From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Mon Sep  7 17:17:53 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 17:17:53 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
Message-ID: <4AA57881.6050502@windstream.net>

What's everyone's favorite way of catching adult rams?

Dave likes to corner them, leaving them a narrow escape route, and grab 
them as they run by. I can't do that well as that initial jolt to my 
hand is more than my old hand can handle.

I like getting them in a small area made from panels and then swing one 
of the panels in to squeeze them in a really small space with no room to 
bolt. Then I can catch and hold them without that jarring grab. Or just 
keep them squeezed for worming or shots.

Just curious as to other ways.

Linda
-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From perfectspot at bellsouth.net  Mon Sep  7 18:02:39 2009
From: perfectspot at bellsouth.net (Cathy Robinson)
Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:02:39 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <4AA57881.6050502@windstream.net>
References: <4AA57881.6050502@windstream.net>
Message-ID: <4AA582FF.4050005@bellsouth.net>

The usual method here has always been to get them into a small catch 
area by letting them think there is food involved, and then squeezing 
them down into a smaller area...with no way of escape.  I have to laugh 
when I watch Greg catch Erasmus, who has to be the calmest ram we have 
ever owned.  He is usually interested enough in what is going on with 
the young guys that he will approach to watch and just stand there.  
Greg walks up to him and takes his lateral (kind of reminds me of a man 
taking a lady's arm to escort her) and then the two of them walk 
together to his containment hut where he can be locked up, worked on, 
fed,  whatever.  It's pretty funny to watch!

Cathy
http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html

> What's everyone's favorite way of catching adult rams?
>
> Dave likes to corner them, leaving them a narrow escape route, and 
> grab them as they run by. I can't do that well as that initial jolt to 
> my hand is more than my old hand can handle.

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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Tue Sep  8 13:23:40 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 11:23:40 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
Message-ID: <001501ca30a9$21e8ed80$b411b8a1@RIVENDELL>

Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net> wrote:

> What's everyone's favorite way of catching adult rams?

Uh gees..while scratching them under their chin, I guess I could grab a
horn or two or four.LOL

My son was down visiting yesterday to help with all the firewood from
the wind storm and it took more time for him to mess with his phone for
a picture.than it would have taken to catch one of my boys.  We run the
Australian Cattle Dogs in the ram pasture every evening and all the boys
like to stand in the doorway of their barn and pretend to be the
cheering squad.  As of late, two of them come over to the side of the
corral to have their chins scratched, so I usually set up a folding
chair on one side, watch the dogs run, and sit there scratching the
"mean savage big horned monsters."  How one could EVER think of one of
these rams as a hunting "trophy" just kills me.oh you'd have to be some
sleuthing hunter to bag one of these boys.NOT!!

All ours are halter trained, will stand quietly to have toes trimmed,
stand quietly tied high on a fence if required, draft trained to pull
our covered wagon in the Bighorn Rodeo Parade, and you pretty much hafta
tell'em to MOVE outta the way when changing their water or adding more
bedding.  Not that I'll ever totally trust an intact male (we never turn
our backs on one nor do we "pat" them on the head to encourage
butting!), just really nice to have good mannered boys about.  Now
because the boys get chin scratchies, it is just a matter of leaning
over the corral and rubbing my fingers together and they'll saunter on
over to see what's up.

Can't stand spooky critters, so it ain't uncommon to find me with a
chicken perched on my arm.or head or pulling on my shoe strings trying
to make me trip up.  If you can't work on your livestock, you can't keep
them healthy.  When I first began doing the fun stuff on the Jacobs, I'd
carry around this small nylon bag of grain.  Anytime I "captured" a
victim, they'd end their ordeal with a treat.  Sometimes I'd just catch
them to give them a treat.  Keep 'em guessing!  If your animal is
stressed over being caught, you really do have an ordeal on your hands
before you even get started.  In sheep, because of the fiber, you hafta
put your hands on them to condition score them.if you don't handled your
animals, you are not going to catch the first signs that something is
wrong with them from parasites to weight loss.  Mine get pats every
day.only way a good shepherd can do their work & look after their stock.

Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta
Home of Canada's 1st Grand Champion Jacob Ewe Melody
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From pegvanbeek at msn.com  Tue Sep  8 15:41:46 2009
From: pegvanbeek at msn.com (Marguerite Van Beek)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 15:41:46 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <001501ca30a9$21e8ed80$b411b8a1@RIVENDELL>
References: <001501ca30a9$21e8ed80$b411b8a1@RIVENDELL>
Message-ID: <BAY137-DS35A7DD76987148BF60B0FC7EA0@phx.gbl>

Catching RamsAlex and I have worked out a great plan when they are in the field.  We use cattle panels and corners.  We attach a panel to one side of a corner in a paddock and just drive then up to the corner and close the panel.  Lately the yearling rams we have are no problem to catch just need feed and grab a horn or two.  But sometimes they get wise to our plan and we have to use another corner LOL.

Peg
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: ranchrat<mailto:ranchrat at telusplanet.net> 
  To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com<mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com> 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:23 PM
  Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams


  Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net<mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net>> wrote:

  > What's everyone's favorite way of catching adult rams?

  Uh gees..while scratching them under their chin, I guess I could grab a horn or two or four.LOL

  My son was down visiting yesterday to help with all the firewood from the wind storm and it took more time for him to mess with his phone for a picture.than it would have taken to catch one of my boys.  We run the Australian Cattle Dogs in the ram pasture every evening and all the boys like to stand in the doorway of their barn and pretend to be the cheering squad.  As of late, two of them come over to the side of the corral to have their chins scratched, so I usually set up a folding chair on one side, watch the dogs run, and sit there scratching the "mean savage big horned monsters."  How one could EVER think of one of these rams as a hunting "trophy" just kills me.oh you'd have to be some sleuthing hunter to bag one of these boys.NOT!!

  All ours are halter trained, will stand quietly to have toes trimmed, stand quietly tied high on a fence if required, draft trained to pull our covered wagon in the Bighorn Rodeo Parade, and you pretty much hafta tell'em to MOVE outta the way when changing their water or adding more bedding.  Not that I'll ever totally trust an intact male (we never turn our backs on one nor do we "pat" them on the head to encourage butting!), just really nice to have good mannered boys about.  Now because the boys get chin scratchies, it is just a matter of leaning over the corral and rubbing my fingers together and they'll saunter on over to see what's up.

  Can't stand spooky critters, so it ain't uncommon to find me with a chicken perched on my arm.or head or pulling on my shoe strings trying to make me trip up.  If you can't work on your livestock, you can't keep them healthy.  When I first began doing the fun stuff on the Jacobs, I'd carry around this small nylon bag of grain.  Anytime I "captured" a victim, they'd end their ordeal with a treat.  Sometimes I'd just catch them to give them a treat.  Keep 'em guessing!  If your animal is stressed over being caught, you really do have an ordeal on your hands before you even get started.  In sheep, because of the fiber, you hafta put your hands on them to condition score them.if you don't handled your animals, you are not going to catch the first signs that something is wrong with them from parasites to weight loss.  Mine get pats every day.only way a good shepherd can do their work & look after their stock.

  Chicken UP!

  Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta

  Home of Canada's 1st Grand Champion Jacob Ewe Melody

  _______________________________________________
  Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
  Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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From aztreaz at earthlink.net  Tue Sep  8 17:18:35 2009
From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE)
Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 14:18:35 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
Message-ID: <410-22009928211835883@earthlink.net>

We also put them in a small pen to catch them.  Food always gets them in
there.  Then I grab a horn when I can which leads me to the following
question:

I do have a question about using horns as handles when moving the rams.  A
friend of mine raises Icelandics and never touches the horns.  One time I
was helping her at the local fair and I was holding two rams back while she
put out their feed.  I had each by their horns, one ram on each side of me.
She didn't like that.  I guess I was suppose to wrap my arms around their
neck or something.  Then I would've been hit in the face by the horn curl
or hit in the knees.  Ouch!  I think the belief is that if you grab the
horns or lead them around by the horns then that makes the rams aggressive.
Could be true because I haven't seen an aggressive ram at my friend's
place.  I would rather risk some aggression rather than having my knees hit
when the ram swings his head.  When I grab the horns, they are under
control.  I also use a halter and lead, but I have that in one hand and a
horn in the other hand.  Works for me.  I would like opinions from others
about using the horns to control a ram.  My friend uses just a halter and
heavy lead.

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho



From messen at socket.net  Tue Sep  8 18:12:02 2009
From: messen at socket.net (Mark Essen)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 17:12:02 -0500
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <410-22009928211835883@earthlink.net>
References: <410-22009928211835883@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4AA6D6B2.2000106@socket.net>

I was resisting my reply to this thread because I did not want it to 
sound like I am bragging.  But,A few years ago I splurged and bought a 
really nice squeeze chute/sweep tub/scales system for my Highland 
cattle.  This system has been s useful for all of the animals so many 
times that  I think it was very cheap.  Thee is not enough you can say 
about making the animals have no choice but to think they want to do 
what you want them to do.  I have the setup between two lots so that I 
often leave it open and they tend to think that when they are entering 
one end, it leads out to the pasture.  By the time that they realize 
that I have the exit gate latched, it is too late.  I am at the entrance 
closing that gate also.  The sweep gate is on a hinge, so it is no 
problem to close the area very tight.
I also raise deer and elk and never tranquilize to transport  It is just 
so much easier to handle these animals if you try to make them do what 
they want to do.
For what it s worth.
Mark

From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Tue Sep  8 18:27:21 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:27:21 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <4AA6D6B2.2000106@socket.net>
References: <410-22009928211835883@earthlink.net> <4AA6D6B2.2000106@socket.net>
Message-ID: <4AA6DA49.3050809@windstream.net>

Brag away :-). It sounds like a fantastic tool.

Mark Essen wrote:
> I was resisting my reply to this thread because I did not want it to 
> sound like I am bragging.  But,A few years ago I splurged and bought a 
> really nice squeeze chute/sweep tub/scales system for my Highland 
> cattle.  This system has been s useful for all of the animals so many 
> times that  I think it was very cheap.  Thee is not enough you can say 
> about making the animals have no choice but to think they want to do 
> what you want them to do.  I have the setup between two lots so that I 
> often leave it open and they tend to think that when they are entering 
> one end, it leads out to the pasture.  By the time that they realize 
> that I have the exit gate latched, it is too late.  I am at the 
> entrance closing that gate also.  The sweep gate is on a hinge, so it 
> is no problem to close the area very tight.
> I also raise deer and elk and never tranquilize to transport  It is 
> just so much easier to handle these animals if you try to make them do 
> what they want to do.
> For what it s worth.
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Tue Sep  8 18:37:13 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 18:37:13 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Classes at SAFF
Message-ID: <4AA6DC99.9080301@windstream.net>

Southeastern Animal Fiber Fair is coming up soon - October 23, 24, and 
25. There will be Jacob classes again. Sheep must be registered or have 
a temporary registration certificate (good only for 2009 lambs). If you 
plan to enter (and please consider it!), it's time to get your 
registration paperwork in order. Deadline for entries is October 6th.
Last year was the first year that we had Jacob classes and a Jacob ewe, 
owned by Royal Unzicker, won supreme grand champion ewe.
We had 20+ entries last year owned by 4 breeders.
More information can be found at:
http://saffsite.org/dnn/Livestock/Sheep/tabid/67/Default.aspx
-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us  Wed Sep  9 15:29:37 2009
From: hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us (hobbyknobfarm)
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 15:29:37 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] SAFF show
Message-ID: <0F53AC15B61946D8A8E4D481ED42033F@daron1>

Linda, thanks for bringing this up. I have been thinking about SAFF but am currently preoccupied with the Mountain State Fair llama and sheep shows so haven't emailed about if. I have my one little ewe lamb and a yearling or 2 I could show but that is it for me this year. I hope Elke will and maybe laura will bring hers this year.  Will bring a couple of Jacobs regardless, along with the long wools. 
Elizabeth
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Wed Sep  9 17:42:30 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:42:30 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <001501ca30a9$21e8ed80$b411b8a1@RIVENDELL>
References: <001501ca30a9$21e8ed80$b411b8a1@RIVENDELL>
Message-ID: <4AA82146.9030800@windstream.net>

Tara,

I'd love to see a picture of your rams pulling the wagon. Could you 
share with us?

