sibling of knights. We made the following technical evaluation: > > a) The arguments of all of them to justify the siblings are a central pawn > capture > or check protection. > b) In these PGs the knigths move 8-12 times. There are no antecedents in > the PDB of > mutual sibling using just 6 moves, wich could be named as the "standard > mechanism" in the sense of WCCC Halkidiki 2004. > c) The homebase position is, in some cases, reached by the sibling side > but > not the oposite one. > > The Pgs we are sending here make the sibling in the standard way (6 moves) > and the > argument is the oposite side promotion instead of captures or check > protection. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jorge Lois & Roberto Osorio > Argentina > rsbqkbsr/p1p1p1pp/B4Q2/8/2P1PP2/P1p3K1/P6P/RSB3SR > 32 single moves C+ > > Solution > 1.Pe2-e4 Pf7-f5 2.Bf1-a6 Pf5-f4 3.Pc2-c4 Pf4-f3 > 4.Sb1-c3 Pf3xg2 5.Qd1-f3 Pb7-b5 6.Qf3-f6 Pb5-b4 > 7.Pf2-f4 Pb4-b3 8.Sg1-f3 Pg2-g1=B 9.Sc3-e2 Bg1-c5 > 10.Se2-g1 Bc5-a3 11.Pb2xa3 Pb3-b2 12.Ke1-f2 Pb2-b1=S > 13.Kf2-g3 Sb1-c3 14.Pd2xc3 Pd7-d5 15.Sf3-d2 Pd5-d4 > 16.Sd2-b1 Pd4xc3 > > Mutual NN sibling (6 moves) motivated by double Ceriani-Frolkin with > promotions on > the knights' home squares. Black side finished officer homebase. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Jorge Lois & Roberto Osorio > Argentina > 1s1qb1sr/p1p2p1p/p2k1p1p/3p3r/8/2P5/PP2PP1P/RSBQKB1R > 39 single moves. 13 + 15 C+ > > Solution > 1.Pd2-d4 Sb8-c6 2.Qd1-d3 Ra8-b8 3.Qd3-a6 Pb7xa6 > 4.Sg1-f3 Rb8-b5 5.Sf3-h4 Rb5-h5 6.Sh4-f5 Pd7-d5 > 7.Sf5-h6 Pg7xh6 8.Pg2-g4 Bf8-g7 9.Pg4-g5 Bg7-e5 > 10.Pg5-g6 Sg8-f6 11.Pg6-g7 Sf6-d7 12.Pg7-g8=S Sd7-b8 > 13.Sg8-f6 Pe7xf6 14.Pd4xe5 Sc6-e7 15.Pe5-e6 Se7-g8 > 16.Pe6-e7 Ke8-d7 17.Pe7-e8=Q Kd7-d6 18.Qe8-a4 Bc8-d7 > 19.Pc2-c3 Bd7-e8 20.Qa4-d1 > > Mutual NN sibling (6 moves) with Phenix/Ceriani-Frolkin and Pronkin. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very interesting ! Mine is unpublishable (horrible visible promoted knight), unless if it is the shortest length record, but I doubt about that. 1.Pd2-d3 Pc7-c5 2.Fc1-f4 Dd8-a5 3.Cb1-d2 Pb7-b6 4.Pe2-e3 Fc8-b7 5.Cg1-e2 Fb7xg2 6.Th1-g1 Fg2-h3 7.Tg1-g6 Pc5-c4 8.Tg6-f6 Pe7xf6 9.Ta1-b1 Ff8-a3 10.Pb2xa3 Pc4-c3 11.Tb1-b2 Pc3xb2 12.Ce2-c3 Pb2-b1=C 13.Cd2-f3 Cb1-d2 14.Cf3-g1 Cd2-f3 15.Re1-e2 Cf3-h4 16.Cc3-b1 From raosorio at fibertel.com.ar Sat May 3 07:52:06 2008 From: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 08:52:06 -0300 Subject: [Retros] Twisted knights Message-ID: <869cf1f24d82e.481c27b6@fibertel.com.ar> Hi NIcolas, After seeing your PG I wonder if the length could be reduced accepting a promoted piece on the board. Kindly note that in our first PG the thematic lenght is 15.5 too, since the last move is just to benefit the diagram. This is a logical task: to minimyze the thematic p?eces'movements and total lenght. On the contrary, I want to remark that Gianni got the opposite record with his very good entry to the Jorge Lois' 60th JT (12 knight moves without capture) Gianni Donatti JL60JT, Special Prize 1nqk1bnr/P1ppp1pp/QpRrR1BP/4N3/1K4P1/2PP1P2/1pNB2P1/8 15+14 Proof game in 28.0 moves 1.h4 f5 2.h5 f4 3.h6 f3 4.exf3 Nc6 5.Bd3 Ne5 6.Bg6+ Nf7 7.d3 a5 8.Kd2 a4 9.Kc3 a3 10.Bd2 axb2 11.a4 Ra6 12.a5 Rd6 13.a6 Nf6 14.a7 Ng4 15.Ra6 Ne5 16.Na3 Nc6 17.Qa1 Nb8 18.Rc6 b6 19.Kb4 Ba6 20.c3 Bc4 21.Nc2 Be6 22.Qa6 Bg4 23.fxg4 Qc8 24.Nf3 Kd8 25.Re1 Ng5 26.Re6 Ne4 27.Ne5 Nf6 28.f3 Ng8 Interchange of Nb8 and Ng8, requiring 12 thematic moves. There exists a pg with 14 thematic moves (P0000107 by Kornilov/Frolkin), but these moves include captures. See also P0001572 by Frolkin with 12 N moves with captures, and P0002337 by van Atten with 10 N moves without captures. Best, Roberto Nicolas Dupont wrote, ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Very interesting ! Mine is unpublishable (horrible visible promoted knight), unless if it is the shortest length record, but I doubt about that. 1.Pd2-d3 Pc7-c5 2.Fc1-f4 Dd8-a5 3.Cb1-d2 Pb7-b6 4.Pe2-e3 Fc8-b7 5.Cg1-e2 Fb7xg2 6.Th1-g1 Fg2-h3 7.Tg1-g6 Pc5-c4 8.Tg6-f6 Pe7xf6 9.Ta1-b1 Ff8-a3 10.Pb2xa3 Pc4-c3 11.Tb1-b2 Pc3xb2 12.Ce2-c3 Pb2-b1=C 13.Cd2-f3 Cb1-d2 14.Cf3-g1 Cd2-f3 15.Re1-e2 Cf3-h4 16.Cc3-b1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ raosorio at fibertel.com.ar raosorio at fibertel.com.ar Fri May 2 23:17:02 EDT 2008 Previous message: [Retros] Twisted knights. Next message: [Retros] Twisted knights Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi Nicolas, We worked this matter during 2006 and published in Problem Paradise a couple of PGs, not focussed on shortest length record but in the 6 knight moves to get the sibling and the complementary play strategy. I reproduce here the sending to Satoshi, *********************************************************************************** We made a research on the PDB and found that there are 15 PGs that show a mutual sibling of knights. We made the following technical evaluation: a) The arguments of all of them to justify the siblings are a central pawn capture or check protection. b) In these PGs the knigths move 8-12 times. There are no antecedents in the PDB of mutual sibling using just 6 moves, wich could be named as the "standard mechanism" in the sense of WCCC Halkidiki 2004. c) The homebase position is, in some cases, reached by the sibling side but not the oposite one. The Pgs we are sending here make the sibling in the standard way (6 moves) and the argument is the oposite side promotion instead of captures or check protection. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jorge Lois & Roberto Osorio Argentina rsbqkbsr/p1p1p1pp/B4Q2/8/2P1PP2/P1p3K1/P6P/RSB3SR 32 single moves C+ Solution 1.Pe2-e4 Pf7-f5 2.Bf1-a6 Pf5-f4 3.Pc2-c4 Pf4-f3 4.Sb1-c3 Pf3xg2 5.Qd1-f3 Pb7-b5 6.Qf3-f6 Pb5-b4 7.Pf2-f4 Pb4-b3 8.Sg1-f3 Pg2-g1=B 9.Sc3-e2 Bg1-c5 10.Se2-g1 Bc5-a3 11.Pb2xa3 Pb3-b2 12.Ke1-f2 Pb2-b1=S 13.Kf2-g3 Sb1-c3 14.Pd2xc3 Pd7-d5 15.Sf3-d2 Pd5-d4 16.Sd2-b1 Pd4xc3 Mutual NN sibling (6 moves) motivated by double Ceriani-Frolkin with promotions on the knights' home squares. Black side finished officer homebase. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jorge Lois & Roberto Osorio Argentina 1s1qb1sr/p1p2p1p/p2k1p1p/3p3r/8/2P5/PP2PP1P/RSBQKB1R 39 single moves. 13 + 15 C+ Solution 1.Pd2-d4 Sb8-c6 2.Qd1-d3 Ra8-b8 3.Qd3-a6 Pb7xa6 4.Sg1-f3 Rb8-b5 5.Sf3-h4 Rb5-h5 6.Sh4-f5 Pd7-d5 7.Sf5-h6 Pg7xh6 8.Pg2-g4 Bf8-g7 9.Pg4-g5 Bg7-e5 10.Pg5-g6 Sg8-f6 11.Pg6-g7 Sf6-d7 12.Pg7-g8=S Sd7-b8 13.Sg8-f6 Pe7xf6 14.Pd4xe5 Sc6-e7 15.Pe5-e6 Se7-g8 16.Pe6-e7 Ke8-d7 17.Pe7-e8=Q Kd7-d6 18.Qe8-a4 Bc8-d7 19.Pc2-c3 Bd7-e8 20.Qa4-d1 Mutual NN sibling (6 moves) with Phenix/Ceriani-Frolkin and Pronkin. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr Sat May 3 09:01:06 2008 From: Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr (Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 15:01:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Retros] Twisted knights In-Reply-To: <869cf1f24d82e.481c27b6@fibertel.com.ar> References: <869cf1f24d82e.481c27b6@fibertel.com.ar> Message-ID: <1591.195.146.233.234.1209819666.squirrel@mathwebmail.univ-lille1.fr> > There exists a > pg with 14 thematic moves > (P0000107 by Kornilov/Frolkin), but these moves include captures. I wrote a short article called "Un camp intact en fin de partie justificative" (Phenix 167). You can find in it the following entirely thematical game showing the sibling in 18 : Itamar Faybish 1.Cb1-c3 Cg8-f6 2.Cc3-d5 Cf6-e4 3.Cd5xe7 Ce4-c3 4.Ce7-c6 Dd8-g5 5.Cg1-f3 Pf7-f6 6.Cf3-d4 Re8-f7 7.Cd4-b5 Rf7-g6 8.Cb5-a3 Rg6-h5 9.Ca3-b1 Ff8-a3 10.Cc6xb8 Pd7-d6 11.Cb8-d7 Th8-e8 12.Cd7-f8 Fc8-e6 13.Cf8xh7 Fe6-d5 14.Ch7-f8 Te8-e6 15.Cf8-g6 Ta8-e8 16.Cg6-f4 Rh5-h4 17.Cf4-h3 Te8-e7 18.Ch3-g1 There is no reason for that record to be the ultimate one, as "camp intact" is a strong condition. Probably 12 in the non-capture case is more difficult to beat, but possible in my opinion. PS : If we ask to one side to play only knight moves, the length record is given by the following : Nicolas Dupont 1.Cb1-c3 Pg7-g5 2.Cc3-d5 Pg5-g4 3.Cd5xe7 Pg4-g3 4.Ce7-g6 Ff8-b4 5.Cg6-f8 Cg8-e7 6.Cf8xh7 Ce7-g6 7.Ch7-g5 Th8-h6 8.Cg5xf7 Cg6-h8 9.Cf7-e5 Th6-b6 10.Ce5-c6 Pd7-d6 11.Cc6xa7 Fc8-e6 12.Ca7-c6 Cb8-d7 13.Cc6-a5 Dd8-b8 14.Ca5xb7 Db8-a7 15.Cb7-c5 O-O-O 16.Cc5-a6 Rc8-b7 17.Ca6xc7 Td8-c8 18.Cc7-b5 Tc8-c3 19.Cb5-a3 Fe6-c4 20.Ca3-b1 From raosorio at fibertel.com.ar Sat May 3 14:17:12 2008 From: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar) Date: Sat, 03 May 2008 15:17:12 -0300 Subject: [Retros] Twisted knights/ "Un camp intact"/ "There is no place like home" Message-ID: Hi Nicolas, Mutual knight sibling is a very rich field, already quite explored but there are surely chances to improve some aspects. A proper article would be useful to clear up the state of art on the multiple tasks: * number of thematic moves * number of total moves * captures - non-capture * motivation (capture, check protection, promotion) * complementary strategy (Cerianni-Frolkin, Pronkin, etc) * complementary features (thematic side homebase, opposite side homebase, etc) and their combinations. On the other side, your concept "Un camp intact en fin de partie justificative" (all these articles should be available in the Retrocorner) is what Andrey and I named THB (Total Homebase) in our article "There is no place like home" (R. Osorio & A. Frolkin, Strategems oct 2007). We defined there the concept THC (Total Homecircuit) as the situation where a side shows all its 16 men on their "true" homesquares. The difference within THC and THB is, * THB could show "impostors" (knight sibling), being then THB-non-THC * THC could show a promoted piece on the respective pawn homesquare (THC-non-THB) This type of positions allows very similar diagrams resulting from completely different strategy. We used the following examples, Unto Heinonen, The Problemist 09/1991 THB-non-THC --------------------------------------------------- rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/2Q2R1B/8/2P1PP2/5N2/PP1N2PP/4KB1R PG in 12.0 moves --------------------------------------------------- 1.c4 Nf6 2.Qa4 Ne4 3.Qc6 Nxd2 4.e4 Nb3 5.Bh6 Na6 6.Nd2 Nb4 7.Rc1 Nd5 8.Rc3 Nf6 9.Rf3 Ng8 10.Rf6 Nc5 11.f4 Na6 12.Ngf3 Nb8. mutual sibling, 12 thematic moves. Roberto Osorio Original THC-and-THB -------------------------------------------------- rn4k1/pp2nppp/2p5/8/r1b5/q1b5/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR PG in 12.0 moves C+ -------------------------------------------------- 1.Nc3 c6 2.Nd5 Qa5 3.Nxe7 Qa3 4.Nd5 Bb4 5.Nf3 Ne7 6.Ne5 O-O 7.Nxd7 Rd8 8.Ne5 Be6 9.Nc3 Rd4 10.Nb1 Bc3 11.Nf3 Ra4 12.Ng1 Bc4. Composed as an antithesis to Unto's since 12 thematic moves are done but by double knight switchback leaving no impostors on the board. Roberto A. Osorio Strategems Oct 2007 "Can mate be delivered by the side which has all of its 16 men on their homesquares?" ----------------------------------------------- rnb2rqb/pppp4/6p1/7p/6n1/7k/PPPPPPNP/RNBQKBNR PG in 15 moves C+ ----------------------------------------------- 1.Nb1-c3 Ph7-h5 2.Nc3-d5 Rh8-h6 3.Nd5xe7 Rh6-f6 4.Ne7-d5 Ng8-h6 5.Nd5-c3 Ke8-e7 6.Pg2-g4 Ke7-e6 7.Pg4-g5 Ke6-f5 8.Pg5-g6 Kf5-g4 9.Pg6xf7 Pg7-g6 10.Ng1-f3 Bf8-g7 11.Pf7-f8=N Bg7-h8 12.Nf8-e6 Qd8-g8 13.Ne6-f4 Rf6-f8 14.Nf4-g2 Kg4-h3 15.Nc3-b1 Nh6-g4 16.Nf3-g1# "Can mate be delivered by the side which has all of its 16 men on their homesquares?" An opinion poll over 10 master-level chess players in the Argentine Chess Club produced 100% of wrong answers (?No?).Referring to the Osorio & Frolkin's article, ?THERE?S NO PLACE LIKE HOME? (Using homesquares in SPGs)this is a white THC non-THB position showing the THC# theme. This diagram results from a triple circuit from and to homesquare performed by pieces of the same type (one type trick). Roberto Osorio & Jorge Lois Stragems oct 2007 Black moving men? ------------------------------------------------- rnbqkbnr/pppppppp/2R5/2Q5/3P2K1/5P2/1PPNB1PP/4BN2 PG in 16.0 moves C+ ------------------------------------------------- 