[W126 Coupe] 560 SEC cracked engine block . . . Deturned Engines?
Ernie Stephens
stevetsg at msn.com
Mon Nov 8 21:52:23 EST 2010
Thanks Axel, I'll check that switch and wiring. As for the rest of it, I might take the car into a muffler shop and be happy enough with what they can do.
Thanks again,
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: Axel Wulff<mailto:axelwulff at hotmail.com>
To: mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com<mailto:mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560 SEC cracked engine block . . . Deturned Engines?
Hey Ernie,
Yes, the North American engines were seriously de-tuned compared to their Euro brethren.
The US 5.6L M117 V8 put out only 238 hp while the Euro ECE engine was rated at 300 hp.
Getting more power out of the US engine is very difficult as the pistons, camshafts, fuel distributor, exhaust, etc., would have to be swapped out.
Your best option on a US engine is to change the differential. Changing out the US exhaust system can add about 10 hp, but other than that......
Have you checked out your kick-down switch?
There is a switch underneath the accelerator pedal and your transmission should downshift when it engages. If it doesn't, the problem may be as simple as a disconnected wire.
Regards,
Axel J. Wulff
610-731-5453 Cellular
610-572-4611 Home
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: stevetsg at msn.com
To: mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 21:20:43 -0700
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560 SEC cracked engine block . . . Deturned Engines?
Axel,
If I understand what you're saying, the M117 has been detuned for the USA market? That would explain why performance is somewhat unimpressive. I have a hunch that that there is another 15% to 25% of thrust just waiting to be unleashed hiding under the hood.
There was a time when I could floor the pedal and I'd get a boost as if it had been kicked down into passing gear. But even then it didn't seem right; there was a 2 to 3 sec delay before that boost kicked in. I'm not into flooring the pedal but it is nice to know that you have the extra power available if you need it. It seems to me that I lost that passing gear feature when components of my air conditioner were removed and replaced. Have you or anyone else reading this ever experienced anything like this?
Ernie
I
----- Original Message -----
From: Axel Wulff<mailto:axelwulff at hotmail.com>
To: diefenbach at kingcon.com<mailto:diefenbach at kingcon.com> ; mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com<mailto:mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560 SEC cracked engine block
Dick,
Mercedes-Benz made a number of different versions of the M117 engine, depending on the various national rules & regulations around the world.
The engines would also evolve over the life of the W126 cars as better technology came available.
The three major groups are:
- Euro, high-compression, high emissions, high horsepower
- North America, mid-compression, low emissions with catalytic converters and air pumps (California), low horsepower
- Very low compression engines for primitive countries (Africa, China, etc.) with very low quality gasoline. About the same output as the North American engines.
Regards,
Axel J. Wulff
610-731-5453 Cellular
610-572-4611 Home
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: diefenbach at kingcon.com
To: mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 17:40:26 -0500
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560 SEC cracked engine block
I find Marcus' experience intriguing. However, I am wondering if anyone can tell me about all the major differences between US & Euro (would this include Australian and Asian) SEC engines?
Dick
Danville, VT
Very interesting story, Marcus.
I think it's for very different reasons than my problem - I have had no rough idling, my
engine was running 100% for more than three years of ownership (I am the second owner),
and it's almost certainly driving without coolant (caused by a head gasket failure) that
caused my block to crack.
Glad your story had a happy ending, as I hope mine will!
all the best,
Dawid
On 06 Nov 2010, at 12:36 AM, Marcus Johnson wrote:
This is an interesting thread for me as I also had a cracked engine block.
I wonder if there are any parallels in Dawid's case?
It was as a result of mechanical ineptitude, not wear and tear or engine stress.
The 'experts' agreed that they had never heard of such a thing and that the blocks are pretty bulletproof.
I have an Australian-delivered 1989 560 SEC. Blue-black with grey interior, lowered on H&R's and with 18x10 / 18 x 8.5 18" AMG rims.
In my case, this all began after the car began idling roughly. After several things were tried, the diagnosis by Mechanic #1 was that the heads needed to be reconditioned.