I have to disagree just a bit here. While I see my sheep every day (many 
times a day), I don't really feel that it's necessary for me to chuck my 
rams under the chin on a daily basis to look after them properly :-)The 
amazing thing about Jacobs is their adaptability. It sounds like they 
thrive with your literal "hands on" approach, but they also thrive 
untended on a remote island, on large ranches with the occasional check, 
on tiny little one acre farms, on medium sized acreage, and about 
everything in between. We get to know our sheep and can usually tell 
with a visual when one needs a more hands on check.  While I do halter 
break my rams, I don't hand feed them.

Jacob Sheep are being raised successfully by breeders who are as 
individual as our Jacobs and who use a wide variety of management 
techniques. There is no "only way" to do it successfully or to properly 
look after our flocks, just as there is no "perfect" Jacob Sheep.

Linda


ranchrat wrote:
>
> All ours are halter trained, will stand quietly to have toes trimmed, 
> stand quietly tied high on a fence if required, draft trained to pull 
> our covered wagon in the Bighorn Rodeo Parade, and you pretty much 
> hafta tell'em to MOVE outta the way when changing their water or 
> adding more bedding.  Not that I'll ever totally trust an intact male 
> (we never turn our backs on one nor do we "pat" them on the head to 
> encourage butting!), just really nice to have good mannered boys 
> about.  Now because the boys get chin scratchies, it is just a matter 
> of leaning over the corral and rubbing my fingers together and they'll 
> saunter on over to see what's up.
>
> Can't stand spooky critters, so it ain't uncommon to find me with a 
> chicken perched on my arm...or head or pulling on my shoe strings 
> trying to make me trip up.  If you can't work on your livestock, you 
> can't keep them healthy.  When I first began doing the fun stuff on 
> the Jacobs, I'd carry around this small nylon bag of grain.  Anytime I 
> "captured" a victim, they'd end their ordeal with a treat.  Sometimes 
> I'd just catch them to give them a treat.  Keep 'em guessing!  If your 
> animal is stressed over being caught, you really do have an ordeal on 
> your hands before you even get started.  In sheep, because of the 
> fiber, you hafta put your hands on them to condition score them...if 
> you don't handled your animals, you are not going to catch the first 
> signs that something is wrong with them from parasites to weight 
> loss.  Mine get pats every day...only way a good shepherd can do their 
> work & look after their stock.
>
> Chicken UP!
>
> Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta
>
> Home of Canada's 1st Grand Champion Jacob Ewe Melody
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Wed Sep  9 20:39:02 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 20:39:02 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] SAFF show
In-Reply-To: <0F53AC15B61946D8A8E4D481ED42033F@daron1>
References: <0F53AC15B61946D8A8E4D481ED42033F@daron1>
Message-ID: <4AA84AA6.3070103@windstream.net>

I'm bringing two ram lambs to show. We need two entries per class to 
keep our breed classes. I'd appreciate hearing from others that will be 
showing, so I can nag, if need be, more breeders to show :-)

Linda

hobbyknobfarm wrote:
> Linda, thanks for bringing this up. I have been thinking about SAFF 
> but am currently preoccupied with the Mountain State Fair llama and 
> sheep shows so haven't emailed about if. I have my one little ewe lamb 
> and a yearling or 2 I could show but that is it for me this year. I 
> hope Elke will and maybe laura will bring hers this year.  Will bring 
> a couple of Jacobs regardless, along with the long wools.
> Elizabeth
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From evelyn489 at aol.com  Thu Sep 10 08:15:11 2009
From: evelyn489 at aol.com (evelyn489 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:15:11 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Starter Flock for sale in MD
Message-ID: <8CC00277AF8B8C2-20A4-37B7F@webmail-m083.sysops.aol.com>


Hi all,



???? Is anyone interested in a small starter flock in the Maryland area?? We have a flock of 7 - two ram lambs born last April, two yearling ewes, one two year old ram who was a grand champion at the MD Sheep and Wool and two older ewes (age 5).?? All papers - all good lines.



???? Email me at evelyn489 at aol.com and I can send you some pics.? 



Thanks!!!!



Evelyn
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From fabrega at pacbell.net  Sat Sep 12 13:40:22 2009
From: fabrega at pacbell.net (Fresia(Francie))
Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 10:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] question please..
Message-ID: <420356.37330.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I bought the Shep magazine and I was reading an article regarding the fact that Jacobs are one of the possibly dying breeds of sheep?? Have u heard anything about this?? Also, if I were to start raising Jacobs, I have 4 Shetland ewes now in a 5 acre plot of land-not all is for them because we live there..I know we can section an area for them..I am not interested in any males at this time, would prefer older ewes that you no longer need..but still supply wool..we live? in NE Wa state...we were gone for about1.7 years but are now back..can you lend me a hand regarding information as to what kind of fencing is the best, sleeping quarters..would a llama help since we do have coyotes, wolves and eagles around here...thank you..for your kind assistance and knowledge....I want to be able? to start out right..Blessings.? Francie

"G-d, don't remain silent!? Don't stay quiet, G-d or still; because here are your enemies causing an uproar; those who hate you are raising their heads, craftily conspiring against your people, consulting together against those you treasure.? They say, "Come, let's wipe them out as a nation; let the name of Isra'el be remembered no more!".? With one mind they plot their schemes; the covenant they made is against you-? Tehillim-Psalm 83:1-6(5)? CJB..(Complete Jewish Bible)
?
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From fabrega at pacbell.net  Sun Sep 13 13:45:00 2009
From: fabrega at pacbell.net (Fresia(Francie))
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 10:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
Message-ID: <84943.21160.qm@web81702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you wonderful Jacobs breeders for all your great information.? I found a local breeder today by chance that has the Miniature Jacobs and has ewes for sale n of course rams which I may pass on for now until next.? I am hoping to be able to see their babies maybe even today.? Many blessinsgs to you, your family and your flocks of wonderful and beautiful Jacobs.........


Fresia(Francie) Fabrega Brevis-Martinez
Parcela Huemul, Casa Machi Hue
Home of Shetland and Jacob Sheep & Auraucana Chickens
Deer Park, Washington, USA
Teh.(Ps. 122)
?
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From rlynde at onramp113.org  Sun Sep 13 14:32:43 2009
From: rlynde at onramp113.org (Robin Lynde)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:32:43 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
References: <84943.21160.qm@web81702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B80EB81EC74C4B15872163BDF043830F@your4dacd0ea75>

This is the 2nd time I've heard of someone looking a Miniature Jacobs this weekend. All of you should know that JSBA (Jacob Sheep Breeders Association) breed standard states that adult ewes are 80-120 lbs and rams are 120-180 lbs. A Jacob sheep is definitely smaller than a lot of the breeds you'll see at any sheep show or fair, so someone might be advertising them as Miniature, but if they're within the standard then they aren't anything different. If someone is advertising that and their sheep are significantly smaller then they are not looking out for the breed. I had  "miniature" Jacob born this year. She was 2.5 pounds compared to her 7 pound brothers. She might have caught up someday, but for me she was a cull. There are a lot of us who raise Jacob sheep and register them and like to promote the breed by selling quality sheep.

 Robin Lynde
Meridian Jacobs
Vacaville, CA 
www.meridianjacobs.com 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Fresia(Francie) 
  To: jacob sheep 
  Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:45 AM
  Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.


        Thank you wonderful Jacobs breeders for all your great information.  I found a local breeder today by chance that has the Miniature Jacobs and has ewes for sale n of course rams which I may pass on for now until next.  I am hoping to be able to see their babies maybe even today.  Many blessinsgs to you, your family and your flocks of wonderful and beautiful Jacobs.........


        Fresia(Francie) Fabrega Brevis-Martinez
        Parcela Huemul, Casa Machi Hue
        Home of Shetland and Jacob Sheep & Auraucana Chickens
        Deer Park, Washington, USA
        Teh.(Ps. 122)
       



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
  Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Sun Sep 13 14:57:21 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:57:21 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
In-Reply-To: <B80EB81EC74C4B15872163BDF043830F@your4dacd0ea75>
References: <84943.21160.qm@web81702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<B80EB81EC74C4B15872163BDF043830F@your4dacd0ea75>
Message-ID: <4AAD4091.8020802@windstream.net>

There's an ad on Craigslist right now for "minature" Jacobs. 
http://spokane.craigslist.org/grd/1371113676.html
It cites the ewe as being 80lbs and the rams 90lbs. 90lbs is abit 
lighter than any of my rams, but I have plenty of ewes around 80lbs. The 
prices for the seller's sheep are $50 for ewes and $25 for rams! They 
don't sound very profitable.
The ad also states that Jacobs were used to mow the grass at the 
Whitehouse before lawnmowers. Any body else ever heard that?

Linda


Robin Lynde wrote:
> This is the 2nd time I've heard of someone looking a Miniature Jacobs 
> this weekend. All of you should know that JSBA (Jacob Sheep Breeders 
> Association) breed standard states that adult ewes are 80-120 lbs and 
> rams are 120-180 lbs. A Jacob sheep is definitely smaller than a lot 
> of the breeds you'll see at any sheep show or fair, so someone might 
> be advertising them as Miniature, but if they're within the standard 
> then they aren't anything different. If someone is advertising that 
> and their sheep are significantly smaller then they are not looking 
> out for the breed. I had  "miniature" Jacob born this year. She was 
> 2.5 pounds compared to her 7 pound brothers. She might have caught up 
> someday, but for me she was a cull. There are a lot of us who raise 
> Jacob sheep and register them and like to promote the breed by selling 
> quality sheep.
>  
>  Robin Lynde
> Meridian Jacobs
> Vacaville, CA
> www.meridianjacobs.com <http://www.meridianjacobs.com>
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     *From:* Fresia(Francie) <mailto:fabrega at pacbell.net>
>     *To:* jacob sheep <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
>     *Sent:* Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:45 AM
>     *Subject:* [Jacob-list] thank you.
>
>     *Thank you wonderful Jacobs breeders for all your great
>     information.  I found a local breeder today by chance that has the
>     Miniature Jacobs and has ewes for sale n of course rams which I
>     may pass on for now until next.  I am hoping to be able to see
>     their babies maybe even today.  Many blessinsgs to you, your
>     family and your flocks of wonderful and beautiful Jacobs.........*
>
>     /Fresia(Francie) Fabrega Brevis-Martinez/
>     /Parcela Huemul, Casa Machi Hue/
>     /Home of Shetland and Jacob Sheep & Auraucana Chickens/
>     /Deer Park, Washington, USA/
>     /Teh.(Ps. 122)/
>      
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     _______________________________________________
>     Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
>     Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>     http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From snielsen1 at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 13 15:39:43 2009
From: snielsen1 at earthlink.net (Susan Nielsen)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:39:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
Message-ID: <20663779.1252870783934.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From Hobsickle at aol.com  Sun Sep 13 15:58:58 2009
From: Hobsickle at aol.com (Hobsickle at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 15:58:58 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
Message-ID: <be0.6464bcb1.37dea902@aol.com>

 
No Jacobs, but I do notice that the lamb in the center front is  spotted!
 
-Dan
 
In a message dated 9/13/2009 3:46:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
snielsen1 at earthlink.net writes:

Here is  a 1919 photograph of the sheep on the White House lawn. Off-hand, 
I would say  there are no Jacobs in the group. Doesn't mean there weren't 
ever any, but I  think the odds are against  it.