1.Pf2-f3 Nb8-c6 2. Re1-f2 Nc6-d4 3.Rf2-g3 Nd4xe2 4.Rg3-g4 Ne2-g3 5.Ng1-e2 Ng3xh1 6.Ne2-g3 Ra8-b8 7.Bf1-e2 Rb8-a8 8.Qd1-g1 Ra8-b8 9.Ng3-f1 Nh1-g3 10.Qg1-c5 Ng3-e4 11.Pd2-d4 Ne4-c3 12.Bc1-d2 Nc3xa2 13.Bd2-e1 Na2-b4 14.Ra1-a6 Rb8-a8 15.Ra6-c6 Nb4-a6 16.Nb1-d2 Na6-b8 there are many examples of THB positions with one or both knights having moved and all the other pieces of the same side remaining stationary. This case is different and its intention is to motivate a rhetoric question: why should one move any piece other than a knight if the final diagram is THB? I think that many opportunities for original compositions are still pending in this field. Best, Roberto From mvalg at velucchi.it Sat May 3 14:38:39 2008 From: mvalg at velucchi.it (Mario Velucchi) Date: Sat, 3 May 2008 20:38:39 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Fwd: http://www.math.tu-dresden.de/num/chess2008/ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29b3a48a0805031138j581957e6m38fce3bbb7e40b7e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.math.tu-dresden.de/num/chess2008/ best .marioV -- Mario Velucchi via Emlia, 106 I-56121 Pisa - ITALY mvalg at velucchi.it - http://www.velucchi.it tel +39.3487366652 / +39.050502400 fax +39.06233238786 / +39.05061431159 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software Analyst and Developer / Computer Mathematician Combinatorics / Number Theory Algorithms field of research Coder - Database Coder - Web Coder / Windows and Linux Environment Maths & Chess columnist and author -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://eBrain.go.to -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mvalg at velucchi.it Sun May 4 17:53:18 2008 From: mvalg at velucchi.it (Mario Velucchi) Date: Sun, 4 May 2008 23:53:18 +0200 Subject: [Retros] http://www.anobii.com/people/mvalg/ Message-ID: <29b3a48a0805041453t1729fe6je9d038b248738910@mail.gmail.com> http://www.anobii.com/people/mvalg/ -- Mario Velucchi via Emlia, 106 I-56121 Pisa - ITALY mvalg at velucchi.it - http://www.velucchi.it tel +39.3487366652 / +39.050502400 fax +39.06233238786 / +39.05061431159 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software Analyst and Developer / Computer Mathematician Combinatorics / Number Theory Algorithms field of research Coder - Database Coder - Web Coder / Windows and Linux Environment Maths & Chess columnist and author -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://eBrain.go.to -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mvalg at velucchi.it Sun May 4 18:08:36 2008 From: mvalg at velucchi.it (Mario Velucchi) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 00:08:36 +0200 Subject: [Retros] http://books.google.it/books?rview=1&as_list=BDUPhQ0UQw8KPqsSU65GKARoU9kLOIoBKev4WfFAfcaKQ5tQFeGQ&hl=it Message-ID: <29b3a48a0805041508r10abb99as86a53bf9748a9092@mail.gmail.com> http://books.google.it/books?rview=1&as_list=BDUPhQ0UQw8KPqsSU65GKARoU9kLOIoBKev4WfFAfcaKQ5tQFeGQ&hl=it http://www.anobii.com/people/mvalg/ -- Mario Velucchi via Emlia, 106 I-56121 Pisa - ITALY mvalg at velucchi.it - http://www.velucchi.it tel +39.3487366652 / +39.050502400 fax +39.06233238786 / +39.05061431159 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software Analyst and Developer / Computer Mathematician Combinatorics / Number Theory Algorithms field of research Coder - Database Coder - Web Coder / Windows and Linux Environment Maths & Chess columnist and author -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://eBrain.go.to -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From quarpaz1 at yahoo.fr Mon May 5 06:12:06 2008 From: quarpaz1 at yahoo.fr (Paul R) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 10:12:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Retros] the knight-Pronkin in proof games & JT-Raican50 Message-ID: <629486.21405.qm@web27605.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-780040879-1209982326=:21405" --0-780040879-1209982326=:21405 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi retro friends,=0AHere you will find pages (in pdf format) of Quartz32, w= ith retro interest:=0A=0A=0A http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-= 535.pdf http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-538.pdf =0A http://= www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-541.pdf=0ABest regards,=0A Paul=0A=0A_= _________________________________________________=0ADo You Yahoo!?=0AEn fin= ir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protection possible co= ntre les messages non sollicit=C3=A9s =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail --0-780040879-1209982326=:21405 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi retro friends,
Here you will find pages (in pdf f= ormat) of Quartz32, with retro interest:

=0A=0A
__________________________________________________
Do You Y= ahoo!?
En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protec= tion possible contre les messages non sollicit=C3=A9s
http://mail.yahoo= ..fr Yahoo! Mail --0-780040879-1209982326=:21405-- From abrobecker at yahoo.com Mon May 5 07:35:12 2008 From: abrobecker at yahoo.com (Alain BROBECKER) Date: Mon, 5 May 2008 04:35:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Retros] Definition of retro themes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <446753.29405.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear retro fans, I sometimes lack the definitions of some themes you are speaking about and related to retroanalysis. Could someone be kind enough to complete/correct the following list? For example, Phoenix is in fact : the piece is captured then a pawn is promoted to that piece? Valladao-Monteiro : Castling+ep capture+promotion. Allumwandlung (AUW) : Promotion in all 4 figures. Phoenix : A piece is replaced by a promotee. Ceriani-Frolkin promotion: A promotion followed by the capture of the promotee. Schnoebelen promotion : A promotee is captured on its promotion square. Switchback : A piece moves and comes back. ? : Switchback of a piece which is then captured on its home square. Massacre : Almost every move is a capture. At home : All pieces of (at least) one camp seem to be on their home square. Pronkin : ? ? : ? Alain Brobecker (abrobecker at yahoo.com) |_ _ _ |_ http://abrobecker.free.fr/ |_)(_|(_|| ) of Arm's Tech ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ From retromode at web.de Mon May 5 09:44:03 2008 From: retromode at web.de (=?iso-8859-15?Q?Bernd_Gr=E4frath?=) Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 15:44:03 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Definition of retro themes Message-ID: <944969887@web.de> Hello, I guess that most of these topics are, for example, explained in the FIDE-Albums. In addition to the Pronkin theme, also the Anti-Pronkin theme should be mentioned. Concerning Alain's explanation of a "Schnoebelen promotion", I think it should be added: "... without having moved after the promotion". Best wishes, Bernd > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: abrobecker at yahoo.com, The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List > Gesendet: 05.05.08 13:35:21 > An: retros at janko.at > Betreff: [Retros] Definition of retro themes > Dear retro fans, > > I sometimes lack the definitions of some themes you are > speaking about and related to retroanalysis. Could someone > be kind enough to complete/correct the following list? > For example, Phoenix is in fact : the piece is captured > then a pawn is promoted to that piece? > > Valladao-Monteiro : Castling+ep capture+promotion. > Allumwandlung (AUW) : Promotion in all 4 figures. > Phoenix : A piece is replaced by a promotee. > Ceriani-Frolkin promotion: A promotion followed by the capture of the promotee. > Schnoebelen promotion : A promotee is captured on its promotion square. > Switchback : A piece moves and comes back. > ? : Switchback of a piece which is then captured on its home square. > Massacre : Almost every move is a capture. > At home : All pieces of (at least) one camp seem to be on their home square. > Pronkin : ? > ? : ? > > > Alain Brobecker (abrobecker at yahoo.com) |_ _ _ |_ > http://abrobecker.free.fr/ |_)(_|(_|| ) of Arm's Tech > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > __________________________________________________ GRATIS: Movie-FLAT. Jetzt freischalten! http://freemail.web.de/club/maxdome.htm/?mc=025557 From mvalg at velucchi.it Tue May 6 02:16:12 2008 From: mvalg at velucchi.it (Mario Velucchi) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 08:16:12 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Chess Libraries Message-ID: <29b3a48a0805052316o50026c82q7abb1053c1f7da4c@mail.gmail.com> *Chess Libraries* http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/links/libraries.html http://ohchess.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50 -- Mario Velucchi via Emlia, 106 I-56121 Pisa - ITALY mvalg at velucchi.it - http://www.velucchi.it tel +39.3487366652 / +39.050502400 fax +39.06233238786 / +39.05061431159 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Software Analyst and Developer / Computer Mathematician Combinatorics / Number Theory Algorithms field of research Coder - Database Coder - Web Coder / Windows and Linux Environment Maths & Chess columnist and author -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://eBrain.go.to -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From otto at janko.at Tue May 6 03:08:21 2008 From: otto at janko.at (Otto Janko) Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 09:08:21 +0200 Subject: [Retros] the knight-Pronkin in proof games & JT-Raican50 In-Reply-To: <629486.21405.qm@web27605.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <629486.21405.qm@web27605.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c8af47$fe5b6340$dd00a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Dear Retro Friends, The links below are corrupted, please use these: http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-535.pdf http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-538.pdf http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-541.pdf Best Regards, - Otto Janko [mailto:otto at janko.at] [http://www.janko.at] -- Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, - will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. [Benjamin Franklin] > -----Original Message----- > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of Paul R > Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 12:12 PM > To: retros at janko.at > Subject: [Retros] the knight-Pronkin in proof games & JT-Raican50 > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="0-780040879-1209982326=:21405" > > --0-780040879-1209982326=:21405 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Hi retro friends,=0AHere you will find pages (in pdf format) > of Quartz32, w= > ith retro interest:=0A=0A=0A > http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-= > 535.pdf http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-538.pdf > =0A http://= > www.janko.at/Retros/Quartz/Quartz-32-541.pdf=0ABest > regards,=0A Paul=0A=0A_= > _________________________________________________=0ADo You > Yahoo!?=0AEn fin= > ir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure > protection possible co= > ntre les messages non sollicit=C3=A9s =0Ahttp://mail.yahoo.fr > Yahoo! Mail > --0-780040879-1209982326=:21405 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > ad>
york,times,serif;f= > ont-size:12pt">
Hi retro friends,
Here you will find > pages (in pdf f= > ormat) of Quartz32, with retro interest:

color=3D"#0000ff= > " face=3D"Courier New" size=3D"2"> class=3D"265463007-05052008"> = >   href=3D"http://www.janko.at/Re= > tros/Quartz/Quartz-32-535.pdf">http://www.janko.at/Retros/Quar tz/Quartz-32-= > 535.pdf
=0A face=3D"Courier N= > ew" size=3D"2"> class=3D"265463007-05052008">=0A
_________________________________________________ > _
Do You Y= > ahoo!?