They were pulled and found to be very clogged. The car had less than 100k but the previous owner had only ever driven in town at low speeds and not for long periods.
After machining, they were put back on the engine and everything that could also be replaced such as old, deteriorating rubber parts was done at the same time. I expected a smooth idle. But this never happened even after a lot of mucking around. The mechanic believed that the exhaust manifold was warped and wanted to bring in an engineer to check it.
By now, I had had enough and the expenses were piling up. This just didn't seem to make sense. I continued to drive the car and just felt generally cheated and pissed off.
I then took the car to Mechanic #2 who was a 'German car expert'. He looked over the car and showed me that the heads (and the exhaust manifolds) had not been tightened correctly and in places were almost finger tight. So much for following the correct MB tightening method.
As a result, the heads had been allowing enough air in between the block to cause the rough idle. No problem, we can have them machined and dressed (again) and all should be fine. The heads were sent off again and came back with lovely flat and shiny decks.
Once bolted on, the rough idle was better but certainly not 'glass smooth'. He had bad news. The block, most likely as a result of the heads 'walking', had cracked. This may or may not have been repairable, but the engine would need to be pulled down and everything carefully examined. Many hours, many dollars.
The alternative was to find a replacement or reconditioned engine. Fortunately, one was located and installed. And again, my expectation was for as-new performance, idle and overall enjoyment. Nope, still idling rough but just in a different way. By now, six months had elapsed and both my patience and bank balance were wearing thin.
After more inspection, diagnosis and head-scratching, Mechanic#2 declared through his bristly German moustache that he 'vas happy'. Really, what he was saying was 'go away'. I went.
After parking the car in disillusionment for some time, I spied a local MB mechanic and went in for a chat. This guy asked that I tell him little and leave the car with him to go through his checklist. After some time, he came back with a solution. It had been driving him nuts and he was unable to sleep at night. I had actually been sold a high-compression Euro block as a replacement. Which made sense when he did a compression check and the numbers were higher than usual for the de-tuned Australian blocks.
The engine and the electronic management systems were from different parts of the world (no emissions controls for Euro motors that were mandatory in Australia, for instance) and were unable to talk to each other. He developed some work-arounds and the engine and electronic are now on speaking terms. The car idles smoothly and is quick off the mark, much more so than with the Australian 560 SEC engine.
So, this has been a long, arduous and expensive exercise.
So yes, a cracked engine block is a possibility. I know, from painful experience.
My advice is to find a mechanic who knows these cars. They will all say they do and have words like 'Mercedes-Benz specialist' on a board outside their workshop. But finding the real deal is hard. you will probably know by a couple of indicators: they will be in their 50's and their apprenticeship years will have been in the 1980's. And they will be busy and probably not need the work so you may have to wait while they personally service a long queue of MB owners who have discovered them.
My other advice is to think carefully about cutting your losses. I know you love your car, as I do, but this stuff becomes the equivalent of a second mortgage.
Hope you get a good result.
Cheers,
marcus johnson
On 06/11/2010, at 6:33 AM, mbcoupes-request at mbcoupes.com<mailto:mbcoupes-request at mbcoupes.com> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: 560SEC cracked engine block - how?? (Dean Slone)
2. Re: 560SEC cracked engine block - how?? (Dawid Loubser)
3. So, I need a M117.968 Block and Pistons -
www.mercedesengines.net opinions? (Dawid Loubser)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 09:01:04 -0700
From: "Dean Slone" <daslone at saber.net>
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560SEC cracked engine block - how??
To: "Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists" <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>
Message-ID: <EE092F044B574784A12F22D8F856B84D at D2DXLQ51>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
Sorry for your troubles but maybe we can help each other.
I do not know where you are located but one of your options might be to buy
my 1981 500SEC, chassis 000474.