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3a50000/3a52000/3a52000/3a52085r.jpg




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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Sun Sep 13 16:18:49 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:18:49 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
In-Reply-To: <20663779.1252870783934.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <20663779.1252870783934.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4AAD53A9.7000701@windstream.net>

Thanks for the link. It would have been fun to see Jacobs in the picture :-)

Susan Nielsen wrote:
> Here is a 1919 photograph of the sheep on the White House lawn. 
> Off-hand, I would say there are no Jacobs in the group. Doesn't mean 
> there weren't ever any, but I think the odds are against it.
>
> http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3a50000/3a52000/3a52000/3a52085r.jpg
>
> Linda writes:
>
>
>     The ad also states that Jacobs were used to mow the grass at the
>     Whitehouse before lawnmowers. Any body else ever heard that?
>
>     Linda
>
>
>>
>
> -- 
> See our farm blog at http://skepweaver.wordpress.com/
> --  
> Peace also takes courage.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>

From rlynde at onramp113.org  Sun Sep 13 17:02:52 2009
From: rlynde at onramp113.org (Robin Lynde)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 14:02:52 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] JSBA
References: <20663779.1252870783934.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4AAD53A9.7000701@windstream.net>
Message-ID: <3D22E58213BF4984AF51550E06027D98@your4dacd0ea75>

The JSBA pedigree search has been updated. I still have  pile of 
registrations from the last month that aren't entered, but the pedigree 
program is updated with everything that I've entered into the computer. I'll 
work on the others over the next week. I know it's helpful to have that info 
for figuring out breeding groups.
Robin Lynde
Meridian Jacobs
Vacaville, CA
www.meridianjacobs.com 


From snielsen1 at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 13 17:12:55 2009
From: snielsen1 at earthlink.net (Susan Nielsen)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:12:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
Message-ID: <11870696.1252876375200.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I suppose someone clever could Photoshop some spots and horns onto them... ;-)

S.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
>Sent: Sep 13, 2009 4:18 PM
>To: Susan Nielsen <snielsen1 at earthlink.net>
>Cc: jacob sheep <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
>Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] thank you.
>
>Thanks for the link. It would have been fun to see Jacobs in the picture :-)




-- 
See our farm blog at http://skepweaver.wordpress.com/
--  
Peace also takes courage.

From perfectspot at bellsouth.net  Sun Sep 13 17:25:45 2009
From: perfectspot at bellsouth.net (Cathy Robinson)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:25:45 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] thank you.
In-Reply-To: <4AAD4091.8020802@windstream.net>
References: <84943.21160.qm@web81702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<B80EB81EC74C4B15872163BDF043830F@your4dacd0ea75>
	<4AAD4091.8020802@windstream.net>
Message-ID: <4AAD6359.2070605@bellsouth.net>

I also saw this ad today before any mention of it on this list.  The 
lambs appear to be normal size from the photos, the ewe seems on the 
small side (maybe just immature / bred as a lamb?), but the ram looks 
weird!  He has some age (as evidenced by the horn development) but his 
proportion is off.   Aren't miniaturized breeds of anything supposed to 
be perfect replicas of their larger counterparts...only sized down?   
There are so many good, reputable breeders of nice Jacob sheep in that 
area;  it should be relatively easy to find more correct examples of the 
breed.   As for Jacobs being used to mow grass at the White House before 
lawnmowers, well let's see.....weren't the first importations of Jacobs 
around the late 60's or early 70's?
Lawn mowers were around WAY before that....growing up in the 50's, we 
_always_ had a lawnmower.   :-)

Cathy
Perfect Spot Farm
http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html


Linda wrote:
> There's an ad on Craigslist right now for "minature" Jacobs. 
> http://spokane.craigslist.org/grd/1371113676.html
> It cites the ewe as being 80lbs and the rams 90lbs. 90lbs is abit 
> lighter than any of my rams, but I have plenty of ewes around 80lbs. 
> The prices for the seller's sheep are $50 for ewes and $25 for rams! 
> They don't sound very profitable.
> The ad also states that Jacobs were used to mow the grass at the 
> Whitehouse before lawnmowers. Any body else ever heard that?
>
> Linda
>
>
> Robin Lynde wrote:
>> This is the 2nd time I've heard of someone looking a Miniature Jacobs 
>> this weekend. All of you should know that JSBA (Jacob Sheep Breeders 
>> Association) breed standard states that adult ewes are 80-120 lbs and 
>> rams are 120-180 lbs. A Jacob sheep is definitely smaller than a lot 
>> of the breeds you'll see at any sheep show or fair, so someone might 
>> be advertising them as Miniature, but if they're within the standard 
>> then they aren't anything different. If someone is advertising that 
>> and their sheep are significantly smaller then they are not looking 
>> out for the breed. I had  "miniature" Jacob born this year. She was 
>> 2.5 pounds compared to her 7 pound brothers. She might have caught up 
>> someday, but for me she was a cull. There are a lot of us who raise 
>> Jacob sheep and register them and like to promote the breed by 
>> selling quality sheep.
>>  
>>  Robin Lynde
>> Meridian Jacobs
>> Vacaville, CA
>> www.meridianjacobs.com <http://www.meridianjacobs.com>
>>
>>     ----- Original Message -----
>>     *From:* Fresia(Francie) <mailto:fabrega at pacbell.net>
>>     *To:* jacob sheep <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
>>     *Sent:* Sunday, September 13, 2009 10:45 AM
>>     *Subject:* [Jacob-list] thank you.
>>
>>     *Thank you wonderful Jacobs breeders for all your great
>>     information.  I found a local breeder today by chance that has
>>     the Miniature Jacobs and has ewes for sale n of course rams which
>>     I may pass on for now until next.  I am hoping to be able to see
>>     their babies maybe even today.  Many blessinsgs to you, your
>>     family and your flocks of wonderful and beautiful Jacobs.........*
>>

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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Sun Sep 13 18:02:42 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 18:02:42 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] craigslist
In-Reply-To: <4AAD6359.2070605@bellsouth.net>
References: <84943.21160.qm@web81702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<B80EB81EC74C4B15872163BDF043830F@your4dacd0ea75>	<4AAD4091.8020802@windstream.net>
	<4AAD6359.2070605@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4AAD6C02.7020800@windstream.net>

I wander around the craigslist Jacob Sheep ads every so often. There are 
many nice sheep from reputable breeders - but there are also some 
interesting ads. One featuring a "Jacob" ram that didn't have any horns 
and was built like a corriedale. Another interesting four horned solid 
black ram. I feel bad when people buy these sort of sheep thinking they 
are getting Jacobs.

Linda

Cathy Robinson wrote:
> I also saw this ad today before any mention of it on this list.  The 
> lambs appear to be normal size from the photos, the ewe seems on the 
> small side (maybe just immature / bred as a lamb?), but the ram looks 
> weird!  He has some age (as evidenced by the horn development) but his 
> proportion is off.   Aren't miniaturized breeds of anything supposed 
> to be perfect replicas of their larger counterparts...only sized 
> down?   There are so many good, reputable breeders of nice Jacob sheep 
> in that area;  it should be relatively easy to find more correct 
> examples of the breed.   As for Jacobs being used to mow grass at the 
> White House before lawnmowers, well let's see.....weren't the first 
> importations of Jacobs around the late 60's or early 70's?
> Lawn mowers were around WAY before that....growing up in the 50's, we 
> _always_ had a lawnmower.   :-)
>
> Cathy
> Perfect Spot Farm
> http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html
>
>

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Sun Sep 13 21:34:41 2009
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 21:34:41 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
References: <84943.21160.qm@web81702.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<B80EB81EC74C4B15872163BDF043830F@your4dacd0ea75><4AAD4091.8020802@windstream.net>
	<4AAD6359.2070605@bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <51D27330EFF1407482ABCB811D49137F@HAL2>

Somebody will have to go back and check, but there were a lot of restrictions on importations in the late 60s and 70s because of foot and mouth outbreaks. The Hesscock animals were brought in then, but spent several years in quarantine in Canada. There were importations in the 50s, and we THINK that there may have been some in the 1890s. Certainly there have been some odd groups of Jacobs that no one could really account for. Not sure anyone has really figured it all out.

Neal

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cathy Robinson 
  To: Linda 
  Cc: jacob sheep ; Robin Lynde 
  Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2009 5:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] thank you.


  ....weren't the first importations of Jacobs around the late 60's or early 70's? 
  Lawn mowers were around WAY before that....growing up in the 50's, we always had a lawnmower.   :-) 

  Cathy
  Perfect Spot Farm
  http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html


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From aztreaz at earthlink.net  Sun Sep 13 23:23:50 2009
From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE)
Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2009 20:23:50 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] Miniature Jacob sheep
Message-ID: <410-22009911432350984@earthlink.net>

--Robin wrote:
>This is the 2nd time I've heard of someone looking a Miniature Jacobs this
weekend. All of you should know that JSBA (Jacob Sheep >Breeders
Association) breed standard states that adult ewes are 80-120 lbs and rams
are 120-180 lbs. A Jacob sheep is definitely smaller than a lot of the
breeds you'll see at any sheep show or fair, so someone might be
advertising them as Miniature, but if they're >within the standard then
they aren't anything different
=========
Thirteen years ago I bought my first Jacob sheep, I had never heard of them
before.  A lady in a nearby town went to an auction in the midwest for
miniature animals.  She came back with a mini donkey, pygmy goats and the
Jacob sheep.  When I talked with her I assumed the sheep were the size of
pygmy goats, I expected very tiny, miniature sheep.  I bought the sheep
from her and they all (2 ewes and a ram) grew into the weight range for
regular Jacobs, they weren't miniature at all, except, perhaps, in the eyes
of people familiar with the larger sheep breeds.  In that case,
regular-sized Jacobs were called 'miniature'.  I would call the Southdown
Baby Doll sheep miniatures, they are really small.

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho




From beegal7 at yahoo.com  Mon Sep 14 03:34:54 2009
From: beegal7 at yahoo.com (Meg Steensland)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 00:34:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] miniJacobs
Message-ID: <932311.70122.qm@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I have gotten at least one smallish - or miniJacob every year since 2006 when I used a full size ram I got from Carl in IN.?4Horn Farm Frank is fine but, has produced? minis with DIFFERENT EWES, so I am pretty sure it is his genetics - he is an A-ram.? The first year, 2006 was Tinkerbelle out of Spahr Farm Ramona and she was sold as a pet to Jeremy Adams who traded her to my fried Dennis who still has her. And she produced a normal size lamb.? In 2007 it was a ram and he went the locker lamb route.? In 08 and 09, I got two? 2H smallish ewes from Frank's son and a 2005 Pineview ewe who did deliver a nice lilac in 2007 bred to a Moonstruck lilac sire (Henry).? Also this year I have a tiny 4H ewe out of a Spahr Farm girl that has produced normals in the past bred to Frank and Fritz.
?
So, there must be a gene/allelle for small size that keeps popping up and tt must be a bit rare or I would get more tiny lambs.
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From lambfarm at sover.net  Mon Sep 14 06:10:03 2009
From: lambfarm at sover.net (Betty Berlenbach)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 06:10:03 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] minis
Message-ID: <004b01ca3524$8c767a30$05a172d8@USER5AFE0954BF>

I have had a few lambs over the years born small...but they all grow to size.  The minis I've seen are more like dwarfs than midgets, the only terms I can think of to describe them.  Short legs, normal size noses and bodies, proportionately different from simply smallish sheep.  And I've only seen them at one farm years ago, some sheep a guy got from a petting zoo for free.  
 Betty, in Vermont,who now has a blog, thanks to help from Walter and Linda.  See Betty's blog at http://sheepwoman.wordpress.com.
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Mon Sep 14 13:32:23 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:32:23 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams Part 2
Message-ID: <000501ca3561$5a7c5d00$6d10b8a1@RIVENDELL>

For reasons beyond my understanding, my reply to Linda never made the
Jacob list.so I will resend it in three parts.maybe it was too big a
file?