En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la > meilleure protec= > tion possible contre les messages non sollicit=C3=A9s >
http://mail.yahoo= > ..fr Yahoo! Mail > --0-780040879-1209982326=:21405-- > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From CAILLAUDM at aol.com Thu May 8 14:37:14 2008 From: CAILLAUDM at aol.com (CAILLAUDM at aol.com) Date: Thu, 8 May 2008 14:37:14 EDT Subject: [Retros] Messigny 2008 quick composing tourney Message-ID: Hello, Here is the theme : promoted piece captures promoted piece promoted force on board accepted; no fairy piece or condition. 2 sections : a) proofgames b) any other kind of retros Examples (both published in France 25 years ago!) : a) Jacques Rotenberg, Themes-64 1983 rnb1kbnr/1ppppp1p/8/8/8/8/P1PPPPP1/1N1QKBNR SPG 9.0 C+ 1.h4 a5 2.h5 a4 3.h6 a3 4.hxg7 axb2 5.gxf8=N bxc1=B 6.Ne6 Bb2 7.Nxd8 Bxa1 8.Ne6 Bg7 9.Nf8 Bxf8 b) Andrey Frolkin & Andrey Kornilov, Rex Multiplex 1983 5K2/1p1p2pR/5PPk/6pp/7p/6P1/P6p/8 Last move? -1...Rh7xBg8+ and -2.Bg8-h7 h7-h8=R+ (and previously b2-b1=B) Section a) is RESERVED for people present at Messigny. Submission by e-mail is accepted ONLY for section b). Closing date : 11th of May in the evening Submit entries (again ONLY SECTION B) to : _lr.phenix at free.fr_ (mailto:lr.phenix at free.fr) Best, Michel -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mvalg at velucchi.it Sat May 17 07:41:43 2008 From: mvalg at velucchi.it (MValg. - H&Sc.) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 13:41:43 +0200 Subject: [Retros] =?iso-8859-2?q?=A9ah_i_matematika_-_http=3A//www=2Edanas?= =?iso-8859-2?q?=2Eco=2Eyu/20070707/vikend12=2Ehtml=231?= Message-ID: ?ah i matematika - HYPERLINK "http://www.danas.co.yu/20070707/vikend12.html#1"http://www.danas.co.yu/2007 0707/vikend12.html#1HYPERLINK "http://www.danas.co.yu/20070707/vikend12.html" best .marioV -- Mario Velucchi via Emlia, 106 I-56121 Pisa - ITALY HYPERLINK "mailto:mvalg at velucchi.it"mvalg at velucchi.it - HYPERLINK "http://www.velucchi.it/"http://www.velucchi.it tel +39.3487366652 / +39.050502400 fax +39.06233238786 / +39.05061431159 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- Software Analyst and Developer / Computer Mathematician Combinatorics / Number Theory Algorithms field of research Coder - Database Coder - Web Coder / Windows and Linux Environment Maths & Chess columnist and author ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- HYPERLINK "http://www.velucchi.it/enjoyments/"http://www.velucchi.it/enjoyments/ HYPERLINK "http://ebrain.go.to/"http://eBrain.go.to No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.16/1445 - Release Date: 15/05/2008 19.25 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raosorio at fibertel.com.ar Sat May 17 09:05:13 2008 From: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar) Date: Sat, 17 May 2008 10:05:13 -0300 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Message-ID: <314ac12257a31.482eadd9@fibertel.com.ar> Hi friends, We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the necessity of having an ordered, complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs state of the art in every respect. We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction with Otto Janko this concept was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. Otto informed us that he started some time ago a retro-wiki targeted to build such a source but this initiative had no too much success in the RML. It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I propose to start it again. We agreed with Otto that the best way would be to participate the retro community via this RML in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I understand a very flexible tool) altogether. I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are many problems, articles, Awards, comments, definitions, etc, published all over the world; an endless ocean to be navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with something it's a must to start from its state of the art, but how to get it? Magazines are the original source for most problems, articles, etc, but places like the Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) secondary source; other way, how to put the pieces altogether? This should be started by an Otto's message indicating what we should define first in order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool and this initiative will make sense if the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; other way, it would be an empty vessel. (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully functional; nevertheless we should wait to edit it until some agreement about the desired structure is reached on the RML). Some messages from the retro community supporting this initiative would be very appreciated. Best, Roberto Osorio From oliver.sick at web.de Sun May 18 04:26:17 2008 From: oliver.sick at web.de (Oliver Sick) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:26:17 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Message-ID: Hello, Very good idea. Thanks to Otto Janko and good luck. Some remarks. I think it would be even more valuable, if it would be embedded in a larger chess problem wiki intended fot the larger community of all problemists. Good reasons are: - A wiki would grow faster if more people were involved. And in fact there are other attempts to establish a problem chess wiki (eg. I?ve set up a very very early and raw wiki at cpwiki.oliversick.de, at this stage it is not more than a playground ). Involving a bigger audience helps to promote such an amibitious project like a wiki. - Especially things like fairy chess conditions, author informations,...are of general value for all problemists. If there were several sources for chess problem definitions the real danger of inconsistent informations would be given. - I know of some problemists who are working on a fairy (offline) chess encyclopedia. Perhaps they could be motivated to participate in an online fairy encyclopedia. What do you think? Best Oliver Sick ----- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht ----- Von: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar An: retros at janko.at Gesendet: 17.05.08 15:05 Betreff: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Hi friends, We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the necessity of having an ordered, complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs state of the art in every respect. We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction with Otto Janko this concept was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. Otto informed us that he started some time ago a retro-wiki targeted to build such a source but this initiative had no too much success in the RML. It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I propose to start it again. We agreed with Otto that the best way would be to participate the retro community via this RML in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I understand a very flexible tool) altogether. I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are many problems, articles, Awards, comments, definitions, etc, published all over the world; an endless ocean to be navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with something it's a must to start from its state of the art, but how to get it? Magazines are the original source for most problems, articles, etc, but places like the Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) secondary source; other way, how to put the pieces altogether? This should be started by an Otto's message indicating what we should define first in order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool and this initiative will make sense if the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; other way, it would be an empty vessel. (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully functional; nevertheless we should wait to edit it until some agreement about the desired structure is reached on the RML). Some messages from the retro community supporting this initiative would be very appreciated. Best, Roberto Osorio _______________________________________________ Retros mailing list Retros at janko.at http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros From andrew at anselan.com Sun May 18 05:20:42 2008 From: andrew at anselan.com (andrew buchanan) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 02:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <643808.67914.qm@web302.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, We need a hybrid wiki+database. At bottom, we need to have a *database* of problems which can be searched along various flexible criteria. Existing wikis don't have that requirement. But a pure database, like PDB, is not quite enough because it doesn't allow for non-relational concepts (e.g. chess conventions, articles about pawn promotion checkmates) to be grafted on. A wiki would obviously be ideal for that. All problems should be stored in the database. There should be a facility to get output as a list of FENs, not just a graphical output as in PDB currently. There is then the question of data. Much historical data can be migrated from existing online sources. However I think that priority should be given to established procedures so that that all new published problems (including the "best of" RML?) appear in the system. Over time, one can back fill the historical stuff. Cheers, Andy --- Oliver Sick wrote: > Hello, > > Very good idea. Thanks to Otto Janko and good luck. > > Some remarks. I think it would be even more valuable, if it would be > embedded in a larger chess problem wiki intended fot the larger > community of all problemists. > > Good reasons are: > > - A wiki would grow faster if more people were involved. And in fact > there are other attempts to establish a problem chess wiki (eg. I?ve > set up a very very early and raw wiki at cpwiki.oliversick.de, at > this stage it is not more than a playground ). Involving a bigger > audience helps to promote such an amibitious project like a wiki. > > - Especially things like fairy chess conditions, author > informations,...are of general value for all problemists. If there > were several sources for chess problem definitions the real danger > of inconsistent informations would be given. > > - I know of some problemists who are working on a fairy (offline) > chess encyclopedia. Perhaps they could be motivated to participate in > an online fairy encyclopedia. > > What do you think? > > > > Best > Oliver Sick > > ----- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht ----- > Von: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > An: retros at janko.at > Gesendet: 17.05.08 15:05 > Betreff: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > > Hi friends, > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the necessity of having > an ordered, > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs state of the art > in every respect. > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction with Otto Janko > this concept > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a retro-wiki targeted > to build such a > source but this initiative had no too much success in the RML. > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I propose to start it > again. We agreed with > Otto that the best way would be to participate the retro community > via this RML > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I understand a > very flexible tool) altogether. > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are many problems, > articles, Awards, > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the world; an endless > ocean to be > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with something it's > a must to start > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, articles, etc, > but places like the > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) secondary source; > other way, how to > put the pieces altogether? > > This should be started by an Otto's message indicating what we should > define first in > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool and this > initiative will make sense if > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; other way, it > would be an empty vessel. > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully functional; > nevertheless we should wait > to edit it until some agreement about the desired structure is > reached on the RML). > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this initiative > would be very appreciated. > > Best, > Roberto Osorio > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl Sun May 18 05:34:22 2008 From: joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl (Joost de Heer) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 11:34:22 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: <643808.67914.qm@web302.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <643808.67914.qm@web302.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <482FF81E.6070800@sanguis.xs4all.nl> Christian Poisson's WinChloe already has a database with chess problems in which you can search for themes. Joost From otto at janko.at Sun May 18 08:42:11 2008 From: otto at janko.at (Otto Janko) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:42:11 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901c8b8e4$997ed6e0$5b00a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Hi Oliver & ALL, > Some remarks. I think it would be even more valuable, if it > would be embedded in a larger chess problem wiki intended fot > the larger community of all problemists. This could be a second step. A larger audience may help to add non-retro content, but does not really help to build a wiki/database as intended by Roberto. > - Especially things like fairy chess conditions, author > informations,...are of general value for all problemists. True. We have to decide where to go: Chess in general or primarily Retro. Maybe we should start small, which also helps to establish some structure in the Wiki. > - I know of some problemists who are working on a fairy > (offline) chess encyclopedia. Perhaps they could be motivated > to participate in an online fairy encyclopedia. Can you alert these problemists to join the RML? ~?tt?~ > -----Original Message----- > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of Oliver Sick > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 10:26 AM > To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List; retros at janko.at > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > Hello, > > Very good idea. Thanks to Otto Janko and good luck. > > Some remarks. I think it would be even more valuable, if it > would be embedded in a larger chess problem wiki intended fot > the larger community of all problemists. > > Good reasons are: > > - A wiki would grow faster if more people were involved. And > in fact there are other attempts to establish a problem chess > wiki (eg. I?ve set up a very very early and raw wiki at > cpwiki.oliversick.de, at this stage it is not more than a > playground ). Involving a bigger audience helps to promote > such an amibitious project like a wiki. > > - Especially things like fairy chess conditions, author > informations,...are of general value for all problemists. If > there were several sources for chess problem definitions the > real danger of inconsistent informations would be given. > > - I know of some problemists who are working on a fairy > (offline) chess encyclopedia. Perhaps they could be motivated > to participate in an online fairy encyclopedia. > > What do you think? > > > > Best > Oliver Sick > > ----- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht ----- > Von: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > An: retros at janko.at > Gesendet: 17.05.08 15:05 > Betreff: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > > Hi friends, > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the necessity of > having an ordered, > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs state of > the art in every respect. > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction with Otto > Janko this concept > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a retro-wiki > targeted to build such a > source but this initiative had no too much success in the RML. > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I propose to start > it again. We agreed with > Otto that the best way would be to participate the retro > community via this RML > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I > understand a very flexible tool) altogether. > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are many > problems, articles, Awards, > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the world; an > endless ocean to be > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > something it's a must to start > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, > articles, etc, but places like the > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) secondary > source; other way, how to > put the pieces altogether? > > This should be started by an Otto's message indicating what > we should define first in > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool and > this initiative will make sense if > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; other > way, it would be an empty vessel. > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully functional; > nevertheless we should wait > to edit it until some agreement about the desired structure > is reached on the RML). > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this > initiative would be very appreciated. > > Best, > Roberto Osorio > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From otto at janko.at Sun May 18 08:58:46 2008 From: otto at janko.at (Otto Janko) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 14:58:46 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: <643808.67914.qm@web302.