Some particulars on my car at:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1446405-1983-euro-500-sec-lorinser-post.html
Don't let the 1983 vin number fool you as it has all US officials for 27
years. If anyone in Germany has access to old registration records and vin
numbers, I would like to know who owned WDB12604412000474 in 1983-1984,
BEFORE being imported to the US of A. Interpol is not interested as I am
not a police official.
No rust through or major damage, just small dings that I have found. Rusty
spots are only surface caused by cracks in the paint. Come and get it, I am
ready to deal.
DazzleOne (DASlone)
SLONE REALTY
DEAN SLONE - Broker/Owner
P.O. Box 5291 - Eureka, CA 95502
Broker at SloneRealty.com
daslone at saber.net
(707) 499-4999
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dawid Loubser" <dawidl at solms.co.za>
To: "Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists" <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560SEC cracked engine block - how??
Attila, if what you are saying is correct, that's likely
the cause. Its very possible that enough coolant escaped while
I moved the car to a safe spot for this to happen.
Darn, an expensive lesson to learn! I'm going to survey my
options and contact some people after the week-end.
Dawid
On 04 Nov 2010, at 11:02 PM, Attila wrote:
You were likely down on your coolant, quite a bit. Your
warning light should have come on, long before the block
cracked. You can run these 117 engines for 30 seconds,
without any coolant. That's it, no more. In the States
there are about 3 reputable rebuilders who will take yours
as exchange and send you a rebuild, at around $5k to 6k.
They may be able to build you a Euro version, for about
the same. It's worth asking, in these economic times. Of
course, it would be great fun to custom build your own.
I wouldn't take a chance on any of the original parts,
even if all tests come back positive.
-----Original Message-----
From: mbcoupes-bounces at mbcoupes.com
[mailto:mbcoupes-bounces at mbcoupes.com ]
On Behalf Of Dawid Loubser
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:34 PM
To: Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists
Subject: [W126 Coupe] 560SEC cracked engine block - how??
Well, it's happened -
Without any particular overheating, or other problems, my regularly-
maintained
1990 560SEC Euro has developed a crack in the engine block (my
mechanic just showed
it to me today) and thus needs to be replaced (at immense cost,
obviously). He will
present the options to me tomorrow. Basically, my car did start to
overheat, and steamed
out of the exhaust, but I immediately stopped driving the car, and
towed it to my local
specialist. I can't believe it overheated for long enough to cause
this sort of damage,
I barely expected a ruptured head gasket.
This all comes as a bit of a shock to me, I know this is going to be
incredibly expensive
to sort out. I would like some opinion from the experts around here -
has this happened to
you? Why would this happen?
I am looking at other options, such as simply finding a good other
engine (which I might
have a good lead on) - but honestly speaking, I am still in a bit of
shock.
kind regards to you all (I've been a lurker on this wonderful list for
a *long* time - too long,
in fact)
Dawid
The MB Coupes Website!
W126 SEC Mailing List
Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.
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W126 SEC Mailing List
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:14:35 +0200
From: Dawid Loubser <dawidl at solms.co.za>
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560SEC cracked engine block - how??
To: Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>
Message-ID: <8417D013-26A9-4F27-B7A4-21FDAF48329F at solms.co.za>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
Thank you Dean - you are not the first list member to contact me with
an offer
to sell his car to me! Fact is, I have no intention of getting rid of
my SEC, and
even the most expensive engine repair job will not cost as much as
replacing
my (mint) 1990 560SEC.
Also, as per my original e-mail, I am in South Africa, so it's not
possible for me
to bring a whole car over here (though I might have to get a rebuilt
engine block
from the US!) and I really wouldn't trade my car for an earlier-
generation SEC.
all the best,
Dawid
On 05 Nov 2010, at 6:01 PM, Dean Slone wrote:
Sorry for your troubles but maybe we can help each other.
I do not know where you are located but one of your options might be
to buy my 1981 500SEC, chassis 000474.