Tara

Part 2 of 3

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Linda [mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net] 
		Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 3:43 PM
		To: ranchrat
		Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
		Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams


		We get to know our sheep and can usually tell with a
visual when one needs a more hands on check.  

The Alberta Ag Specialists will not agree with you, nor will my vet.
Visual inspections are better than nothing, but by the time you see
outwards signs your Jacobs could well be on their way to being quite
sick, they have already had the potential to lose a lot of condition
before any potential illness slows them down.  I concur that body
language is a good indicator that something is wrong with your stock
(why is that ewe off by herself??), but there is better insurance in
placing your hands on your beasts daily.  Water intake is down (why?),
fat on the back is dwindling (broken tooth, worm load?), tender to touch
(swelling from a flesh injury?), a tick has lodged itself in the skin,
keds or lice are present.rolling up your sleeves daily and getting
sheepy ensures the shepherd is caring for their sheep. 

Uneducated non-sheep people will say things like, "sheep are really
delicate animals, and die just looking at them."  This comes from the
fact that it really does take quite a good kick to make a sheep look
outwardly SICK.   Sure a person who owns livestock and looks at them
everyday is going to see potential problems or illnesses, but there is
no replacement for hands on your livestock.  I won't change my mind
there.

Don't know if I've bored the list here before, but some years back,
quite a few now.I was looking at one of my rams, admiring him and noted
he had a slight "booger."  I HATE boogers (yeh, makes for an interesting
retired accountant that drives school bus to buy bird feed!!) and I
thought, "Sheep don't get boogers like that??"  So I reached down and
grabbed at it.not a booger (yes, you can put the smelling salts away
now!) but a stick!  Where he ever picked one up is beyond me as the ram
pastures are devoid of anything but heaps of grasses and other Jacob
friendly green foliage.  Maybe the wind blew a branch down, anyway, I
began pulling on the stick and it was the size & length of a large
drinking straw.yick!  Course some noxious flowing fluids quickly
followed and I headed to the house for a follow up antibiotic shot, but
can you imagine if this ram was one of those "park sheep" out in the
English country side for a year or so.  Poor beast must have lodged the
stick while grazing and lacking any appendages like fingers to pull it
out, he shoved it deeper and probably would have been found as a pile of
bones and rotted hide after the nice infection hit his grey matter.  The
stick in the nasal cavity would not have given anyone any idea why he
died and the scavenging "wolves" would probably have been blamed for his
demise.  Maybe your luck is better than mine, all I know is that I have
never regretted handling my livestock and find it much more comforting
pondering how many mishaps we've managed to avoid over this practice.  I
expect you also would have seen the booger since you visually inspect
your Jacobs daily.but what about the ones that tour their section in a 4
wheeler.how often do they run fence or check stock?

		While I do halter break my rams, I don't hand feed them.

Oh heavens NEVER EVER feed them from your hand.any livestock for that
matter.that is why I described in my post about using a "small nylon
bag" to hold the treat.  So people, when you decide not to be treating
your livestock and you walk up with your "hands" how do you signal to
your critters not to bombard you, run you over or right off your feet.
In winter, we have individual rubber pans if'n we decide to give out
grain treats and I leave the sheep in the barn until I have all the
rubber pans strategically placed out and about to cut down on fighting
and bullying.  Don't' know about the rest of you guys but getting run
over by a mob of woollies sure ain't my idea of a good time and I ain't
planning on removing my "hands" off my bod any time soon, so no HAND
FEEDING round these dem here parts.

We had a massive flood in 2005 (yeh, the year I decide "what could go
wrong by having June lambs".nothing past having to milk out evacuate
ewes to feed the lambs.oh my!!) and while we had everyone halter
trained, I quickly learnt that I did not have an individual "halter" for
each and ever single ruminant.I do now and hope never to be in the same
predicament again.  We have a trailer large enough with the ability to
segregate the stock for evacuation purposes, but I also have the ability
to run down the highway with everyone in tow, haltered up with a lead in
hand.  Another insurance policy done and paid for.

Jacob Sheep are being raised successfully by breeders who are as
individual as our Jacobs and who use a wide variety of management
techniques. 

You will find more characters raising Jacobs than your run of the mill
keepers of sheep, no fear there.  I am always amused at the vehicles
that swerve and almost crash while the occupants oogle our Jacobs in
their pastures.  One fellow was so intrigued, he came back on a bike but
had to dismount and walk past as he was going too fast to absorb all
that is here.LOL  That alone makes us keepers of Jacobs "individuals."

One thing I will not waver on is the definition of what being a shepherd
means to me.  I am not judge &/or jury on how others keep their sheep,
none of my business, but I may define who I call shepherd and who I do
not.  While both a shepherd and an owner of livestock will both have the
better interest of their sheep in mind (no value in livestock being
deadstock) only a "good" shepherd is the one that places their hands
upon their beast daily.  You detect many problems right away.  The well
being of Jacobs lies in the hands of those of us willing to get smelly
with the lanolin.   Otherwise, a person is just the legal owner of
livestock but that's my opinion.  

The Shepherd Psalm 23:  "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. .
thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. . Surely goodness and mercy shall
follow me all the days of my life:  and I will dwell in the house of
the Lord for ever." 

Which place would I rather be incarnated as a Jacob.  Send me to the
good shepherd's fold, because they make the extra effort to check my
health. We have livestock because I enjoy messing with them and
providing the best care I consider possible includes a daily hands on
regiment.

		END of Part 2 of 3


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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Mon Sep 14 13:32:50 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:32:50 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams Part 3
Message-ID: <000a01ca3561$64037b10$6d10b8a1@RIVENDELL>

For reasons beyond my understanding, my reply to Linda never made the
Jacob list.so I will resend it in three parts.maybe it was too big a
file?

Tara

Part 3 of 3

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Linda [mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net] 
		Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 3:43 PM
		To: ranchrat
		Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
		Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams


There is no "only way" to do it successfully or to properly look after
our flocks, just as there is no "perfect" Jacob Sheep.

Linda


Personally, I cannot possibly care on how all the others look after
their flocks, that is the duty of organizations like the SPCA to
enforce.  I'd become a blubbering idiot if I empathized too much with
the plight of some animals.  I drive by square fields, barb wired with
cattle living day in, day out.no shade, no wind protection, no real
comforts past the skin on their backs.  I am psycho when it comes to
life's comforts for creatures.  I feel that I chose to own this animal,
so it has the right to have the best life I can afford to bestow upon
it.  My standards are high because I am willing to make great sacrifices
to ensure my critters receive nothing but the best.  This is a balancing
act too, as you do raise some animals for meat (love my steak!), for
skins, for by products like milk, eggs, fiber, feathers.  It can be
difficult at times because you do have to have tough love to doctor or
even euthanize when the quality of life is looking very bleak.
Ethically and morally, I have no way EVER to say this is the "only way"
to raise your Jacobs.  I do however have the right to state that part of
being a good shepherd is handling your stock every day, otherwise, you
are not going to find ME calling you a "good" shepherd.  Just my long
two cents worth.

Doggone,

Tara Lee Higgins - still working on the "good badge" in Good Shepherd
Rat Ranch, Alberta, Canada
 
ranchrat wrote: 
		All ours are halter trained, will stand quietly to have
toes trimmed, stand quietly tied high on a fence if required, draft
trained to pull our covered wagon in the Bighorn Rodeo Parade, and you
pretty much hafta tell'em to MOVE outta the way when changing their
water or adding more bedding.  Not that I'll ever totally trust an
intact male (we never turn our backs on one nor do we "pat" them on the
head to encourage butting!), just really nice to have good mannered boys
about.  Now because the boys get chin scratchies, it is just a matter of
leaning over the corral and rubbing my fingers together and they'll
saunter on over to see what's up.
		Can't stand spooky critters, so it ain't uncommon to
find me with a chicken perched on my arm.or head or pulling on my shoe
strings trying to make me trip up.  If you can't work on your livestock,
you can't keep them healthy.  When I first began doing the fun stuff on
the Jacobs, I'd carry around this small nylon bag of grain.  Anytime I
"captured" a victim, they'd end their ordeal with a treat.  Sometimes
I'd just catch them to give them a treat.  Keep 'em guessing!  If your
animal is stressed over being caught, you really do have an ordeal on
your hands before you even get started.  In sheep, because of the fiber,
you hafta put your hands on them to condition score them.if you don't
handled your animals, you are not going to catch the first signs that
something is wrong with them from parasites to weight loss.  Mine get
pats every day.only way a good shepherd can do their work & look after
their stock.
		Chicken UP!
		Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta
		Home of Canada's 1st Grand Champion Jacob Ewe Melody
		END of Part 3 of 3





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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Mon Sep 14 13:31:57 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 11:31:57 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams Part 1
Message-ID: <000001ca3561$4319bae0$6d10b8a1@RIVENDELL>

For reasons beyond my understanding, my reply to Linda never made the
Jacob list.so I will resend it in three parts.maybe it was too big a
file?

Tara

Part 1 of 3

Heel low:

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Linda [mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net] 
		Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2009 3:43 PM
		To: ranchrat
		Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
		Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams

		Tara,
		
		I'd love to see a picture of your rams pulling the
wagon. Could you share with us? 

To Linda, I am attaching three pics of Nicto and Noble at the Bighorn
Rodeo parade.  The parade theme that year was "Forestry," so we
decorated the wagon with fake evergreen branches.  In later years I ran
with signs on each side stating simply "SHEEP" in large red letters as
everyone kept calling them goats.sheep can have horns, right??  One year
we even put one of the Nigerian Dwarf Dairy Goats inside the wagon, so
people could have a frame of reference."dis is a goat, dis is a
sheep".one of my pet peeves I suppose.LOL  Anyone wanting to see the
pics.they are about 200 KBs, e-mail and I'll see if I can get dumped off
the dial up sending them onwards.

		I have to disagree just a bit here. 

Yes, we will agree to disagree here..but not too far off the mark.  When
asked to describe the Jacob, my line of description is that they are an
"ornamental park sheep."  Neither dairy, draft, fiber nor meat, but all
four including "ornamental" with a potential to be pet companions with
their brains being 8 percent larger than your average sheeper deeper.

		While I see my sheep every day (many times a day), I
don't really feel that it's necessary for me to chuck my rams under the
chin on a daily basis to look after them properly :-)

My boys probably would prefer I scratch chinnies everyday, but time does
not stand still forever.  I am sure I could be expected to wave palm
branches and peel grapes for them too, but that ain't happenin' unless I
get the same treatment back.  VBG  You appear to be as comfortable on
your level of care for your Jacobs as I am.  Good show.

		The amazing thing about Jacobs is their adaptability. It
sounds like they thrive with your literal "hands on" approach, but they
also thrive untended on a remote island, on large ranches with the
occasional check, on tiny little one acre farms, on medium sized
acreage, and about everything in between. 

Being a "primitive" sheep has allowed them to thrive in conditions where
most domesticated sheep would have been found feet up.  We chose this
breed because we knew we would have the resources and ability to bestow
lots of attention on our sheep and chose Jacobs for their uncommonness
and primitiveness.  I researched sheep breeds for five years prior to
this decision and came to the conclusion that if we lavished the Jacobs
with the best we could, they would do very well indeed.

There is no prerequisite to acquiring livestock.  Considered by law
"your personal property," unless there is outright abuse, there is no
"Big Brother" guarding the definition of good animal husbandry.heck it
is deplorable how some human children are raised, but I digress.  