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <643808.67914.qm@web302.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000a01c8b8e6$eead9000$5b00a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Hi Andy & All, I fully agree with you. A Wiki is a thing which in ancient times (a few years ago) was called "free text database". A "real" (i.e. relational) database like the PDB is highly structured and allows only content which is forseen by the designer of the database, while a Wiki allows any content. In a DB the structure is predefined, while in a Wiki the structure grows as content is added. A DB requires restructuring if content originally not forseen shouild be added, and a Wiki requires restructuring after it becomes unstructured. The main difference is that the DB requires restructuring before adding additional content, while the Wiki ist restructured after the new content exists. I already proposed to use PDB as database (in the private mail discussion with Roberto and Nicolas). The Wiki is not intended to replace the Retro Corner or the PDB or other large collections of problems; but collections of problems should be able to reference to the Wiki for explanations which are correct and up-to-date. Just like the links to the glossary in the stipulations of the Retro Corner. Maybe it is possible to integrate a PDB front-end into the Wiki? I have no intention to move the collection of Retro problems from the Retro Corner to te Wiki. However, all the other stuff should be moved: Glossary, book list, article list, tournament announcements (anyone can add a tournament announcement without involvind me!), etc. Another thing I already implemented is the PHP stuff which generates a diagram out of a (fairy) FEN. This was a little bit tricky because the Wiki software does not allow PHP scrips as images. You can find it there: http://retrowiki.janko.at/index.php/Help:Diagrams This also helps to keep the look and feel of the Wiki consistent. ~?tt?~ > -----Original Message----- > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of andrew buchanan > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:21 AM > To: The Retrograde Analysis Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > Hi, > > We need a hybrid wiki+database. > > At bottom, we need to have a *database* of problems which can be > searched along various flexible criteria. Existing wikis don't have > that requirement. But a pure database, like PDB, is not quite enough > because it doesn't allow for non-relational concepts (e.g. chess > conventions, articles about pawn promotion checkmates) to be grafted > on. A wiki would obviously be ideal for that. > > All problems should be stored in the database. There should be a > facility to get output as a list of FENs, not just a graphical output > as in PDB currently. > > There is then the question of data. Much historical data can be > migrated from existing online sources. However I think that priority > should be given to established procedures so that that all new > published problems (including the "best of" RML?) appear in > the system. > Over time, one can back fill the historical stuff. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > > --- Oliver Sick wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Very good idea. Thanks to Otto Janko and good luck. > > > > Some remarks. I think it would be even more valuable, if it would be > > embedded in a larger chess problem wiki intended fot the larger > > community of all problemists. > > > > Good reasons are: > > > > - A wiki would grow faster if more people were involved. And in fact > > there are other attempts to establish a problem chess wiki (eg. I?ve > > set up a very very early and raw wiki at cpwiki.oliversick.de, at > > this stage it is not more than a playground ). Involving a bigger > > audience helps to promote such an amibitious project like a wiki. > > > > - Especially things like fairy chess conditions, author > > informations,...are of general value for all problemists. If there > > were several sources for chess problem definitions the real danger > > of inconsistent informations would be given. > > > > - I know of some problemists who are working on a fairy (offline) > > chess encyclopedia. Perhaps they could be motivated to > participate in > > an online fairy encyclopedia. > > > > What do you think? > > > > > > > > Best > > Oliver Sick > > > > ----- Urspr?ngliche Nachricht ----- > > Von: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > > An: retros at janko.at > > Gesendet: 17.05.08 15:05 > > Betreff: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > > > > > Hi friends, > > > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the necessity of having > > an ordered, > > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs state of the art > > in every respect. > > > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction with Otto Janko > > this concept > > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a retro-wiki targeted > > to build such a > > source but this initiative had no too much success in the RML. > > > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I propose to start it > > again. We agreed with > > Otto that the best way would be to participate the retro community > > via this RML > > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I understand a > > very flexible tool) altogether. > > > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are many problems, > > articles, Awards, > > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the world; an endless > > ocean to be > > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > something it's > > a must to start > > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, articles, etc, > > but places like the > > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) secondary source; > > other way, how to > > put the pieces altogether? > > > > This should be started by an Otto's message indicating what > we should > > define first in > > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool and this > > initiative will make sense if > > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; other way, it > > would be an empty vessel. > > > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully functional; > > nevertheless we should wait > > to edit it until some agreement about the desired structure is > > reached on the RML). > > > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this initiative > > would be very appreciated. > > > > Best, > > Roberto Osorio > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Retros mailing list > > Retros at janko.at > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Retros mailing list > > Retros at janko.at > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From otto at janko.at Sun May 18 09:32:43 2008 From: otto at janko.at (Otto Janko) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 15:32:43 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: <314ac12257a31.482eadd9@fibertel.com.ar> References: <314ac12257a31.482eadd9@fibertel.com.ar> Message-ID: <000001c8b8eb$a8880150$5b00a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Hi ALL Proposal for a way forward: 1. We shold first come to a decision whether we really want to start this project or not. The Project can only be successful if many of you are willing to participate an provide content to the Wiki. 2. We should decide on the scope of the Wiki: Problem chess in general or Retro only (which may grow to problem chess in general later) 2a. We should have a rough idea what information should be put into the Wiki. I already started this on the main page of the Wiki. It's an unordered list - please feel free to add items to this list or to restructure this list. Please do it directly in the Wiki (by means of the [edit] button). 2b. After 2a is completed, we can setup an initial structure. However, this would be a structure "by convention", and additional content can be added freely. 3. For common types of information (e.g. glossary entries, magazine information, tournament information) we should setup an example page. As soon as we are satisfied with these example pages, we can use it as template and start adding additional content. After we agreed on 1., I will create a help page "Wiki editing primer" for all of us who are not familiar with the MediaWiki software. This primer will only cover the basics: - How to make paragraphs, - how to make lists, - how to make titles and subtitles, - how to make monospaced text, - how to make small tables, - how to integrate images, - how to integrate diagrams. We also have to agree on several organisazial issus: - Who is allowed to edit? (all or only registered users) - What about Copyright? (currently: Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial- ShareAlike 2.5 License statement - is this ok for us?) - We need at least two additional admins for the Wiki - any volunteers?) - More to come Best Regards, - Otto Janko [mailto:otto at janko.at] [http://www.janko.at] -- Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, - will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. [Benjamin Franklin] > -----Original Message----- > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:05 PM > To: retros at janko.at > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > > Hi friends, > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the necessity of > having an ordered, > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs state of > the art in every respect. > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction with Otto > Janko this concept > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a retro-wiki > targeted to build such a > source but this initiative had no too much success in the RML. > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I propose to start > it again. We agreed with > Otto that the best way would be to participate the retro > community via this RML > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I > understand a very flexible tool) altogether. > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are many > problems, articles, Awards, > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the world; an > endless ocean to be > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > something it's a must to start > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, > articles, etc, but places like the > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) secondary > source; other way, how to > put the pieces altogether? > > This should be started by an Otto's message indicating what > we should define first in > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool and > this initiative will make sense if > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; other > way, it would be an empty vessel. > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully functional; > nevertheless we should wait > to edit it until some agreement about the desired structure > is reached on the RML). > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this > initiative would be very appreciated. > > Best, > Roberto Osorio > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From Pastmaker at aol.com Sun May 18 10:08:46 2008 From: Pastmaker at aol.com (Pastmaker at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:08:46 EDT Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I would strongly advise against any "best of" listings in a database. It is entirely subjective no matter what we may like to think, and therefore pointless. But it is also harmful to a discipline. Even the "records" we keep (not subjective - - except, of course, as to which records are worth maintaining) are often problematic, the interest in those statistics causing compositions to be misinterpreted as task efforts. For example, I have frequently had comments about the number of retroscreens in a composition, which had nothing to do with the point of the composition (the number, per se, never having been of any interest to this composer). I know that this proclivity to develop statistics has also disturbed other composers. Imagine a central database of online literature with a list of the N best books ever written, or a database of art with a list of the K best paintings. But perhaps I am a hopeless antique, and such things already exist. Please don't do it with chess compositions. Thomas Volet ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From otto at janko.at Sun May 18 10:28:22 2008 From: otto at janko.at (Otto Janko) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:28:22 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000701c8b8f3$6f3224a0$5b00a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Hi Tom, Hm - the "best of" / "record lists" are already there, and are also published in chess magazines. For example, the type A/B/C/D last move records list. Why is wrong to put these lists into a Wiki? Not doing wo will not make the existing lists disapear. There seems to be a demand to have such lists. "record lists" and "best of" lists are different. Maybe the FIDE albums come near to "best of" lists. And the goal of every tournament is to compile a "best of" list based on the opinion of the judge (from a limited number of problems). ~?tt?~ _____ From: retros-bounces at janko.at [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of Pastmaker at aol.com Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:09 PM To: andrew at anselan.com; retros at janko.at Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Dear colleagues, I would strongly advise against any "best of" listings in a database. It is entirely subjective no matter what we may like to think, and therefore pointless. But it is also harmful to a discipline. Even the "records" we keep (not subjective - - except, of course, as to which records are worth maintaining) are often problematic, the interest in those statistics causing compositions to be misinterpreted as task efforts. For example, I have frequently had comments about the number of retroscreens in a composition, which had nothing to do with the point of the composition (the number, per se, never having been of any interest to this composer). I know that this proclivity to develop statistics has also disturbed other composers. Imagine a central database of online literature with a list of the N best books ever written, or a database of art with a list of the K best paintings. But perhaps I am a hopeless antique, and such things already exist. Please don't do it with chess compositions. Thomas Volet ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From raosorio at fibertel.com.ar Sun May 18 11:20:07 2008 From: raosorio at fibertel.com.ar (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:20:07 -0300 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Message-ID: <295af3e152809.48301ef7@fibertel.com.ar> Hi Otto and all, 1. I think we should assume we want to start the project. 