[Jacob-list] Fw: certified scrapie free

[gotothewhip at aol.com]

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-----Original Message-----
From: gotothewhip at aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 19:18:45 
To: <Jacobflock at aol.com>; Jacoblist<jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Reply-To: gotothewhip at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] certified scrapie free

Thank you Frank.  It was a learning experience for sure a REALLY expensive one!   I know several folks don't admit to what they see in their flock but I am a huge believer in sharing info.  Frank was a help when we had a neurologic lamb that was OCD suspect (but necropsy ruled that out). As per Franks advice we sent tissue off for Tay-Sachs (also negative). We learned a great deal on that case- many of you recall my questions of you all about the lamb "Wobbles".   I think it is just my background, but when one dies I need to know why

Jennifer Tucker
Moose Mtn Ranch
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: Jacobflock at aol.com
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 12:53:39 
To: <gotothewhip at aol.com>; <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] certified scrapie free

Jennifer - Outstanding - Fred Horak
 
 
In a message dated 7/20/2010 5:47:24 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
gotothewhip at aol.com writes:


Scrapie is an interesting situation.  I work closely with the  state on 
this, while my herd is not certified as we have not yet closed the  doors to 
ewes( but we expect to soon)  Due to my position with the  University and in 
Extension, I handle a few field questions on Scrapie's and  the Scrapie's 
program.
 
Let me fill you all in on a little bit of info:
 
First off.. My background... I worked at a University Vet Diagnostic lab  
for many years, specifically running the Scrapie's testing in the  
Histopathology lab.  Then add in my recent experience with CWD in Elk,  and I feel 
pretty well versed.
 
OK, I guess we all need to acknowledge the "disease" for what it is.. a  
Prion based issue.  Prions are proteins, and I could get into a great  deal of 
chemistry here.. but lets think of this protein as something that can  worm 
its way into a system thru amino acids.  It is a degenerative  protein that 
causes the proteins to be disfigured and eventually kill some  cells.
 
Keep in mind that these prion based situations are classified as  
Transmissible Spongiform Encephalpathy  (TSE's)   TSE's are  expressed in several 
species, including humans.
 
CWD- Chronic Wasting Disease in elk & Deer (and concern in all  cervids, 
but basically right now, North American Elk, Whitetail and Mule Deer  are most 
effected, with Fallow deer showing strong resistance if not  immunity)  
Seen as early as 13 months in one of my personal animals, and  rare after age 10
 
BSE- Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy "Mad Cow Disease" , obviously  
effects cattle  Primarily seen in animals over 18 months old.  I am  not aware if 
it is unusual to see in  MUCH older animals (8 yrs  +) or not....I should 
look into this
 
Scrapie- Sheep disease, again seen in animals over 18 months
 
Humans can have Creutzfeld-Jakob disease (pronounced with a long A) and a  
short list of other diseases with similar symptoms.
 
The question of the prions ability to jump species is not fully  understood 
at this point.  There are heavy (not proven) accusations that  CWD is the 
result of captive cervids being forcibly exposed to scrapie  positive animals 
and their fluids.  Again this is not documented to my  knowledge, but is 
definitely an example of concern.  
 
Now lets talk about HOW THEY GET IT.... and again we hit a wall.   For 
example... Prion positive material can be found in most areas of animal  
confinement where a positive animal has been.  It is found in their  manure, in 
water,in feeding areas, in fetal fluid, in the blood, in the  hair....... can 
you see where this is going?  
 
I will speak in respect to CWD, as I said, I am most up to date with  
it.....
 
Our elk herd had been closed for nearly 10 years.  We were a single  fence 
operation.  This is different from many newer facilities that  require 
"double barrier" fencing.  Meaning, the require 8 ft fence may  have an 
additional 8 ft fence on the inside, or even a hot wire fence system  on the inside.. 
basically to avoid contact with animals outside the  fence.
 
So we had brought NO (males  or females) into the facility in 10  years, 
the only additions that had come to the herd were births of  animals.  Now 
keep in mind, that during the 10 years of no new animals  coming in, under the 
previous owner (we had only owned the facility and  animals for 9 months 
when we had the positive animal) there had been 2  unreported deaths.  What 
that means in the elk world, is that 2 animals  died without tissues submitted 
for CWD testing.  Here in Colorado, we are  required to submit at minimum a 
specific piece of the Obex (brain stem) to a  testing lab for CWD testing.  
The animals that were unreported were found  too late to submit tissue on.. 
meaning they were rotten
 
We had a young cow go missing from the herd in early July last  year.  We 
didn't panic the first 12 hrs as she was likely calving down in  the 
Sagebrush and hid out with her calf.  At 24 hrs we went looking for  her, and she 
was found 6 hrs later QUITE dead.  We removed her entire  head and submitted 
it.  It came back positive.
 
We went into quarantine, and volunteered for a new testing practice of  
elk.  While not a legal test, it is a live test of lymph tissue.  We  had all 
of our animals tested using lymph tissue for rectal biopsy.  We  had 3 
additional animals test positive.  A Yearling Bull, A Yearling Cow  and an Aged 
Cow.  We opted to kill off the entire herd to meet state  standards.  
 
We did quite a bit of testing on the facility.  CWD prion was found  in the 
creek water that flowed into the ranch.  Prion was also found in  manure, 
and on mineral/protein licks we provided.  Saliva samples did not  show 
prions from any of the animals (I thought this was curious) 
 
Something to keep in mind... Prions are difficult to reasonably  kill.  
Basically we abandoned the ranch and all of the equipment on  it.  We are 
letting it set vacant for an unknown period of time, hoping  we will find some 
answers to future options.  The State believed that our  animals came into 
contact with CWD from a positive animal OUTSIDE the  fence.  Meaning.. that 
animal may have had nose to nose contact with our  animals, or our animals may 
have drank or somehow eaten the prion.This is the  typical suspect as young 
elk calves (like lambs) eat dirt and chew on  everything.
 