Some livestock owners are hands on, some are hands off. This goes hand
in hand with the concept of some that "pasture lamb," not bothering to
lift a finger to assist during birthing of their flocks.  They brag
their stock is hardy, selected by "nature" for resilience.reminiscent of
the over used phrase, "what don't kill you, makes you strong."  The only
time this one guy who wrote a book on this topic (I had the misfortune
of hearing him speak at a Sheep Symposium one year) saw his sheep was to
sheer and then in the fall to load up the lambs bound for the meat
markets.  That ain't "shepherding" that's neglect but hey, maybe that
makes the best "business" sense.no excessive resources expended, nothing
overly risked.dunno past I couldn't sleep at night feeding the coyotes
like that.  I believe most that own Jacobs do not employ this extreme
"management" or lack thereof in management practices, but there could be
a few that run their flock more feral than domestic.  That is their
choice and agreed, the Jacob, historically, was that "park sheep" you
rounded up for sheering once a year and didn't bother much with.

When we select breeding candidates, I refer to my records of ID and
results.  If I had to assist during lambing, why, was the reason
something that will weaken the strain?  Historically in the pedigree, is
there potential in the lines for my objectives.be it a goat, duck, dog,
sheep or chicken, just because I have a soft heart does not mean I am
soft in the head and weak in my choices of the best stock bred to
produce the best stock possible.  Healthy genetic diversity, livestock I
don't have to mess with frequently are going to be the best candidates
for replication.  If I spend all my time scratching chinny chin chins,
so be it.  Suits my happiness scale.
 
		END of Part 1 of 3
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Mon Sep 14 14:19:10 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:19:10 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams Part 1
In-Reply-To: <000001ca3561$4319bae0$6d10b8a1@RIVENDELL>
References: <000001ca3561$4319bae0$6d10b8a1@RIVENDELL>
Message-ID: <4AAE891E.5070601@windstream.net>

Probably because you had attached photos. The list doesn't allow 
attachments.

ranchrat wrote:
>
> For reasons beyond my understanding, my reply to Linda never made the 
> Jacob list...so I will resend it in three parts...maybe it was too big 
> a file?
>
> Tara
>
> Part 1 of 3
>
> Heel low:
>
>             ---
>
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Mon Sep 14 14:22:08 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 14:22:08 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] [Fwd: Re:  Catching Rams]
Message-ID: <4AAE89D0.1090204@windstream.net>



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Re: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
Date: 	Fri, 11 Sep 2009 13:58:24 -0400
From: 	Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
To: 	ranchrat <ranchrat at telusplanet.net>
References: 
<!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAf9aco+/WNkm/qixBrRotA8KAAAAQAAAAN2jU/38l3k2hZm7F0/xemQEAAAAA at telusplanet.net> 






ranchrat wrote:
>
> Heel low:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Linda [mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 09, 2009 3:43 PM
> *To:* ranchrat
> *Cc:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
>
> Ethically and morally, I have no way EVER to say this is the ?only 
> way? to raise your Jacobs. I do however have the right to state that 
> part of being a good shepherd is handling your stock every day, 
> otherwise, you are not going to find ME calling you a ?good? shepherd. 
> Just my long two cents worth?
>
My apologies if I took your statement "Mine get pats every day?only way 
a good shepherd can do their work & look after their stock." as saying 
it was the only way. Thanks for the pictures! I imagine they gather alot 
of attention in the parade. Do they continue to pull the wagon 
gracefully when they are mature?

Linda
>


-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>


From lambfarm at sover.net  Mon Sep 14 16:14:55 2009
From: lambfarm at sover.net (Betty Berlenbach)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 16:14:55 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility
Message-ID: <005701ca3578$5dd8aff0$9ca072d8@USER5AFE0954BF>

Tara, go right on handling your rams if you want to but please be very, very careful...Handled rams are the ones who aren't afraid or respectful of you, and all of a sudden, out of a clear blue sky, for no apparent reason, one day, one of them could come from behind and break your back...not because he doesn't "love" you, but precisely because he does, and since you have become close, he has decided you need to belong to his harem and need some discipline and some knowing of boundaries.  SHEEP have different ideas of boundaries and appropriate behaviour for females than most humans.  They also have different ideas of how to react to males whom they see as a threat, even human males....and they have a lot of testosterone which seems to shoot into them sporadically and at specific times, but also at non-specific times.  Taming your rams may make them friendly most of the time, but it also allows for a much greater probability that if you come across one of those tame rams on a testosterone=y day, you could be crippled for life.  Sheep are meant to be friendly to sheep, and relate to sheep.  Trying to make them puppy dogs is just not heatlhy for you or for them.  It's like keeping a cat declawed and indoors...sweet kittie, but what kind of life is that for a hunter?  Sheep need to be allowed to be sheep.  

That's just MY two cents.   I wouldn't even bother, because, like you, I believe there are a wide range of choices of how to treat animals, but I am very concerned that you or your spouse or one of your children could end up dead because you are expecting your sheep to act like something other than sheep.  You don't scold a bird for catching a mouse or a bird: they are programmed to do so, as border collies are programmed to herd.  If a ram attacks a human, it is because it sees that human as a threat or as a potential mate who needs training up.  Please don't expect your sheep to act like a human. They can be very affectionate, thank God, but they also can be very sheep=y.  They didn't name Dodge Ram CHarger trucks that because they were cute!  

And, people who don't handle their sheep are definitely NOT abusing them.  Some people believe very strongly that handling their domestic animals is NOT good policy, not good for them, not good for the animals.  Judge not, lest ye be judged!
 Betty, in Vermont,who now has a blog, thanks to help from Walter and Linda.  See Betty's blog at http://sheepwoman.wordpress.com.
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From tcarnes at carnesely.com  Mon Sep 14 16:40:42 2009
From: tcarnes at carnesely.com (Thomas Carnes)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 15:40:42 -0500
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility
In-Reply-To: <005701ca3578$5dd8aff0$9ca072d8@USER5AFE0954BF>
Message-ID: <20090914204207030.OSNU25@hrndva-omta03.mail.rr.com>

The ram I spent the most time with, our first, is the one I had to put down
because he, quite literally, kept trying to kill me.  Since then, I do not
socialize with them.

 

 

THOMAS P. CARNES

    ATTORNEY & MEDIATOR

 

945 Barnett Street

Kerrville, Texas 78028

  

* Phone: 830.896.9140 

7 Fax: 830.896.0921

* Email:  <mailto:tcarnes at thomaspcarnes.com> tcarnes at thomaspcarnes.com 

* Web: www.thomaspcarnes.com

 

The information transmitted herein is intended only for the person or entity
to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
taking any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities
other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in
error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
Thank you for your cooperation.

  _____  

From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com
[mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of Betty Berlenbach
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 3:15 PM
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility

 

Tara, go right on handling your rams if you want to but please be very, very
careful...Handled rams are the ones who aren't afraid or respectful of you,
and all of a sudden, out of a clear blue sky, for no apparent reason, one
day, one of them could come from behind and break your back...not because he
doesn't "love" you, but precisely because he does, and since you have become
close, he has decided you need to belong to his harem and need some
discipline and some knowing of boundaries.  SHEEP have different ideas of
boundaries and appropriate behaviour for females than most humans.  They
also have different ideas of how to react to males whom they see as a
threat, even human males....and they have a lot of testosterone which seems
to shoot into them sporadically and at specific times, but also at
non-specific times.  Taming your rams may make them friendly most of the
time, but it also allows for a much greater probability that if you come
across one of those tame rams on a testosterone=y day, you could be crippled
for life.  Sheep are meant to be friendly to sheep, and relate to sheep.
Trying to make them puppy dogs is just not heatlhy for you or for them.
It's like keeping a cat declawed and indoors...sweet kittie, but what kind
of life is that for a hunter?  Sheep need to be allowed to be sheep.  

 

That's just MY two cents.   I wouldn't even bother, because, like you, I
believe there are a wide range of choices of how to treat animals, but I am
very concerned that you or your spouse or one of your children could end up
dead because you are expecting your sheep to act like something other than
sheep.  You don't scold a bird for catching a mouse or a bird: they are
programmed to do so, as border collies are programmed to herd.  If a ram
attacks a human, it is because it sees that human as a threat or as a
potential mate who needs training up.  Please don't expect your sheep to act
like a human. They can be very affectionate, thank God, but they also can be
very sheep=y.  They didn't name Dodge Ram CHarger trucks that because they
were cute!  

 

And, people who don't handle their sheep are definitely NOT abusing them.
Some people believe very strongly that handling their domestic animals is
NOT good policy, not good for them, not good for the animals.  Judge not,
lest ye be judged!

 Betty, in Vermont,who now has a blog, thanks to help from Walter and Linda.
See Betty's blog at http://sheepwoman.wordpress.com.

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.96/2369 - Release Date: 09/14/09
05:51:00


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From gotothewhip at aol.com  Mon Sep 14 22:22:36 2009
From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 22:22:36 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Sheep in Magazine
Message-ID: <8CC03C2869F6E39-2268-97E3@webmail-d088.sysops.aol.com>


Not a good picture of us, nor is it one of our better sheep, but thought you guys might like to see that a Jacob made "The Fence Post"





?

?http://www.thefencepost.com/article/2009909149997

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From aztreaz at earthlink.net  Mon Sep 14 23:47:04 2009
From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 20:47:04 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility
Message-ID: <410-2200992153474250@earthlink.net>

--Betty wrote:
>Tara, go right on handling your rams if you want to but please be very,
very careful...Handled rams are the ones who aren't afraid or >respectful
of you, and all of a sudden, out of a clear blue sky, for no apparent
reason, one day, one of them could come from behind and >break your back...
=======
Very true.  Many longtime sheep owners know this to be true.  One main
thing I learned over the 13 years as a subscriber to Sheep-list on the
Internet is to never pat, scratch, or hand feed a ram.  It is one of those
unwritten laws that some of us have to learn the hard way.  I obey the law
now, but with my first ram I scratched him often and then had a game where
I would throw large snow balls in the air and he would run up and ram them.
Such fun for both of us. As I made the snowball, he would back up, getting
ready to smack them.  I don't do any of that anymore, no scratching or
patting, etc, the new rams respect me and I don't have an aggressive ram
like the first one was.  I had the first ram for 13 years, but I wouldn't
ever keep an aggressive ram again.  Too risky to us and especially the
neighbors if an aggressive ram gets away..

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho



From aztreaz at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 15 00:55:16 2009
From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE)
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2009 21:55:16 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine
Message-ID: <410-22009921545516359@earthlink.net>

Not a good picture of us, nor is it one of our better sheep, but thought
you guys might like to see that a Jacob made "The Fence Post"
 http://www.thefencepost.com/article/2009909149997
======
Good looking fellow(s), you too!  What is that thing over the sheep's nose?
Looks like a woman's bikini bottom.

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho



From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Tue Sep 15 07:21:04 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 07:21:04 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility
In-Reply-To: <410-2200992153474250@earthlink.net>
References: <410-2200992153474250@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4AAF78A0.4090103@windstream.net>

That game sure does sound like a recipe for disaster, but I bet it was 
hilarious to see! (for a while, anyway :-))

Linda

ARTHUR PARTRIDGE wrote:
>  I obey the law
> now, but with my first ram I scratched him often and then had a game where
> I would throw large snow balls in the air and he would run up and ram them.
> Such fun for both of us. As I made the snowball, he would back up, getting
> ready to smack them.  
> Cathy
> Moscow, Idaho
>
>
>
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From gotothewhip at aol.com  Tue Sep 15 09:07:18 2009
From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:07:18 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine
In-Reply-To: <410-22009921545516359@earthlink.net>
References: <410-22009921545516359@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CC041C965F8BB4-415C-29C0E@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>







You are the 2nd person who has asked that.... I dont see what you guys are seeing?He has a white rope halter on.. you can see that lead rope... and then the white plastic chain that holds him in thon the blocking stand.... Could somebody circle what they are seeing... The only odd thing I can see is it looked like the flash bounced off the white on his nose, and caused a glare?