2. I propose to start with only retro as scope in order to be effective; a too pretentious starting is a risk to fall into paralysis since too many things should be considered. The scope could be extended later. 2a. An active participation is necessary here; personally, I would need to see the wiki functioning to fully understand the point (I assume that Informal Tourneys and their Awards will be included in Retro Tourneys). As to the point that Tom remarked, I agree with Otto that "records" and "best of" are totally different. Records are well defined within parameters to be optimyzed (and they have in general nothing to do with the artistic approach) while "best" is a risky word. Let's clearly establish that the retro-wiki initiative is just to build a useful tool where all the retro antecedents were easily available; it's not to define positions or opinions pretending to represent the retrocommunity. Best, Roberto Otto's message ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi ALL Proposal for a way forward: 1. We shold first come to a decision whether we really want to start this project or not. The Project can only be successful if many of you are willing to participate an provide content to the Wiki. 2. We should decide on the scope of the Wiki: Problem chess in general or Retro only (which may grow to problem chess in general later) 2a. We should have a rough idea what information should be put into the Wiki. I already started this on the main page of the Wiki. It's an unordered list - please feel free to add items to this list or to restructure this list. Please do it directly in the Wiki (by means of the [edit] button). 2b. After 2a is completed, we can setup an initial structure. However, this would be a structure "by convention", and additional content can be added freely. 3. For common types of information (e.g. glossary entries, magazine information, tournament information) we should setup an example page. As soon as we are satisfied with these example pages, we can use it as template and start adding additional content. After we agreed on 1., I will create a help page "Wiki editing primer" for all of us who are not familiar with the MediaWiki software. This primer will only cover the basics: - How to make paragraphs, - how to make lists, - how to make titles and subtitles, - how to make monospaced text, - how to make small tables, - how to integrate images, - how to integrate diagrams. We also have to agree on several organisazial issus: - Who is allowed to edit? (all or only registered users) - What about Copyright? (currently: Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial- ShareAlike 2.5 License statement - is this ok for us?) - We need at least two additional admins for the Wiki - any volunteers?) - More to come Best Regards, - Otto Janko [mailto:otto at janko.at] [http://www.janko.at] -- Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, - will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. [Benjamin Franklin] > -----Original Message----- > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:05 PM > To: retros at janko.at > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > > Hi friends, > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the necessity of > having an ordered, > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs state of > the art in every respect. > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction with Otto > Janko this concept > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a retro-wiki > targeted to build such a > source but this initiative had no too much success in the RML. > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I propose to start > it again. We agreed with > Otto that the best way would be to participate the retro > community via this RML > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I > understand a very flexible tool) altogether. > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are many > problems, articles, Awards, > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the world; an > endless ocean to be > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > something it's a must to start > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, > articles, etc, but places like the > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) secondary > source; other way, how to > put the pieces altogether? > > This should be started by an Otto's message indicating what > we should define first in > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool and > this initiative will make sense if > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; other > way, it would be an empty vessel. > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully functional; > nevertheless we should wait > to edit it until some agreement about the desired structure > is reached on the RML). > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this > initiative would be very appreciated. > > Best, > Roberto Osorio > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From Pastmaker at aol.com Sun May 18 12:16:46 2008 From: Pastmaker at aol.com (Pastmaker at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:16:46 EDT Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Message-ID: No reason to continue a bad practice. I have never understood the need to rank things that are in the nature of art, and the subjectivity cannot be escaped. ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Pastmaker at aol.com Sun May 18 12:19:13 2008 From: Pastmaker at aol.com (Pastmaker at aol.com) Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:19:13 EDT Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Message-ID: Thanks for the measured view here. I would mention that it is important not to be too zealous in putting a composition in a particular category. Many compositions exhibit several features, some of which may not even have an articulated category. Tom ************** Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on family favorites at AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From afretro at yandex.ru Sun May 18 23:43:15 2008 From: afretro at yandex.ru (afretro) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 07:43:15 +0400 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library Message-ID: <1858841211168595@webmail24.yandex.ru> Dear Roberto, dear all, The idea of a retro-wiki is highly inspiring. Indeed, we should start with something relatively simple. As to records ? surely chess composition is more than ?merely? art; traditions of mathematics-related records date back to many decades ago; it would be ill-advised to impose a ban on them. There is nothing wrong about people wondering e.g. what is the shortest way to mate with a bishop in a SPG. As to the word ?best? ? this one is quite suitable for being banned, as far as any esthetic aspect is involved, no matter how small or trivial it may be. Retroanalysis is, in a way, magic; and we won?t try to determine the best magician among us, will we? One of the issues to be dealt with consists in differences in terminology. For example, Nikita Plaksin came up with dozens of terms back in the 1960s-1980s which are widely used in Russian and Ukrainian publications and which often do not have direct analogues in the West. I included explanations of a lot of such terms/concepts in the Dictionary of Chess Composition Terms published by Mark Basisty; unfortunately, that book remains in Russian only. Yours, Andrey From otto at janko.at Mon May 19 04:23:09 2008 From: otto at janko.at (Otto Janko) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 10:23:09 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: <1858841211168595@webmail24.yandex.ru> References: <1858841211168595@webmail24.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <000201c8b989$937bee90$5b00a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Dear Andrey, > For example, Nikita Plaksin came up with dozens > of terms back in the 1960s-1980s which are widely used in > Russian and Ukrainian publications and which often do not > have direct analogues in the West. Each glossary page should include a table of alias names in as many languages as possible. This is quite common in the Wikipedia. The main page should be in English, and for the aliases we can create "forwards" to the main page. This means that all names are includes in the main index (not only visible in the full text search). I think we should be very careful setting up the example/template page to cover all these issues. > I included explanations of > a lot of such terms/concepts in the Dictionary of Chess > Composition Terms published by Mark Basisty; unfortunately, > that book remains in Russian only. Maybe you can contribute some of them to the Retro Wiki? :-) And, btw: A reference to this book should be included in the booklist! http://retrowiki.janko.at/index.php/Books A first WikiMedia primer is available at http://retrowiki.janko.at/index.php/Help:Primer http://retrowiki.janko.at/index.php/Help:Contents ~?tt?~ > -----Original Message----- > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of afretro > Sent: Monday, May 19, 2008 5:43 AM > To: Otto Janko > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library > > Dear Roberto, dear all, > The idea of a retro-wiki is highly inspiring. Indeed, we > should start with something relatively simple. As to records > ? surely chess composition is more than ?merely? art; > traditions of mathematics-related records date back to many > decades ago; it would be ill-advised to impose a ban on them. > There is nothing wrong about people wondering e.g. what is > the shortest way to mate with a bishop in a SPG. As to the > word ?best? ? this one is quite suitable for being banned, as > far as any esthetic aspect is involved, no matter how small > or trivial it may be. Retroanalysis is, in a way, magic; and > we won?t try to determine the best magician among us, will we? > One of the issues to be dealt with consists in differences in > terminology. For example, Nikita Plaksin came up with dozens > of terms back in the 1960s-1980s which are widely used in > Russian and Ukrainian publications and which often do not > have direct analogues in the West. I included explanations of > a lot of such terms/concepts in the Dictionary of Chess > Composition Terms published by Mark Basisty; unfortunately, > that book remains in Russian only. > Yours, > Andrey > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From andrew at anselan.com Mon May 19 06:20:37 2008 From: andrew at anselan.com (andrew buchanan) Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 03:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro library In-Reply-To: <1858841211168595@webmail24.yandex.ru> Message-ID: <283544.85279.qm@web301.biz.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Andrey, When I wrote '"best of" RML', it was intended as a throw-away line. My inverted commas were intended to suggest that I was not literally talking about elitism here, nor denying aesthetic subjectivity etc etc. I just didn't want to get bogged down in a more lengthy explanation. Here is that explanation. RML like France-Echecs, is more of an "oral" medium than the magazines. Quite often there appears here a sequence of compositions of increasing soundness and accomplishment, which is work in progress towards a "final" representation. Would one want to tediously capture all the intermediate steps, which are often from the same composer, over a period of a few days? I think not. That's all I wanted to get at. There is a necessary editorial role. Magic. Sometimes I've mused about listing for my own entertainment (I doubt anyone else would be interested) 64 metaphors for chess problem composition. Magic is one. Others might include: hill-walking, music composition, driving, birdsong, story-telling, clock-making, love-making, hunting, choreography, juggling, detective fiction, addiction, exploring /harvesting the rain forest, lying on one's back as a small boy imagining walking on the ceiling, and those mechanical puzzles where you have to get 12 little silver balls to rest simultaneously in 12 little indentations. I would welcome other metaphors. I would *love* to learn the Plaksin terminology. Cheers, Andrew. --- afretro wrote: > Dear Roberto, dear all, > The idea of a retro-wiki is highly inspiring. Indeed, we should start > with something relatively simple. As to records ??? surely chess > composition is more than ???merely??? art; traditions of > mathematics-related records date back to many decades ago; it would > be ill-advised to impose a ban on them. There is nothing wrong about > people wondering e.g. what is the shortest way to mate with a bishop > in a SPG. As to the word ???best??? ??? this one is quite suitable > for being banned, as far as any esthetic aspect is involved, no > matter how small or trivial it may be. Retroanalysis is, in a way, > magic; and we won???t try to determine the best magician among us, > will we? > One of the issues to be dealt with consists in differences in > terminology. For example, Nikita Plaksin came up with dozens of terms > back in the 1960s-1980s which are widely used in Russian and > Ukrainian publications and which often do not have direct analogues > in the West. I included explanations of a lot of such terms/concepts > in the Dictionary of Chess Composition Terms published by Mark > Basisty; unfortunately, that book remains in Russian only. > Yours, > Andrey > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From mlists at velucchi.it Thu May 22 10:21:50 2008 From: mlists at velucchi.it (mlists at velucchi.it) Date: Thu, 22 May 2008 16:21:50 +0200 Subject: [Retros] =?iso-8859-1?q?Art_et_curiosit=E9s_=E9chiqu=E9ennes?= Message-ID: Art et curiosit?s ?chiqu?ennes HYPERLINK "http://www.jmrw.com/Chess/Chess_Curiosities1.htm"http://www.jmrw.com/Chess/ Chess_Curiosities1.htm best .marioV -- Mario Velucchi via Emlia, 106 I-56121 Pisa - ITALY HYPERLINK "mailto:mvalg at velucchi.it"mvalg at velucchi.it - HYPERLINK "http://www.velucchi.it/"http://www.velucchi.it tel +39.3487366652 / +39.050502400 fax +39.06233238786 / +39.05061431159 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- Software Analyst and Developer / Computer Mathematician Combinatorics / Number Theory Algorithms field of research Coder - Database Coder - Web Coder / Windows and Linux Environment Maths & Chess columnist and author ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------- HYPERLINK "http://www.velucchi.it/enjoyments/"http://www.velucchi.it/enjoyments/ HYPERLINK "http://ebrain.go.to/"http://eBrain.go.to No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.20/1453 - Release Date: 18/05/2008 9.31 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abrobecker at yahoo.com Tue May 27 05:56:42 2008 From: abrobecker at yahoo.com (Alain BROBECKER) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 02:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Retros] Retro wiki and themes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <749919.81531.