Some particulars on my car at:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1446405-1983-euro-500-sec-lorinser-post.html
Don't let the 1983 vin number fool you as it has all US officials
for 27 years. If anyone in Germany has access to old registration
records and vin numbers, I would like to know who owned
WDB12604412000474 in 1983-1984, BEFORE being imported to the US of
A. Interpol is not interested as I am not a police official.
No rust through or major damage, just small dings that I have
found. Rusty spots are only surface caused by cracks in the paint.
Come and get it, I am ready to deal.
DazzleOne (DASlone)
SLONE REALTY
DEAN SLONE - Broker/Owner
P.O. Box 5291 - Eureka, CA 95502
Broker at SloneRealty.com
daslone at saber.net
(707) 499-4999
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dawid Loubser"
<dawidl at solms.co.za>
To: "Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists" <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: [W126 Coupe] 560SEC cracked engine block - how??
Attila, if what you are saying is correct, that's likely
the cause. Its very possible that enough coolant escaped while
I moved the car to a safe spot for this to happen.
Darn, an expensive lesson to learn! I'm going to survey my
options and contact some people after the week-end.
Dawid
On 04 Nov 2010, at 11:02 PM, Attila wrote:
You were likely down on your coolant, quite a bit. Your
warning light should have come on, long before the block
cracked. You can run these 117 engines for 30 seconds,
without any coolant. That's it, no more. In the States
there are about 3 reputable rebuilders who will take yours
as exchange and send you a rebuild, at around $5k to 6k.
They may be able to build you a Euro version, for about
the same. It's worth asking, in these economic times. Of
course, it would be great fun to custom build your own.
I wouldn't take a chance on any of the original parts,
even if all tests come back positive.
-----Original Message-----
From: mbcoupes-bounces at mbcoupes.com [mailto:mbcoupes-bounces at mbcoupes.com
]
On Behalf Of Dawid Loubser
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:34 PM
To: Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists
Subject: [W126 Coupe] 560SEC cracked engine block - how??
Well, it's happened -
Without any particular overheating, or other problems, my regularly-
maintained
1990 560SEC Euro has developed a crack in the engine block (my
mechanic just showed
it to me today) and thus needs to be replaced (at immense cost,
obviously). He will
present the options to me tomorrow. Basically, my car did start to
overheat, and steamed
out of the exhaust, but I immediately stopped driving the car, and
towed it to my local
specialist. I can't believe it overheated for long enough to cause
this sort of damage,
I barely expected a ruptured head gasket.
This all comes as a bit of a shock to me, I know this is going to be
incredibly expensive
to sort out. I would like some opinion from the experts around
here -
has this happened to
you? Why would this happen?
I am looking at other options, such as simply finding a good other
engine (which I might
have a good lead on) - but honestly speaking, I am still in a bit of
shock.
kind regards to you all (I've been a lurker on this wonderful list
for
a *long* time - too long,
in fact)
Dawid
The MB Coupes Website!
W126 SEC Mailing List
Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.
The MB Coupes Website!
W126 SEC Mailing List
Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.
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Postings remain property of MB Coupes, L.L.C.
=======
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:33:08 +0200
From: Dawid Loubser <dawidl at solms.co.za>
Subject: [W126 Coupe] So, I need a M117.968 Block and Pistons -
www.mercedesengines.net opinions?
To: Mercedes Coupes Mailing Lists <mbcoupes at mbcoupes.com>
Message-ID: <FE4E9219-053F-48E5-98C0-17A159072614 at solms.co.za>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";
DelSp="yes"
Hi Guys,
While I am working on local options, I am pre-emptively also having
a look at sourcing a replacement (remanufactured) block and pistons
overseas (U.S?) for my 560SEC engine that developed a cracked block
after the head gasket ruptured.
What are your opinions of http://www.mercedesengines.net ? Any other
sources
I should be looking at for a decent price? I am sure that shipping it to
South Africa will be very expensive, but there are usually many options,
depending on whom one contacts, especially if one can get it included
as part of a shipment of somebody who regularly brings in engine parts,
so I am not too worried yet.
Any opinions and suggested would be greatly welcomed. Help me get her
up and running again!
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kind regards,
Dawid
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