-----Original Message-----
From: ARTHUR PARTRIDGE <aztreaz at earthlink.net>
To: jacob-list <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Cc: gotothewhip at aol.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:55 pm
Subject: RE::[Jacob-list] Jacob Sheep in Magazine



Not a good picture of us, nor is it one of our better sheep, but thought
you guys might like to see that a Jacob made "The Fence Post"
 http://www.thefencepost.com/article/2009909149997
======
Good looking fellow(s), you too!  What is that thing over the sheep's nose?
Looks like a woman's bikini bottom.

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho



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From barbaras8 at hotmail.com  Tue Sep 15 10:52:51 2009
From: barbaras8 at hotmail.com (Barbara Schultz)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 14:52:51 +0000
Subject: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine
In-Reply-To: <8CC041C965F8BB4-415C-29C0E@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
References: <410-22009921545516359@earthlink.net>
	<8CC041C965F8BB4-415C-29C0E@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <SNT111-W43B7568658433259006831E5E30@phx.gbl>


 
If you hit the enlarge circle,( makes the picture really large)

it becomes clear what appears over the

nose. It is hard to tell from the small picture what it is.

 

Barbara



Barbara   Schultz
 
www.greenwaterfarm.com


 



To: aztreaz at earthlink.net; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:07:18 -0400
From: gotothewhip at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine




You are the 2nd person who has asked that.... I dont see what you guys are seeing?He has a white rope halter on.. you can see that lead rope... and then the white plastic chain that holds him in thon the blocking stand.... Could somebody circle what they are seeing... The only odd thing I can see is it looked like the flash bounced off the white on his nose, and caused a glare?

-----Original Message-----
From: ARTHUR PARTRIDGE <aztreaz at earthlink.net>
To: jacob-list <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Cc: gotothewhip at aol.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:55 pm
Subject: RE::[Jacob-list] Jacob Sheep in Magazine


Not a good picture of us, nor is it one of our better sheep, but thought
you guys might like to see that a Jacob made "The Fence Post"
 http://www.thefencepost.com/article/2009909149997
======
Good looking fellow(s), you too!  What is that thing over the sheep's nose?
Looks like a woman's bikini bottom.

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho


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From gotothewhip at aol.com  Tue Sep 15 11:01:35 2009
From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:01:35 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine
In-Reply-To: <SNT111-W43B7568658433259006831E5E30@phx.gbl>
References: <410-22009921545516359@earthlink.net><8CC041C965F8BB4-415C-29C0E@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<SNT111-W43B7568658433259006831E5E30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <8CC042C8DB208D5-1034-D219@webmail-m035.sysops.aol.com>


There isnt ANYTHING on the nose.... Nothing.. I am 100000% certain


-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara Schultz <barbaras8 at hotmail.com>
To: gotothewhip at aol.com; aztreaz at earthlink.net; Jacob-list <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Sent: Tue, Sep 15, 2009 8:52 am
Subject: RE: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine


? 
If you hit the enlarge circle,( makes the picture really large)
it becomes clear what appears over the
nose. It is hard to tell from the small picture what it is.
?
Barbara




Barbara?? Schultz

?

www.greenwaterfarm.com



? 
To: aztreaz at earthlink.net; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:07:18 -0400
From: gotothewhip at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine







You are the 2nd person who has asked that.... I dont see what you guys are seeing?He has a white rope halter on.. you can see that lead rope... and then the white plastic chain that holds him in thon the blocking stand.... Could somebody circle what they are seeing... The only odd thing I can see is it looked like the flash bounced off the white on his nose, and caused a glare?

-----Original Message-----
From: ARTHUR PARTRIDGE <aztreaz at earthlink.net>
To: jacob-list <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Cc: gotothewhip at aol.com
Sent: Mon, Sep 14, 2009 10:55 pm
Subject: RE::[Jacob-list] Jacob Sheep in Magazine



Not a good picture of us, nor is it one of our better sheep, but thought
you guys might like to see that a Jacob made "The Fence Post"
 http://www.thefencepost.com/article/2009909149997
======
Good looking fellow(s), you too!  What is that thing over the sheep's nose?
Looks like a woman's bikini bottom.

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho



= 
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From guschi73 at yahoo.com  Tue Sep 15 12:43:37 2009
From: guschi73 at yahoo.com (Gooch)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 09:43:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 13
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4.1253031315.81171.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
References: <mailman.4.1253031315.81171.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
Message-ID: <868189.13836.qm@web111501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

If you enlarge the picture "really" big- then you can see it IS the glare that is between the white plastic chain and the black of his nose.? But it hits just right to look like a triangle.? Almost looks like?there's something there?that's part of the stand?fittings.

Can any picture of us standing in a barn grooming our sheep be a good picture??? I have one taken at last year's WI Sheep?& Wool Festival with our ram?that made me go back to coloring my hair!
??? Shel

~*~*~*~*~*~
~Asylum Farm Blog~

~ Asylum Farm ~ 



      
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From aztreaz at earthlink.net  Tue Sep 15 14:28:19 2009
From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 11:28:19 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine
Message-ID: <410-220099215182819625@earthlink.net>

There isnt ANYTHING on the nose.... Nothing.. I am 100000% certain.
======
Your right, now that I see in closely.  The white triangle of the 'bikini'
is actually the white part of the face.  That is the cutest little bikini I
have ever seen.  I really like the white chain motif, plus the white chains
holding the front and back part of the bikini.  Could give a designer some
great ideas.  That would be a good use for one, to hold an animal's head as
they stand on the stanchion.

Done teasing..

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho



From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Tue Sep 15 18:23:17 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 18:23:17 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] : Jacob Sheep in Magazine
In-Reply-To: <SNT111-W43B7568658433259006831E5E30@phx.gbl>
References: <410-22009921545516359@earthlink.net>	<8CC041C965F8BB4-415C-29C0E@webmail-d035.sysops.aol.com>
	<SNT111-W43B7568658433259006831E5E30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4AB013D5.10004@windstream.net>

The area in front of the chain is really blown out - probably from the 
flash? What makes it odd is the linear shadow along the bottom of the 
white facial marking.

Thanks for sharing the picture! I can see that changing the coats makes 
a difference - his fleece still has some character. I love how black his 
black is!

Linda

Barbara Schultz wrote:
>  
>
> If you hit the enlarge circle,( makes the picture really large)
> it becomes clear what appears over the
> nose. It is hard to tell from the small picture what it is.
>  
> Barbara
>
>
> Barbara   Schultz
>  
> www.greenwaterfarm.com
>
>
>
>  
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Tue Sep 15 20:59:38 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 20:59:38 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAf9aco+/WNkm/qixBrRotA8KAAAAQAAAAN2jU/38l3k2hZm7F0/xemQEAAAAA@telusplanet.net>
References: <!~!UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAf9aco+/WNkm/qixBrRotA8KAAAAQAAAAN2jU/38l3k2hZm7F0/xemQEAAAAA@telusplanet.net>
Message-ID: <4AB0387A.9000504@windstream.net>

I can live with that *smile* as it is ME and MY flock that determine if 
I am a "good" shepherd.
Cheers,
Linda

ranchrat wrote:
>
>  I do however have the right to state that part of being a good 
> shepherd is handling your stock every day, otherwise, you are not 
> going to find ME calling you a "good" shepherd.  Just my long two 
> cents worth...
>
>  
>
> Doggone,
>
>  
>
> Tara Lee Higgins -- still working on the "good badge" in Good Shepherd
>
> Rat Ranch, Alberta, Canada
>
>  
>

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From Jacobflock at aol.com  Tue Sep 15 23:31:24 2009
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2009 23:31:24 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
Message-ID: <c69.5366cddb.37e1b60c@aol.com>



In a message dated 9/13/2009 8:42:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:

There were importations  in the 50s, and we THINK that there may have been 
some in the 1890s.  Certainly there have been some odd groups of Jacobs that 
no one could really  account for. Not sure anyone has really figured it all 
 out.
 
Would be very interested in the site or information suggesting what we now  
call Jacobs were in fact Jacobs and may have been in the US or North 
America in  the 1890's.  The earliest text reference I can find is to a ram of 
"the  Scottish 4-horn race." used in breeding experiements related to the  
"poll/horn/hornless" gene expressin in 1912 at the University of New  HAmpshire. 
 But I have not been able to find any picture or record of  any experiement 
results related to "the Scottish 4-horn race" ram which would  confirm that 
it was what we today call the Jacob.
 
The contemporaneous printing of Elwe's Primitive Breeds and their  Crosses 
at Bristol, England, the following year and the writings of  Heatly, Ewart, 
etc, at this time suggest a very few flocks located in the Parks  and a few 
sheep here and there... I counted like 28 flocks in England in the  
1910-1915 period,  some known to be crosses.  My sense is they were  rare as 
documented and reported and would not be international "export/import"  goods 
considering the population and basic economics of the breed.   However, as Elwes 
notes (1913), the crosses to the primitive breeds could be  locally 
profitable in the hills mid-lands which may account for some of the  "cross flocks" 
in the 1900s census.  
 
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Road
Lucas, TX  75002
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From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Wed Sep 16 06:00:20 2009
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose)
Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2009 06:00:20 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
References: <c69.5366cddb.37e1b60c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <A45387EB9C3B41CBA368B322D02F0B71@HAL2>

Thanks Fred,

Ingrid's book cites the use of Jacob's Sheep as lawn ornaments in Victorian estates. My guess is that the Anglophiles among the Nuevo-rich set may well have brought in a few sheep for curiosity's sake. This would not have been as an "importation". It would have given someone the chance to collect several and inbreed for type a group that was kept in the back yard.

Neal

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jacobflock at aol.com 
  To: nlgrose at yadtel.net 
  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations




  In a message dated 9/13/2009 8:42:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:
    There were importations in the 50s, and we THINK that there may have been some in the 1890s. Certainly there have been some odd groups of Jacobs that no one could really account for. Not sure anyone has really figured it all out.

  Would be very interested in the site or information suggesting what we now call Jacobs were in fact Jacobs and may have been in the US or North America in the 1890's.  The earliest text reference I can find is to a ram of "the Scottish 4-horn race." used in breeding experiements related to the "poll/horn/hornless" gene expressin in 1912 at the University of New HAmpshire.  But I have not been able to find any picture or record of any experiement results related to "the Scottish 4-horn race" ram which would confirm that it was what we today call the Jacob.

  The contemporaneous printing of Elwe's Primitive Breeds and their Crosses at Bristol, England, the following year and the writings of Heatly, Ewart, etc, at this time suggest a very few flocks located in the Parks and a few sheep here and there... I counted like 28 flocks in England in the 1910-1915 period,  some known to be crosses.  My sense is they were rare as documented and reported and would not be international "export/import" goods considering the population and basic economics of the breed.  However, as Elwes notes (1913), the crosses to the primitive breeds could be locally profitable in the hills mid-lands which may account for some of the "cross flocks" in the 1900s census.  

  Fred Horak
  St. Jude's Farm
  1165 E. Lucas Road
  Lucas, TX  75002
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 17 14:12:49 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:12:49 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <4AAE891E.5070601@windstream.net>
Message-ID: <000001ca37c2$785e0090$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>

No, I sent two e-mails; one to you with pics attached, and one with none
to the list.  
 
 finally received an error message, if files are bigger than 40KB, their
kicked out.when I do find time to post, it's long winded.LOL
 
Tara
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda [mailto:patchworkfibers at windstream.net] 
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 12:19 PM
To: ranchrat
Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams Part 1
 
Probably because you had attached photos. The list doesn't allow
attachments.

ranchrat wrote: 
For reasons beyond my understanding, my reply to Linda never made the
Jacob list.so I will resend it in three parts.maybe it was too big a
file?
Tara
Part 1 of 3 
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 17 14:13:48 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:13:48 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility Part 1 of 3
Message-ID: <000a01ca37c2$9be59d20$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>

Hello Betty:

Yes, I completely agree that one has to be careful around their sheep
(the horns have a way of making them more intimidating), especially
intact males.  I've also had intact llamas and until my one male was
over a year old and neutered (altered), I would not even cluck at him.
He was handled daily, but very methodical, non-choocy coo, I'd even
admit to giving him a firm slap on the hip to move off after inspection.
Berserk Male Syndrome happens in male llamas (my neighbours have one
such beast!), ones that where cuddled and cooed over, hugged and what
nots as crias and adolscents, those are the ones that when they reach
adult male maturity, suddenly turn on their doting human owners and come
lashing with hooves and wolf teeth!  Yikes.