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear retro friends, I updated the definitions of themes on the retro-wiki. http://retrowiki.janko.at/ The actualised list, thanks to Bernd Gr?frath & Christian Poisson follows. Don't hesitate to complete/correct. Phoenix : A piece is captured and then a promotion to the same kind of piece occurs. Ceriani-Frolkin : A promoted unit is captured. Schnoebelen : A promotee is captured on its promotion square without having moved after the promotion. Pronkin : A promoted piece moves on the initial square of a captured unit of the same kind. Anti-Pronkin : A piece moves on the promotion square of a piece of the same kind and colour. Switchback : A piece returns to a previously occupied square after it occupied only one other square. Circuit : A piece returns to a previously occupied square after it occupied at least 2 other squares. Valladao-Monteiro : Castling+ep capture+promotion. Allumwandlung (AUW) : Promotion in all 4 figures. Massacre : Almost every move is a capture. At home : All pieces of (at least) one camp seem to be on their home square. ? : Circuit of a piece which is then captured on its home square. The next ones are not retro oriented, but could apply i think. Babson : All 4 promotions by white and black in echo. Black-white duel : At least 3 different moves of the same black piece are followed by different moves of the same white piece. White-black duel : At least 3 different moves of the same white piece are refuted by different moves of the same black piece. Excelsior : A Pawn, initially on its game-array square, promotes. Umnov : White plays to the square which Black has just left. The theme is delayed if White doesn't play to that square immediatly. ? : ? cu, Alain Alain Brobecker (abrobecker at yahoo.com) |_ _ _ |_ http://abrobecker.free.fr/ |_)(_|(_|| ) of Arm's Tech --- On Sun, 5/18/08, retros-request at janko.at wrote: > From: retros-request at janko.at > Subject: Retros Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8 > To: retros at janko.at > Date: Sunday, May 18, 2008, 5:15 PM > Send Retros mailing list submissions to > retros at janko.at > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > 'help' to > retros-request at janko.at > > You can reach the person managing the list at > retros-owner at janko.at > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific > than "Re: Contents of Retros digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Building a complete and friendly retro library > (Otto Janko) > 2. Re: Building a complete and friendly retro library > (Pastmaker at aol.com) > 3. Re: Building a complete and friendly retro library > (Otto Janko) > 4. Building a complete and friendly retro library > (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 15:32:43 +0200 > From: "Otto Janko" > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > retro library > To: "'The Retrograde Analysis Mailing > List'" > Message-ID: > <000001c8b8eb$a8880150$5b00a8c0 at ww300.siemens.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Hi ALL > > Proposal for a way forward: > > 1. We shold first come to a decision whether we really want > to start this > project or not. The Project can only be successful if many > of you are > willing to participate an provide content to the Wiki. > > 2. We should decide on the scope of the Wiki: Problem chess > in general or > Retro only (which may grow to problem chess in general > later) > > 2a. We should have a rough idea what information should be > put into the > Wiki. I already started this on the main page of the Wiki. > It's an unordered > list - please feel free to add items to this list or to > restructure this > list. Please do it directly in the Wiki (by means of the > [edit] button). > > 2b. After 2a is completed, we can setup an initial > structure. However, this > would be a structure "by convention", and > additional content can be added > freely. > > 3. For common types of information (e.g. glossary entries, > magazine > information, tournament information) we should setup an > example page. As > soon as we are satisfied with these example pages, we can > use it as template > and start adding additional content. > > After we agreed on 1., I will create a help page "Wiki > editing primer" for > all of us who are not familiar with the MediaWiki software. > This primer will > only cover the basics: > - How to make paragraphs, > - how to make lists, > - how to make titles and subtitles, > - how to make monospaced text, > - how to make small tables, > - how to integrate images, > - how to integrate diagrams. > > We also have to agree on several organisazial issus: > > - Who is allowed to edit? (all or only registered users) > - What about Copyright? (currently: Creative Commons > Attribution-NonCommercial- > ShareAlike 2.5 License statement - is this ok for us?) > - We need at least two additional admins for the Wiki - any > volunteers?) > - More to come > > Best Regards, > > - Otto Janko [mailto:otto at janko.at] [http://www.janko.at] > -- Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain > security, > - will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. [Benjamin > Franklin] > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of > raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:05 PM > > To: retros at janko.at > > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > retro library > > > > > > Hi friends, > > > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the > necessity of > > having an ordered, > > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs > state of > > the art in every respect. > > > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction > with Otto > > Janko this concept > > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a > retro-wiki > > targeted to build such a > > source but this initiative had no too much success in > the RML. > > > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I > propose to start > > it again. We agreed with > > Otto that the best way would be to participate the > retro > > community via this RML > > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I > > understand a very flexible tool) altogether. > > > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are > many > > problems, articles, Awards, > > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the > world; an > > endless ocean to be > > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > > > something it's a must to start > > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, > > articles, etc, but places like the > > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) > secondary > > source; other way, how to > > put the pieces altogether? > > > > This should be started by an Otto's message > indicating what > > we should define first in > > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool > and > > this initiative will make sense if > > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; > other > > way, it would be an empty vessel. > > > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully > functional; > > nevertheless we should wait > > to edit it until some agreement about the desired > structure > > is reached on the RML). > > > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this > > > initiative would be very appreciated. > > > > Best, > > Roberto Osorio > > _______________________________________________ > > Retros mailing list > > Retros at janko.at > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:08:46 EDT > From: Pastmaker at aol.com > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > retro library > To: andrew at anselan.com, retros at janko.at > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Dear colleagues, > > I would strongly advise against any "best of" > listings in a database. It is > entirely subjective no matter what we may like to think, > and therefore > pointless. But it is also harmful to a discipline. > > Even the "records" we keep (not subjective - - > except, of course, as to which > records are worth maintaining) are often problematic, the > interest in those > statistics causing compositions to be misinterpreted as > task efforts. For > example, I have frequently had comments about the number of > retroscreens in a > composition, which had nothing to do with the point of the > composition (the > number, per se, never having been of any interest to this > composer). I know that > this proclivity to develop statistics has also disturbed > other composers. > > Imagine a central database of online literature with a list > of the N best > books ever written, or a database of art with a list of the > K best paintings. > But perhaps I am a hopeless antique, and such things > already exist. > > Please don't do it with chess compositions. > > Thomas Volet > > > > > > > ************** > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on > family > favorites at AOL Food. > > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:28:22 +0200 > From: "Otto Janko" > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > retro library > To: "'The Retrograde Analysis Mailing > List'" , > > Message-ID: > <000701c8b8f3$6f3224a0$5b00a8c0 at ww300.siemens.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi Tom, > > Hm - the "best of" / "record lists" are > already there, and are also > published in chess magazines. For example, the type A/B/C/D > last move > records list. Why is wrong to put these lists into a Wiki? > Not doing wo will > not make the existing lists disapear. There seems to be a > demand to have > such lists. > > "record lists" and "best of" lists are > different. Maybe the FIDE albums come > near to "best of" lists. And the goal of every > tournament is to compile a > "best of" list based on the opinion of the judge > (from a limited number of > problems). > > ~?tt?~ > > > _____ > > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of > Pastmaker at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:09 PM > To: andrew at anselan.com; retros at janko.at > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > retro library > > > > Dear colleagues, > > I would strongly advise against any "best of" > listings in a database. It is > entirely subjective no matter what we may like to think, > and therefore > pointless. But it is also harmful to a discipline. > > Even the "records" we keep (not subjective - - > except, of course, as to > which records are worth maintaining) are often problematic, > the interest in > those statistics causing compositions to be misinterpreted > as task efforts. > For example, I have frequently had comments about the > number of retroscreens > in a composition, which had nothing to do with the point of > the composition > (the number, per se, never having been of any interest to > this composer). I > know that this proclivity to develop statistics has also > disturbed other > composers. > > Imagine a central database of online literature with a list > of the N best > books ever written, or a database of art with a list of the > K best > paintings. But perhaps I am a hopeless antique, and such > things already > exist. > > Please don't do it with chess compositions. > > Thomas Volet > > > > > > > ************** > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on > family favorites at > AOL Food. > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:20:07 -0300 > From: > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro > library > To: retros at janko.at > Message-ID: <295af3e152809.48301ef7 at fibertel.com.ar> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi Otto and all, > > 1. I think we should assume we want to start the project. > > 2. I propose to start with only retro as scope in order to > be effective; a too pretentious > starting is a risk to fall into paralysis since too many > things should be considered. > The scope could be extended later. > > 2a. An active participation is necessary here; personally, > I would need to see the > wiki functioning to fully understand the point (I assume > that Informal Tourneys and > their Awards will be included in Retro Tourneys). > > As to the point that Tom remarked, I agree with Otto that > "records" and "best of" are > totally different. Records are well defined within > parameters to be optimyzed (and > they have in general nothing to do with the artistic > approach) while "best" is a risky > word. > > Let's clearly establish that the retro-wiki initiative > is just to build a useful tool where > all the retro antecedents were easily available; it's > not to define positions or opinions > pretending to represent the retrocommunity. > > Best, > Roberto > > > > > > > Otto's message > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hi ALL > > Proposal for a way forward: > > 1. We shold first come to a decision whether we really want > to start this > project or not. The Project can only be successful if many > of you are > willing to participate an provide content to the Wiki. > > 2. We should decide on the scope of the Wiki: Problem chess > in general or > Retro only (which may grow to problem chess in general > later) > > 2a. We should have a rough idea what information should be > put into the > Wiki. I already started this on the main page of the Wiki. > It's an unordered > list - please feel free to add items to this list or to > restructure this > list. Please do it directly in the Wiki (by means of the > [edit] button). > > 2b. After 2a is completed, we can setup an initial > structure. However, this > would be a structure "by convention", and > additional content can be added > freely. > > 3. For common types of information (e.g. glossary entries, > magazine > information, tournament information) we should setup an > example page. As > soon as we are satisfied with these example pages, we can > use it as template > and start adding additional content. > > After we agreed on 1., I will create a help page "Wiki > editing primer" for > all of us who are not familiar with the MediaWiki software. > This primer will > only cover the basics: > - How to make paragraphs, > - how to make lists, > - how to make titles and subtitles, > - how to make monospaced text, > - how to make small tables, > - how to integrate images, > - how to integrate diagrams. > > We also have to agree on several organisazial issus: > > - Who is allowed to edit? (all or only registered users) > - What about Copyright? (currently: Creative Commons > Attribution-NonCommercial- > ShareAlike 2.5 License statement - is this ok for us?) > - We need at least two additional admins for the Wiki - any > volunteers?) > - More to come > > Best Regards, > > - Otto Janko [mailto:otto at janko.at] > [http://www.janko.at] > -- Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain > security, > - will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. [Benjamin > Franklin] > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > > > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of > raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:05 PM > > > To: retros at janko.at > > > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > retro library > > > > > > > > > Hi friends, > > > > > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the > necessity of > > > having an ordered, > > > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs > state of > > > the art in every respect. > > > > > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction > with Otto > > > Janko this concept > > > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > > > > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a > retro-wiki > > > targeted to build such a > > > source but this initiative had no too much success in > the RML. > > > > > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I > propose to start > > > it again. We agreed with > > > Otto that the best way would be to participate the > retro > > > community via this RML > > > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I > > > understand a very flexible tool) altogether. > > > > > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are > many > > > problems, articles, Awards, > > > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the > world; an > > > endless ocean to be > > > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > > > > something it's a must to start > > > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > > > > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, > > > articles, etc, but places like the > > > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) > secondary > > > source; other way, how to > > > put the pieces altogether? > > > > > > This should be started by an Otto's message > indicating what > > > we should define first in > > > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool > and > > > this initiative will make sense if > > > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; > other > > > way, it would be an empty vessel. > > > > > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully > functional; > > > nevertheless we should wait > > > to edit it until some agreement about the desired > structure > > > is reached on the RML). > > > > > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this > > > > initiative would be very appreciated. > > > > > > Best, > > > Roberto Osorio > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Retros mailing list > > > Retros at janko.at > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > End of Retros Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8 > ************************************* From otto at janko.at Tue May 27 14:28:14 2008 From: otto at janko.at (Otto Janko) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 20:28:14 +0200 Subject: [Retros] Retro wiki and themes In-Reply-To: <749919.81531.