The State was able to allow us to sell the meat off of some of the  animals 
to individuals who were aware of the CWD status on the ranch.   The animals 
we were able to use for meat were those who tested negative on 3  
consecutive tests
-Rectal Biopsy
-Obex
-Lymph Nodes (also collected at butcher) 
 
These tissues were all tested, and if all 3 came back negative, the  person 
could own that carcass... it was an interesting process with one final  
hurdle.. We had a yearling heifer  (Orange 55) test NEGATIVE on Rectal  Biopsy, 
NEGATIVE on obex (Which is considered the "Gold Standard") and then  
POSITIVE on lymph tissue.  That animal was donated to CSU for research,  and they 
believe that they may have seen the earliest infection of an elk in  that 
animal.
 
What we saw as owners:  The positive animals behaved  diffidently.  Even 
Orange 55, when we drove out to the pasture to shoot  her, she behaved 
differently than any of the others... My husband said "I bet  she is positive" of 
which I laughed off as she had been neg on rectal.
 
 
So... I guess you all can estimate that I am pretty wary of the Scrapie  
status of my animals... So what do I do and what does it mean?
 
First off,.... I am a HUGE believer in the Necropsy process.  I want  to 
know WHY an animal died, and what I can learn from that death.   Necropsy can 
be a fair cost to the owner, who has no hope of recovering that  cost, but 
if it prevents a disease or situation in the future, it will pay for  itself. 
 
 
Second:  I test my herd for the codon 136, 154 & 171.  I  first did my 
rams, and aged ewes, and am working my way thru the flock,   here is a link to 
an APHIS article, while a bit dated, still correct on most  accounts..  
_http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_diseases/scrapie/downloads/s
crapie_genetics.pdf_ 
(http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/animal_diseases/scrapie/downloads/scrapie_genetics.pdf) 
 
So lets sum this up... We dont know How they get it, We dont know where  
they get it, and we cant really kill it.... But as sheep owners we have a  
tool (something the cattlemen and Elk breeders dont have) to test the  
susceptibility of the disease in our herd and a method of improving  that.  All of 
my current rams are AARR, so I have a good deal of  confidence in what they 
produce, and I have yet to see a Jacob sheep be QQ in  my herd.  I would love 
to hear from anyone that has had a QQ  Jacob....
 
 
Hopefully this wasn't too much of a ramble, as I have taken a number of  
phone calls (and a pleasant interruption of an ice cream break) during typing  
all of this out! 
 
 
Jennifer Tucker
Moose Mtn Ranch
Bennett, CO
_www.MooseMtnRanch.com_ (http://www.moosemtnranch.com/) 
 





-----Original  Message-----
From: Betty Berlenbach <lambfarm at tds.net>
To:  BIDEWEE at aol.com; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Sent: Tue, Jul 20, 2010 3:11  pm
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] certified scrapie free


Thanks, Karen, that makes great sense!  

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  BIDEWEE at aol.com  
To: lambfarm at tds.net  ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com  
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2010 1:05  PM
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] certified  scrapie free


Hi Betty,
In theory, the longest it would take for signs/symptoms of scrape to  
appear in live animals is 5 years.  The current theory for  transmission is that 
scrapie is passed from mother to lambs via birth  fluids.  Apparently it's 
also possible for other animals housed in  the same area to be infected from 
the birth fluids.  
 
When you're enrolled In the voluntary scrapie program, a state vet  comes 
out once a year to inspect your flock for signs of  scrapie.  Enrolled flocks 
must provide the USDA  with annual records (complete with names and contact 
info) of all  incoming and outgoing sheep.  In addition, all farm  born 
animals over 18 months must be tagged and added to the flock  'inventory' and 
cause of death must be provided for all deceased  animals.  
 
To be certified in the voluntary program, a flock must go  5 years without 
signs/symptoms of scrapie appearing in the flock and  without adding any 
non-certified, unknown or suspect animals.  Rams  don't affect status since 
scrapie isn't apparently transmitted through  semen.  Ewes can be added from 
certified flocks without affecting  status, but if they're added from 
un-enrolled or enrolled (but not yet  certified) flocks, the flock will revert back 
to the status of the flock the  ewe came from.  Example, we enrolled in the 
voluntary program in 2001  then bought our Huntsberger sheep in 2003 so our 
status reverted back to  year 1 since the Huntsberger sheep weren't on the 
voluntary  program.  Our flock was certified in 2008 because we hadn't added  
any ewes from non-certified flocks in the ensuing 5 years.  
 
Obviously a live animal test would be more precise but until an  
affordable, effective live animal test becomes widely available, this  is the system 
the USDA uses to consider a flock to be scrapie free.
 
Hope that makes sense,
Karen Lobb
bide a wee farm
www.bideaweefarm.com
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/20/2010 9:15:14 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, 
jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com  writes:

If  the only way you can tell if a sheep has scrapie is through examing its 
 brain when it's dead, how can a flock be certified scrapie free?  I'm  
just curious as to the process.  I know that the mandatory scrapie  program 
simply has people record who got sold to whom and keep records, in  case, when 
randomly checking for scrapie, they come across a sheep that  has it and can 
then, track it back.  But I'm not entirely sure how  the voluntary program 
works in such a way that it can certify a flock  scrapie-free?  All 
explanations  welcome







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