No worries Betty, my rams will stand on one side of the metal corals for
chin scratches, these boys are 2005 lambs.  When I stand up, all move
back, not to charge but because of different body language.I am
intimidating, ask the new kids on my bus.but they soon learn I am ready
and able to reward good behaviour, punish any outbursts-zero tolerance
for bullies on my bus!  LOL  

How you approach animals; fair, consistent, firm.walk softly, but carry
a big stick.  Submission, respect, acknowledgement to authority.  It
lets societies, flocks, herds, packs run smoothly.  You can see this
often in a pen of males, be them cattle or rams.  The boys all
strategically position themselves to have non-challenging positions.
Most often that means they are not facing each other.that is a signal of
a threat for most.  I watch eye movements, body stance prior to ever
entering close confines with animals.  Even things like the position of
the sun.  I've watched so many try to move livestock from dark confines
to bright sunshine and seen how the prey animals balk going from dark to
light or vice versa.  I've even been amused at how sheep will leap over
shadows, their eyes are on the side of their heads, they do not have
good 3 D perception.how deep is that puddle, is that shadow a deep chasm
I will fall into.predators like us with our eyes forward, we have no
issues judging depth.

Part 1 of 3 END


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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 17 14:14:34 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:14:34 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility Part 2 of 3
Message-ID: <001101ca37c2$b8609180$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>

As I said, I never turn my back on livestock, male, female, or the
"its."  I enter the pasture with stock stick in hand and am adept at
using it.  VBG  I don't prefer my animals sauntering up to me if there
is no metal corral panel between me and them.  I will sit on a feeder
with my Jacob ewes and enjoy watching their interactions, but you won't
find me laying about in the ram corral like that.  Business at hand,
check condition, move off, give room, watch the ones you are not
focusing on, they will be the ones to give you a good goose or a nice
bruise for your insolence.  I work stock with my dogs and we've seen
rams/bulls act badly.

I have a head gate for tattooing, and when I was milking the dairy
goats.   If I had to do something on the rams that required both hands
and I was not able to stand over them practically immobilizing them,
they just get to go for a walk down to the barn with the head gate.
When you do chores by yourself, you are methodical in how you conduct
yourself.  I phone my spouse at a designated time each day.routines and
safety protocols.  You are going to get nailed if you get complacent.
When you are off, or least expecting it, that's the day you'll get
tested.  Animals are keen at picking up on your moods.little tired,
little distracted.maybe postpone trimming toes that day; the beasts will
thank you for it and maybe tomorrow it will go better.

Handling your Jacobs is not taming them past reducing stress on them
from lack of handling.  Jacobs are kinda cool 'cause they are primitive,
not meant in my mind to be feral, but a domestic sheep.  I need to be
able to lead every animal here, have control over them and know their
physical condition.  I took one ram lamb in for surgery and the vet was
amazed at how unworried the animal was.  Stood in the waiting room,
calm, content.no issues.  Should have seen the face of their clients
dropping by to pay a bill or fetch their cat."that's a sheep there,
isn't it??"  Far cry from how the Jacobs acted that I first acquired.
Hysterical comes to mind.  The first ewe, the seller told me I had
better have over six foot fences for containment.  No prob, our
perimeter is seven feet, triple fenced.no issue.  The second group of
Jacobs, ewes again, the one now stands for me to halter her.when I
acquired her, she had not been sheared for two years because the owner
could not get near her. The last Jacob, she broke a horn during
transport because that owner had only ever touched the ewe to iodine the
navel and dock her tail.  Didn't tattoo her and I festered over that
being my first real contact with her.nice situation.  Took a lot of
patience, time, attempts to handle and then backing off to get my sheep
to where you can walk up and check them over but that is what I want.

Part 2 of 3 END


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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 17 14:15:24 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:15:24 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility Part 3 of 3
Message-ID: <001601ca37c2$dfc58f50$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>

No worries here that any of our livestock are treated like puppy dogs or
humans.no you will not find me "hugging" the livestock.that is not in my
nature and quite certain the livestock WOULD go violent if they saw me
thundering on over."Oh give us a big hug now!"  OH, blick!  They are
treated, however, better than humans and I've often told people that
every time my spouse completes a livestock building, I want to reside in
it.the critters can have the house, PLEASE!!!  I don't see where my
sheep are treated like puppy dogs-my dogs are Australian Cattle Dogs and
we dunna even wanna go here on what rough housing that breed thinks is
fun-bite, bite, and more bites-regular canine breeds don't find them at
all fun to play with!  LOL

Given a chance to learn how to be a draft animal is not going to ruin
sheep from being sheep.  It gives my boys a job to do, rewards them for
obliging my commands (submitting to my will)/discipline, reduces boredom
and helps promote our wonderful Jacob breed of sheep.  It is more common
to see goats used to draw carts and I actually ended up using a goat
harness as a pattern for braiding up my sheep rigging.  I was torn
between using a solid wooden/leather outfit, but after finding a nice
goat harness example on the Internet, chose that instead.  If anything,
I feel having rams pull a wagon allows them to funnel their
"testosterone" in a positive manner.  They like pulling, they like the
attention, it tires them out in a sensible fashion and when they return
from an outing, they seem to be rather content about the whole ordeal.
Pressure and release, how one trains animals like horses, reward for
appropriate behaviour, sheep are more than capable of these simple
tasks.   

We rehab stock dogs, some come here vicious, lost causes/last chance
before euthanizing.  It is these animals I would be more afraid of than
rams.  You are always on your guard, never knowing what might trigger
off a negative response.  Sheep are much more predictable than dogs you
rescue as I feel predators that have been abused have much more baggage
to set them off, complications.

I am in very good company with Alberta Agricultural Specialists and my
vets; both advocates of body condition scoring your livestock daily,
handling animals without stressing them, and taking action prior to
visually apparent conditions occurring.  Again, this is my definition of
a "good shepherd" and if I were a stock animal, I'd want the same
treatment myself.

Chicken UP!,

Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta

Part 3 of 3 END

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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 17 14:16:52 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:16:52 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list]  Catching Rams
Message-ID: <001b01ca37c3$12ada240$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>

From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>

I can live with that *smile* as it is ME and MY flock that determine if
I am a "good" shepherd.
Cheers,
Linda

ranchrat wrote:
>
>  I do however have the right to state that part of being a good
> shepherd is handling your stock every day, otherwise, you are not 
> going to find ME calling you a "good" shepherd.  Just my long two 
> cents worth...
>
> Doggone,
>
> Tara Lee Higgins -- still working on the "good badge" in Good Shepherd
> Rat Ranch, Alberta, Canada
>

Yes, that is exactly "it."  What does it matter what my opinion is.

My years working in a Conservation Office showed me examples of what
happens to animals that are unable to cope with stress from only
occasional handling.  Stress is a fight or flight response and we all
pretty much know that stress is a factor in many life limiting
situations.  When we received calls from the public asking why a bear
was euthanized instead of relocated, several factors came into play.  If
it was a male bear, the CO's would be more likely not to attempt
relocating the male as most territories were heavily populated with
excessive males already.  Females were usually accepted without
negatives, so if it was a girl bear, relocation was a valid possibility.
If the animal was compromised health wise (large worm load, injured,
chased excessively before treeing, etc.) the stress of being sedated may
mean the animal died, if not right off, possibly later due to over
taxing their system.  Repeat offenders, even tho it was the humans and
garbage storage that usually was the cause of the initial trouble, the
bear would not likely be relocated unless it was further away.  

I am striving to emulate ancient tribesmen that live with their
flocks.not that I'll ever attain THAT goal.  I like my "creature"
comforts FAR too much.like hot and cold running water, soft bed sans
sheep most times of the year, and MY house not being THEIR house.LOL

Tara 

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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 17 14:17:28 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:17:28 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] sensibility
Message-ID: <002001ca37c3$268d5f30$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>

When Betty says, "Some people believe very strongly that handling their
domestic animals is NOT good policy, not good for them, not good for the
animals."  I find nothing positive to support that idea past running it
like a business; less inputs = more outputs (if the "domestic" animals
survive what I consider neglect).  Years ago, Betty and I agreed we both
raised our critters different.  She made it known that her sheep had to
support themselves, we on the other hand, are a conservation farm and I
am semi-retired driving bus solely to pay for the operation.  We
currently have 20 outbuildings averaging $25,000 each.  We simply cannot
expect the animals to justify that outlay in itself.  We spend upwards
of $10,000 annually on feed, bedding and species specific bagged
rations, not factoring in any equipment acquisitions, asset
depreciation/replacement, electricity or consumables past the food and
bedding.  There is no compensation for labour past it being a hobby.  I
packed in 675 55# bags this year.in 30C weather.earned me an extra slice
of pie at dinner.bully!  When we go from 35 containment areas to over 75
during breeding seasons, nobody pats us on the back with words of
encouragement.  We have no expectation of profit yet neither are we
non-profit.  I very much doubt there are any here on this list with
hands raised going, "Hey, that's us too!" but if there is, my blessings
upon your insanity.the creatures are SO very lucky.  

By not handling your sheep, when you do have to handle them at some
point (say for medical reasons, shearing, innocs, whatever) you compound
the incident by adding what I consider is unnecessary stress.  If your
Jacobs are use to being handled, the handling is no issue when an
emergency occurs.  My vet appreciates our work with our animals as he
knows he can do pretty much anything on them without a "rodeo" on his
hands.  Diagnosing disorders is also complicated if you are dealing with
rapid heart beat, stress, shock and this is only because you laid your
hands upon the beast.  

Along with the Jacobs and other ruminants, we keep poultry; for
exhibition, conservation (some varieties we have are found no where else
on the planet), and just 'cause.  If we had issues with how we raised
males, we'd not see our males winning awards.no judge is likely to award
a bird flapping crazy like in a show pen or a charging ram or antsy ewe.
>From heritage turkey toms to ganders, roos and drakes, rams, bucks, and
studs.sensibility is a must or I'd be spending much more time in the
local hospital 'cause the boys thought I required messing up.LOL

I suppose the horse is now plenty flogged dead.  Am off to dance in the
rain.we sure needed it.

Tara 

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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Thu Sep 17 16:06:22 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:06:22 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams
In-Reply-To: <001b01ca37c3$12ada240$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>
References: <001b01ca37c3$12ada240$b210b8a1@RIVENDELL>
Message-ID: <4AB296BE.4020802@windstream.net>

Good grief, Tara. You're making it sound like your way is the only way. 
I don't condition score my sheep everyday. Why would they need to be 
condition scored on a daily basis? I do go in with my ewes EVERY day 
when I feed them. I don't handle each one, but I look at each one and 
handle any that I think need it. Since I take excellent care of my 
sheep, I don't expect them to lose a condition score overnight. It 
certainly not stress my sheep for me to catch or handle them. When I 
take them out back to pasture or anywhere, I just say "let's go sheep" 
and they follow me. I caught 20 ewes this morning to check eyelids. No 
injuries or stress to either the sheep or the shepherd. I don't catch my 
rams every day or even every week. They are used to seeing me and have 
been halter broken. It doesn't stress them out when I do catch them.
Your opinion is, of course, important and of interest.
But, you've never seen my sheep or my farm or me.