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <749919.81531.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c8c027$6e225360$0301a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Dear Retro Friends, You may wish to subscribe to the RSS feed of the Retro Wiki if you want to get informed about recent changes: http://retrowiki.janko.at/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=rss http://retrowiki.janko.at/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&feed=atom In an RSS noticication you may simply click on the linkt to view/edit the page and add additional information. Before editing a page, it would be nice to log in (after creating a account). Then the name of the editor is shown in the change log, not only the IP address. For example, the themes pages have been created by 195.221.155.2 and no one knows that this was Alain. Should I lock the Retro Wiki for anonymouos changes? --- Regarding the "Themes" pages, if would be nice to include a simple example on each page. Schold we also add some special talks, e.g. "show as many Switchbacks as possibe in a PG"? ~?tt?~ > -----Original Message----- > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of Alain BROBECKER > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 11:57 AM > To: retros at janko.at > Subject: [Retros] Retro wiki and themes > > Dear retro friends, > > I updated the definitions of themes on the retro-wiki. > http://retrowiki.janko.at/ > > The actualised list, thanks to Bernd Gr?frath & Christian Poisson > follows. Don't hesitate to complete/correct. > > Phoenix : A piece is captured and then a > promotion to the same kind of piece occurs. > Ceriani-Frolkin : A promoted unit is captured. > Schnoebelen : A promotee is captured on its promotion > square without having moved after the promotion. > Pronkin : A promoted piece moves on the initial > square of a captured unit of the same kind. > Anti-Pronkin : A piece moves on the promotion square > of a piece of the same kind and colour. > Switchback : A piece returns to a previously > occupied square after it occupied only one other square. > Circuit : A piece returns to a previously > occupied square after it occupied at least 2 other squares. > Valladao-Monteiro : Castling+ep capture+promotion. > Allumwandlung (AUW) : Promotion in all 4 figures. > Massacre : Almost every move is a capture. > At home : All pieces of (at least) one camp seem > to be on their home square. > ? : Circuit of a piece which is then > captured on its home square. > > The next ones are not retro oriented, but could apply i think. > > Babson : All 4 promotions by white and black in echo. > Black-white duel : At least 3 different moves of the same > black piece are followed by different moves of the same white piece. > White-black duel : At least 3 different moves of the same > white piece are refuted by different moves of the same black piece. > Excelsior : A Pawn, initially on its game-array > square, promotes. > Umnov : White plays to the square which Black > has just left. The theme is delayed if White doesn't play to > that square immediatly. > ? : ? > > > cu, Alain > > Alain Brobecker (abrobecker at yahoo.com) |_ _ _ |_ > http://abrobecker.free.fr/ |_)(_|(_|| ) of Arm's Tech > > > --- On Sun, 5/18/08, retros-request at janko.at > wrote: > > > From: retros-request at janko.at > > Subject: Retros Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8 > > To: retros at janko.at > > Date: Sunday, May 18, 2008, 5:15 PM > > Send Retros mailing list submissions to > > retros at janko.at > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body > > 'help' to > > retros-request at janko.at > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > retros-owner at janko.at > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > > specific > > than "Re: Contents of Retros digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Building a complete and friendly retro library > > (Otto Janko) > > 2. Re: Building a complete and friendly retro library > > (Pastmaker at aol.com) > > 3. Re: Building a complete and friendly retro library > > (Otto Janko) > > 4. Building a complete and friendly retro library > > (raosorio at fibertel.com.ar) > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 15:32:43 +0200 > > From: "Otto Janko" > > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > > retro library > > To: "'The Retrograde Analysis Mailing > > List'" > > Message-ID: > > <000001c8b8eb$a8880150$5b00a8c0 at ww300.siemens.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Hi ALL > > > > Proposal for a way forward: > > > > 1. We shold first come to a decision whether we really want > > to start this > > project or not. The Project can only be successful if many > > of you are > > willing to participate an provide content to the Wiki. > > > > 2. We should decide on the scope of the Wiki: Problem chess > > in general or > > Retro only (which may grow to problem chess in general > > later) > > > > 2a. We should have a rough idea what information should be > > put into the > > Wiki. I already started this on the main page of the Wiki. > > It's an unordered > > list - please feel free to add items to this list or to > > restructure this > > list. Please do it directly in the Wiki (by means of the > > [edit] button). > > > > 2b. After 2a is completed, we can setup an initial > > structure. However, this > > would be a structure "by convention", and > > additional content can be added > > freely. > > > > 3. For common types of information (e.g. glossary entries, > > magazine > > information, tournament information) we should setup an > > example page. As > > soon as we are satisfied with these example pages, we can > > use it as template > > and start adding additional content. > > > > After we agreed on 1., I will create a help page "Wiki > > editing primer" for > > all of us who are not familiar with the MediaWiki software. > > This primer will > > only cover the basics: > > - How to make paragraphs, > > - how to make lists, > > - how to make titles and subtitles, > > - how to make monospaced text, > > - how to make small tables, > > - how to integrate images, > > - how to integrate diagrams. > > > > We also have to agree on several organisazial issus: > > > > - Who is allowed to edit? (all or only registered users) > > - What about Copyright? (currently: Creative Commons > > Attribution-NonCommercial- > > ShareAlike 2.5 License statement - is this ok for us?) > > - We need at least two additional admins for the Wiki - any > > volunteers?) > > - More to come > > > > Best Regards, > > > > - Otto Janko [mailto:otto at janko.at] [http://www.janko.at] > > -- Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain > > security, > > - will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. [Benjamin > > Franklin] > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > > > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of > > raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:05 PM > > > To: retros at janko.at > > > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > > retro library > > > > > > > > > Hi friends, > > > > > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the > > necessity of > > > having an ordered, > > > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs > > state of > > > the art in every respect. > > > > > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction > > with Otto > > > Janko this concept > > > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > > > > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a > > retro-wiki > > > targeted to build such a > > > source but this initiative had no too much success in > > the RML. > > > > > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I > > propose to start > > > it again. We agreed with > > > Otto that the best way would be to participate the > > retro > > > community via this RML > > > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I > > > understand a very flexible tool) altogether. > > > > > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are > > many > > > problems, articles, Awards, > > > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the > > world; an > > > endless ocean to be > > > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > > > > > something it's a must to start > > > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > > > > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, > > > articles, etc, but places like the > > > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) > > secondary > > > source; other way, how to > > > put the pieces altogether? > > > > > > This should be started by an Otto's message > > indicating what > > > we should define first in > > > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool > > and > > > this initiative will make sense if > > > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; > > other > > > way, it would be an empty vessel. > > > > > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully > > functional; > > > nevertheless we should wait > > > to edit it until some agreement about the desired > > structure > > > is reached on the RML). > > > > > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this > > > > > initiative would be very appreciated. > > > > > > Best, > > > Roberto Osorio > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Retros mailing list > > > Retros at janko.at > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 10:08:46 EDT > > From: Pastmaker at aol.com > > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > > retro library > > To: andrew at anselan.com, retros at janko.at > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I would strongly advise against any "best of" > > listings in a database. It is > > entirely subjective no matter what we may like to think, > > and therefore > > pointless. But it is also harmful to a discipline. > > > > Even the "records" we keep (not subjective - - > > except, of course, as to which > > records are worth maintaining) are often problematic, the > > interest in those > > statistics causing compositions to be misinterpreted as > > task efforts. For > > example, I have frequently had comments about the number of > > retroscreens in a > > composition, which had nothing to do with the point of the > > composition (the > > number, per se, never having been of any interest to this > > composer). I know that > > this proclivity to develop statistics has also disturbed > > other composers. > > > > Imagine a central database of online literature with a list > > of the N best > > books ever written, or a database of art with a list of the > > K best paintings. > > But perhaps I am a hopeless antique, and such things > > already exist. > > > > Please don't do it with chess compositions. > > > > Thomas Volet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************** > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on > > family > > favorites at AOL Food. > > > > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > /ec4fd9d5/attachment.htm> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 16:28:22 +0200 > > From: "Otto Janko" > > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > > retro library > > To: "'The Retrograde Analysis Mailing > > List'" , > > > > Message-ID: > > <000701c8b8f3$6f3224a0$5b00a8c0 at ww300.siemens.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Hi Tom, > > > > Hm - the "best of" / "record lists" are > > already there, and are also > > published in chess magazines. For example, the type A/B/C/D > > last move > > records list. Why is wrong to put these lists into a Wiki? > > Not doing wo will > > not make the existing lists disapear. There seems to be a > > demand to have > > such lists. > > > > "record lists" and "best of" lists are > > different. Maybe the FIDE albums come > > near to "best of" lists. And the goal of every > > tournament is to compile a > > "best of" list based on the opinion of the judge > > (from a limited number of > > problems). > > > > ~?tt?~ > > > > > > _____ > > > > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of > > Pastmaker at aol.com > > Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 4:09 PM > > To: andrew at anselan.com; retros at janko.at > > Subject: Re: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > > retro library > > > > > > > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I would strongly advise against any "best of" > > listings in a database. It is > > entirely subjective no matter what we may like to think, > > and therefore > > pointless. But it is also harmful to a discipline. > > > > Even the "records" we keep (not subjective - - > > except, of course, as to > > which records are worth maintaining) are often problematic, > > the interest in > > those statistics causing compositions to be misinterpreted > > as task efforts. > > For example, I have frequently had comments about the > > number of retroscreens > > in a composition, which had nothing to do with the point of > > the composition > > (the number, per se, never having been of any interest to > > this composer). I > > know that this proclivity to develop statistics has also > > disturbed other > > composers. > > > > Imagine a central database of online literature with a list > > of the N best > > books ever written, or a database of art with a list of the > > K best > > paintings. But perhaps I am a hopeless antique, and such > > things already > > exist. > > > > Please don't do it with chess compositions. > > > > Thomas Volet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ************** > > Wondering what's for Dinner Tonight? Get new twists on > > family favorites at > > AOL Food. > > (http://food.aol.com/dinner-tonight?NCID=aolfod00030000000001) > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > > > /b344d504/attachment-0001.html> > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:20:07 -0300 > > From: > > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly retro > > library > > To: retros at janko.at > > Message-ID: <295af3e152809.48301ef7 at fibertel.com.ar> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Hi Otto and all, > > > > 1. I think we should assume we want to start the project. > > > > 2. I propose to start with only retro as scope in order to > > be effective; a too pretentious > > starting is a risk to fall into paralysis since too many > > things should be considered. > > The scope could be extended later. > > > > 2a. An active participation is necessary here; personally, > > I would need to see the > > wiki functioning to fully understand the point (I assume > > that Informal Tourneys and > > their Awards will be included in Retro Tourneys). > > > > As to the point that Tom remarked, I agree with Otto that > > "records" and "best of" are > > totally different. Records are well defined within > > parameters to be optimyzed (and > > they have in general nothing to do with the artistic > > approach) while "best" is a risky > > word. > > > > Let's clearly establish that the retro-wiki initiative > > is just to build a useful tool where > > all the retro antecedents were easily available; it's > > not to define positions or opinions > > pretending to represent the retrocommunity. > > > > Best, > > Roberto > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Otto's message > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------------------------------- > > Hi ALL > > > > Proposal for a way forward: > > > > 1. We shold first come to a decision whether we really want > > to start this > > project or not. The Project can only be successful if many > > of you are > > willing to participate an provide content to the Wiki. > > > > 2. We should decide on the scope of the Wiki: Problem chess > > in general or > > Retro only (which may grow to problem chess in general > > later) > > > > 2a. We should have a rough idea what information should be > > put into the > > Wiki. I already started this on the main page of the Wiki. > > It's an unordered > > list - please feel free to add items to this list or to > > restructure this > > list. Please do it directly in the Wiki (by means of the > > [edit] button). > > > > 2b. After 2a is completed, we can setup an initial > > structure. However, this > > would be a structure "by convention", and > > additional content can be added > > freely. > > > > 3. For common types of information (e.g. glossary entries, > > magazine > > information, tournament information) we should setup an > > example page. As > > soon as we are satisfied with these example pages, we can > > use it as template > > and start adding additional content. > > > > After we agreed on 1., I will create a help page "Wiki > > editing primer" for > > all of us who are not familiar with the MediaWiki software. > > This primer will > > only cover the basics: > > - How to make paragraphs, > > - how to make lists, > > - how to make titles and subtitles, > > - how to make monospaced text, > > - how to make small tables, > > - how to integrate images, > > - how to integrate diagrams. > > > > We also have to agree on several organisazial issus: > > > > - Who is allowed to edit? (all or only registered users) > > - What about Copyright? (currently: Creative Commons > > Attribution-NonCommercial- > > ShareAlike 2.5 License statement - is this ok for us?) > > - We need at least two additional admins for the Wiki - any > > volunteers?) > > - More to come > > > > Best Regards, > > > > - Otto Janko [mailto:otto at janko.at] > > [http://www.janko.at] > > -- Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain > > security, > > - will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. [Benjamin > > Franklin] > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: retros-bounces at janko.at > > > > > [mailto:retros-bounces at janko.at] On Behalf Of > > raosorio at fibertel.com.ar > > > > > Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 3:05 PM > > > > > To: retros at janko.at > > > > > Subject: [Retros] Building a complete and friendly > > retro library > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi friends, > > > > > > > > > > We were discussing with Nicolas Dupont about the > > necessity of > > > > > having an ordered, > > > > > complete and friendly source to easily get the PGs > > state of > > > > > the art in every respect. > > > > > > > > > > We were focussed on PGs but after some interaction > > with Otto > > > > > Janko this concept > > > > > was extended to all the retroanalysis specialties. > > > > > > > > > > Otto informed us that he started some time ago a > > retro-wiki > > > > > targeted to build such a > > > > > source but this initiative had no too much success in > > the RML. > > > > > > > > > > It's perhaps a matter of communication, so I > > propose to start > > > > > it again. We agreed with > > > > > Otto that the best way would be to participate the > > retro > > > > > community via this RML > > > > > in order to structure the wiki (which is as far as I > > > > > understand a very flexible tool) altogether. > > > > > > > > > > I would like to remark what I have in mind: there are > > many > > > > > problems, articles, Awards, > > > > > comments, definitions, etc, published all over the > > world; an > > > > > endless ocean to be > > > > > navigated lonely. When one is trying to go deeper with > > > > > > > something it's a must to start > > > > > from its state of the art, but how to get it? > > > > > > > > > > Magazines are the original source for most problems, > > > > > articles, etc, but places like the > > > > > Retrocorner are the natural (and indispensable) > > secondary > > > > > source; other way, how to > > > > > put the pieces altogether? > > > > > > > > > > This should be started by an Otto's message > > indicating what > > > > > we should define first in > > > > > order to build the wiki structure. The wiki is a tool > > and > > > > > this initiative will make sense if > > > > > the retroexperts collaborate filling it with contents; > > other > > > > > way, it would be an empty vessel. > > > > > > > > > > (http://retrowiki.janko.at/. is already fully > > functional; > > > > > nevertheless we should wait > > > > > to edit it until some agreement about the desired > > structure > > > > > is reached on the RML). > > > > > > > > > > Some messages from the retro community supporting this > > > > > > > initiative would be very appreciated. > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > > > > Roberto Osorio > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Retros mailing list > > > > > Retros at janko.at > > > > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Retros mailing list > > Retros at janko.at > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > > > > > > End of Retros Digest, Vol 43, Issue 8 > > ************************************* > > > > _______________________________________________ > Retros mailing list > Retros at janko.at > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/retros > From Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr Tue May 27 15:30:04 2008 From: Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr (Nicolas.Dupont at math.univ-lille1.fr) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 21:30:04 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Retros] Retro wiki and themes In-Reply-To: <000301c8c027$6e225360$0301a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> References: <749919.81531.qm@web56208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <000301c8c027$6e225360$0301a8c0@ww300.siemens.net> Message-ID: <1216.195.146.237.149.1211916604.squirrel@mathwebmail.univ-lille1.fr> Hi, Otto said : > Schold we also add some special talks, e.g. "show as many > Switchbacks as possibe in a PG"? I think that the record number and the game (in the form of a Java-diagramm if possible !) must be included in the "records" section. Hence everybody will know it, and can try to beat it. In fact, an entirely subsection must be devoted to switchbacks. For example, I perhaps own the one by a single promoted piece (8.5 GD50), the record for a single piece is higher, the absolute record too, but I don't remember the games... Also, particularly attractive games (I know it is subjective !) should be mentionned and classified somewhere. As an example in the switchback category, Hashimoto's incredible one, showing the "switchbackation" of the entire 8 lign. Best, Nicolas. From joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl Tue May 27 16:12:37 2008 From: joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl (Joost de Heer) Date: Tue, 27 May 2008 22:12:37 +0200 Subject: [Retros] The problemist May 2008 Message-ID: <483C6B35.7080400@sanguis.xs4all.nl> R397 - Dragan Stojnic 4k2r/1p2ppsb/1p2p2Q/bP2S1S1/2P2Pp1/2P2Pp1/2PR2P1/R3K3 (13+12) +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | | . | | . |*K | . | |*R | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | . |*P | . | |*P |*P |*S |*B | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | |*P | | . |*P | . | | Q | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |*B | P | . | | S | | S | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | | . | P | . | | P |*P | . | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | . | | P | | . | P |*P | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | | . | P | R | | . | P | . | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | R | | . | | K | | . | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ #2 R398 - Dragan Petrovic 1s6/2p5/PPP2p2/rprPP3/bsp1RP2/K2ppRP1/SqQp1pP1/kBb1S3 (15+16) +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | |*S | | . | | . | | . | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | . | |*P | | . | | . | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | P | P | P | . | |*P | | . | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |*R |*P |*R | P | P | | . | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |*B |*S |*P | . | R | P | | . | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | K | | . |*P |*P | R | P | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ | S |*Q | Q |*P | |*P | P | . | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ |*K | B |*B | | S | | . | | +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ Circe, Release the position From quarpaz1 at yahoo.fr Wed May 28 05:15:41 2008 From: quarpaz1 at yahoo.fr (Paul R) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 09:15:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [Retros] Switchbacks in PGs Message-ID: <835610.56996.qm@web27607.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, N. Dupont said : >In fact, an entirely subsection must be devoted to switchbacks. For >example, I perhaps own the one by a single promoted piece (8.5 GD50), the >record for a single piece is higher, the absolute record too, but I don't >remember the games... The record of ten switchbacks is P1000601: Unto Heinonen R069 Probleemblad 09/1999 1.g4 c5 2. g5 Sc6 3. g6 Tb8 4. gxh7 g5 5. Sf3 Lh6 6. Tg1 Kf8 7. Tg4 De8 8. Tc4 g4 9. e4 g3 10. e5 g2 11. e6 g1=T 12. exd7 Tg3 13. d8=D Lh3 14. b4 Lxf1 15. b5 Lh3 16. b6 Lc8 17. bxa7 e6 18. a8=D Sge7 19. Da4 Thg8 20. h8=L Ta8 21. Ld4 Th8 22. Sa3 Sg8 23. Df6 Dd8 24. Tb1 Ke8 25. Tb5 Lf8 26. Ta5 b5 27. Sg1 b4 28. Ddf3 b3 29. Db4 b2 30. Dfb3 b1=T 31. f3 Ta1 32. Sb1 Sb8 10 Switchbacks (alle 8 schwarzen Steine, 7 davon ohne Schlag; wSg1, wSb1) The record of six switchbacks without captures is P1068530: Satoshi Hashimoto Probleemblad 06/2005 1.g4 d5 2. Lg2 d4 3. Lc6+ Sd7 4. Lb5 c6 5. f3 Da5 6. Kf2 Sb6 7. Kg3 Kd7 8. Kh4 g5+ 9. Kh5 Lg7 10. Sa3 Le5 11. Sc4 Sf6+ 12. Kh6 Ke6 13. Kg7 Sg8+ 14. Kf8 Lg7+ 15. Ke8 Lf8 16. Kd8 Ld7+ 17. Kc7 Td8 18. a3 Lc8 19. Kb8 Kd7 20. Se5+ Ke8 21. c4 Td6 22. Da4 Sd7+ 23. Ka8 Dd8 24. Da5 Sb8 These examples can be found in Switchbacks dans les parties justificatives - Quartz29/2006 Best regards, Paul ********************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? En finir avec le spam? Yahoo! Mail vous offre la meilleure protection possible contre les messages non sollicit?s http://mail.yahoo.fr Yahoo! Mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From abrobecker at yahoo.com Wed May 28 05:21:18 2008 From: abrobecker at yahoo.com (Alain BROBECKER) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 02:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Retros] The problemist May 2008 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <531589.14869.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Dear retro fans, Sorry for previous mail with inlined copy of many messages. Concerning the following problem, i have a proof game leading to the position where castlings rights allow two mates in two. Isn't it a cook? regards, Alain > R397 - Dragan Stojnic > 4k2r/1p2ppsb/1p2p2Q/bP2S1S1/2P2Pp1/2P2Pp1/2PR2P1/R3K3 > (13+12) > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | | . | | . |*K | . | |*R | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | . |*P | . | |*P |*P |*S |*B | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | |*P | | . |*P | . | | Q | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > |*B | P | . | | S | | S | | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | | . | P | . | | P |*P | . | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | . | | P | | . | P |*P | | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | | . | P | R | | . | P | . | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > | R | | . | | K | | . | | > +---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+ > #2 From joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl Wed May 28 06:10:28 2008 From: joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl (Joost de Heer) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 12:10:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Retros] The problemist May 2008 In-Reply-To: <531589.14869.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <531589.14869.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080528120821.E83818@router.joost.localnet> On Wed, 28 May 2008, Alain BROBECKER wrote: > Dear retro fans, > > Sorry for previous mail with inlined copy of many messages. > > Concerning the following problem, i have a proof game leading to > the position where castlings rights allow two mates in two. > 4k2r/1p2ppsb/1p2p2Q/bP2S1S1/2P2Pp1/2P2Pp1/2PR2P1/R3K3 White can't castle either if b6 came from c7. This probably should've been published with 'pRA', but I can't remember having seen it under the diagram. I'll check when I'm at home again. Joost From elkies at math.harvard.edu Wed May 28 11:33:51 2008 From: elkies at math.harvard.edu (Noam Elkies) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 11:33:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Retros] The problemist May 2008 Message-ID: <20080528153351.4B4DAF5E5@abel.math.harvard.edu> Alain> Concerning the following problem, i have a proof game leading to Alain> the position where castlings rights allow two mates in two. Alain> 4k2r/1p2ppsb/1p2p2Q/bP2S1S1/2P2Pp1/2P2Pp1/2PR2P1/R3K3 Joost> White can't castle either if b6 came from c7. Note too that the forward play here is not as transparent as is usual for such problems. The try 1 Rad1? (2 Rd8#) fails not because of 1...0-0? (2 Qxh7#) but because 1...Bxc3 pins Rd2; thus White's reason for preferring 1.0-0-0 is to get out of the prospective pin, not to prove 1...0-0 is impossible as one typically expects in such problems. The try 1 Sexf7? (same threat and answer to 1 0-0) fails to 1...Bd3!. 1 Sgxf7 (same threat) deals with both Bishop defenses (1...Bxc3/Bd3 2 Ra8/Qxh8#) but not with 1...0-0. So the choice between 1 0-0-0 and 1 Sgxf7 depends on the history of the diagram. NDE From joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl Wed May 28 11:41:43 2008 From: joost at sanguis.xs4all.nl (Joost de Heer) Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 17:41:43 +0200 Subject: [Retros] The problemist May 2008 In-Reply-To: <20080528153351.4B4DAF5E5@abel.math.harvard.edu> References: <20080528153351.4B4DAF5E5@abel.math.harvard.edu> Message-ID: <483D7D37.4020507@sanguis.xs4all.nl> Noam Elkies schreef: > Alain> Concerning the following problem, i have a proof game leading to > Alain> the position where castlings rights allow two mates in two. > > Alain> 4k2r/1p2ppsb/1p2p2Q/bP2S1S1/2P2Pp1/2P2Pp1/2PR2P1/R3K3 > > Joost> White can't castle either if b6 came from c7. > > Note too that the forward play here is not as transparent as is usual > for such problems. The try 1 Rad1? (2 Rd8#) fails not because of > 1...0-0? (2 Qxh7#) but because 1...Bxc3 pins Rd2; thus White's reason > for preferring 1.0-0-0 is to get out of the prospective pin, not > to prove 1...0-0 is impossible as one typically expects in such problems. > The try 1 Sexf7? (same threat and answer to 1 0-0) fails to 1...Bd3!. > 1 Sgxf7 (same threat) deals with both Bishop defenses (1...Bxc3/Bd3 > 2 Ra8/Qxh8#) but not with 1...0-0. So the choice between 1 0-0-0 > and 1 Sgxf7 depends on the history of the diagram. As far as I can see it, black can't castle anyway (his pawns captured 3 times, including the h-pawn, which couldn't have captured since the other white pawns need 4 captures, so it promoted on h8 and then either got captured or it's still on the board as a promoted piece). Joost