Linda

ranchrat wrote:
>
> From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
>
> I can live with that *smile* as it is ME and MY flock that determine 
> if I am a "good" shepherd.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Linda
>
> ranchrat wrote:
>
> >
>
> >  I do however have the right to state that part of being a good
>
> > shepherd is handling your stock every day, otherwise, you are not
>
> > going to find ME calling you a "good" shepherd.  Just my long two
>
> > cents worth...
>
> >
>
> > Doggone,
>
> >
>
> > Tara Lee Higgins -- still working on the "good badge" in Good Shepherd
>
> > Rat Ranch, Alberta, Canada
>
> >
>
> Yes, that is exactly "it."  What does it matter what my opinion is.
>
> My years working in a Conservation Office showed me examples of what 
> happens to animals that are unable to cope with stress from only 
> occasional handling.  Stress is a fight or flight response and we all 
> pretty much know that stress is a factor in many life limiting 
> situations.  When we received calls from the public asking why a bear 
> was euthanized instead of relocated, several factors came into play.  
> If it was a male bear, the CO's would be more likely not to attempt 
> relocating the male as most territories were heavily populated with 
> excessive males already.  Females were usually accepted without 
> negatives, so if it was a girl bear, relocation was a valid 
> possibility.  If the animal was compromised health wise (large worm 
> load, injured, chased excessively before treeing, etc.) the stress of 
> being sedated may mean the animal died, if not right off, possibly 
> later due to over taxing their system.  Repeat offenders, even tho it 
> was the humans and garbage storage that usually was the cause of the 
> initial trouble, the bear would not likely be relocated unless it was 
> further away. 
>
> I am striving to emulate ancient tribesmen that live with their 
> flocks...not that I'll ever attain THAT goal.  I like my "creature" 
> comforts FAR too much...like hot and cold running water, soft bed sans 
> sheep most times of the year, and MY house not being THEIR house...LOL
>
> Tara
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From Jacobflock at aol.com  Fri Sep 18 12:36:51 2009
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:36:51 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
Message-ID: <ccd.60c6d931.37e51123@aol.com>

I re-read Painter's book Jacobs in America and can't find the mention  of 
lawn ornaments on Victorian estates in America.  There are many  referencves 
to their lawn ornament status in the Parks of the UK.   Il  think that any 
case for importations of what we call Jacobs before 1950 (just to  lay down a 
marker) should have some evidence but his is not without  difficulty.  
First, Jacob was not a popoular settled breed name; second,  brief references to 
polycerate sheep and sheep horned in hboth sexes could refer  to 
"established breeds" but not specifically used by the writer ... such as the  case 
with the New Hampshire reference which could just as easily be a Manx  
Loughtan; third, the ever wandering horned cross-breds.
 
Fred Horak
 
 
In a message dated 9/16/2009 5:00:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:

Thanks Fred,
 
Ingrid's book cites the use of Jacob's  Sheep as lawn ornaments in 
Victorian estates. My guess is that  the Anglophiles among the Nuevo-rich set may 
well have brought in a few  sheep for curiosity's sake. This would not have 
been as an "importation". It  would have given someone the chance to collect 
several and inbreed for  type a group that was kept in the back yard.
 
Neal
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  _Jacobflock at aol.com_ (mailto:Jacobflock at aol.com)  
To: _nlgrose at yadtel.net_ (mailto:nlgrose at yadtel.net)  
Cc: _jacob-list at jacobsheep.com_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com)  
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 11:31  PM
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list]  importations




In a message dated 9/13/2009 8:42:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
_nlgrose at yadtel.net_ (mailto:nlgrose at yadtel.net)  writes:

There were  importations in the 50s, and we THINK that there may have been 
some  in the 1890s. Certainly there have been some odd groups of Jacobs that 
no  one could really account for. Not sure anyone has really figured it all 
 out.
 
Would be very interested in the site or information suggesting what we  now 
call Jacobs were in fact Jacobs and may have been in the US or North  
America in the 1890's.  The earliest text reference I can find is to a  ram of 
"the Scottish 4-horn race." used in breeding experiements related to  the 
"poll/horn/hornless" gene expressin in 1912 at the University of  New HAmpshire. 
 But I have not been able to find any picture or  record of any experiement 
results related to "the Scottish 4-horn race" ram  which would confirm that 
it was what we today call the Jacob.
 
The contemporaneous printing of Elwe's Primitive Breeds and their  Crosses 
at Bristol, England, the following year and the writings  of Heatly, Ewart, 
etc, at this time suggest a very few flocks located in the  Parks and a few 
sheep here and there... I counted like 28 flocks in England  in the 
1910-1915 period,  some known to be crosses.  My sense is  they were rare as 
documented and reported and would not be international  "export/import" goods 
considering the population and basic economics of the  breed.  However, as Elwes 
notes (1913), the crosses to the primitive  breeds could be locally 
profitable in the hills mid-lands which may account  for some of the "cross flocks" 
in the 1900s census.  
 
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Road
Lucas, TX   75002



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From westergladstone at btinternet.com  Sat Sep 19 06:34:59 2009
From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (BlackSheep)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:34:59 +0100
Subject: [Jacob-list] skulls and SUED
References: <ccd.60c6d931.37e51123@aol.com>
Message-ID: <962A0A266C314B079339FE6749136D12@Newbox>

Hi All
Skulls and SUED.  I know this is discussed every few months - here in Britain it has come up again, this time on the Shetland Breeders group.  You might not expect that, but every now and then four horned individuals appear within the Shetland Breed and the incidence of SUED in them is very high.
My question is:  has anyone over there in America, where you are able to get your hands on your animals skulls, which we are not here in Britain, seen any bony defect of the orbit in animals know to have had split upper eyelids?
Of course everyone has their own ideas of the cause and inheritance of four horns and SUED - here there are two main factions, one saying that SUED is part of the split of the horns, extending down into the bone of the orbit; the second opinion says that the defect is limited to the soft tissues.  I have seen skulls of four horned sheep known to have had split eyelids, but with no bony defect and I have not seen one displaying a defect, but my experience is very limited as we are not allowed to retrieve skulls from the abattoir.
Your experiences would be very helpful - thank you.
Juliet Johnston
Scotland UK
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From fourhornfarm at verizon.net  Sat Sep 19 11:22:41 2009
From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 11:22:41 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams Part 1
References: <000001ca3561$4319bae0$6d10b8a1@RIVENDELL>
	<4AAE891E.5070601@windstream.net>
Message-ID: <5F4FD1F5DD6C47E0A4468A5CDC23065A@DollyLama>

Dear Tara,

    In your estimation I am probably the worst shepherd you will know.
     We have a flock of around 50 breeding ewes and 4 breeding rams plus some extra rams and ewes for sale or for replacements.
      Our old flock sire, who we have had for many years is almost 12 now, has produced some excellent lambs over the years and is now in with a group of ewes that are 10 to 12 yr.. old. These Jacobs get a hands on once a year when sheared or if something looks amiss, which is seldom.
       My opinion, which I am entitled to too, is that the Jacob should be a hardy breed and that should be in the genes. Our Jacobs get good pasture in the Summer, good hay in the Winter and free choice mineral and good clean water at all times. They also have shelter to get in out of the rain.
       I consider myself a good shepherd as my sheep have longevity, healthiness, proper breed type, good spotting patterns and large symmetrical horns.
       You are entitled to your opinions the same as everyone else, but I doubt many good shepherds have the time to feel each sheep every day unless they only have one or two of them.

Carl
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Linda 
  To: ranchrat 
  Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 14, 2009 2:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Catching Rams Part 1


  Probably because you had attached photos. The list doesn't allow attachments.

  ranchrat wrote: 
    For reasons beyond my understanding, my reply to Linda never made the Jacob list.so I will resend it in three parts.maybe it was too big a file?

    Tara

    Part 1 of 3

    Heel low:

        ---

http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
  

  -- 
  Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
  Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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From fourwinds at gotsky.com  Sat Sep 19 12:58:29 2009
From: fourwinds at gotsky.com (Lorraine Nielsen)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 16:58:29 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] purpose of list
Message-ID: <56683.70.41.228.6.1253379509.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net>

I am disappointed to see this forum recently being used as an outlet for
preaching and mud-slinging.  As a relatively new, and geographically
isolated flock owner, I have benefitted from the thoughtful questions
asked and the wise responses shared by more experienced Jacob owners on
this list. In any human endeavor, there will be a range of approaches and
philosophies. Let's not sink to the level of battling out our preferences
as if we were on Maury Povich. Please, keep this list a forum for
education. Let's remain focused on sharing information for the benefit of
our animals, not on judging shepherds.



Lorraine Nielsen
Shear Bliss
Four Winds Farm
P.O. Box 4
Crescent Mills, CA 95934
fourwinds at gotsky.com


From fourwinds at gotsky.com  Sat Sep 19 19:09:44 2009
From: fourwinds at gotsky.com (Lorraine Nielsen)
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 23:09:44 -0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Jacob-list] purpose of list
Message-ID: <1553.70.41.228.6.1253401784.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net>

Linda,

My comments and frustrations are certainly not with the sharing of
different management practices. The sharing is precisely the point of the
list and has an educational benefit. I just hate to see the judging of
others' worth as shepherds be a part of the sharing; it's like gossip and
is damaging. I have found the shared stories of ram management practices
most helpful, actually.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into some of these postings, or being overly
sensitive. I felt I was getting diverted away from helpful information.

Lorraine


From Hobsickle at aol.com  Sun Sep 20 08:11:44 2009
From: Hobsickle at aol.com (Hobsickle at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 08:11:44 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
Message-ID: <c30.62b5136d.37e77600@aol.com>

I had an interesting experience 6 or 8 years ago.  I took a couple of  
Jacob sheep to a buyer who said they had a few sheep that had come with the  
farm, but wanted to get into Jacobs.  When I got there, low and behold they  
already had a Jacob lamb...I thought.  I mentioned it and they said "on no,  
that's the offspring of one of our non-Jacobs that had been somewhat  
inbred."  Original mutation?...Recessive brought out by inbreeding?...I  don't 
know, but I do know that under the right circumstances something that  looks 
like a Jacob can be produced by non-Jacobs.  My point?--references to  
Jacob-like sheep may or may not refer to actual Jacobs.  I'm NOT saying I  think 
someone is making that mistake, I'm just saying that there are other  possible 
answers to some of the very early "Jacob" reports.  If only there  were 
original documentation...
 
-Dan
 
PS I wish I had documented this incident better, but I the time I was early 
 into my Jacob experience and didn't give it that much  thought.
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From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Sun Sep 20 15:06:40 2009
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:06:40 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
References: <c30.62b5136d.37e77600@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1FCB561A663048E3977CCB56A8267AF5@HAL2>

Everything has a starting point. What we call purebred is a collection of animals of similar traits that have been isolated, inbred, and reselected for type. It might have been 50 years ago, or 150 years ago, or 1500 years ago. Other than Soay, which is not strictly a domestic breed, the only thing that would fit the later standard would be Merino and English Longwool. (Neither exists in a form that they had 1500 years ago).  

You don't say wither the sheep you saw had mixed Jacob ancestry. I have seen plenty of 3/4 Jacob lambs. There is always something askew with these sheep: the fleece is too heavy, early greying, the bone is too round, the color pattern is funky, ...something. There is no Jacob gene. Jacob-ness comes from a combination of many genes and many traits. It is certainly possible that Jacob Crossbreds, bred back to each other might produce a lamb with a good degree of Jacob type, but there would be a significant amount of off-type character that would show up without careful reselection. That doesn't mean that I think that we should allow these animals into a registry...we have already done the hard work of multi-generation standardization for type for an animal that mostly agrees to what we mostly agree on. With lack of a sample of DNA from a representative group of sheep from 1880, that is the best we can do.

Neal Grose 
North Carolina

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hobsickle at aol.com 
  To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 8:11 AM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations


  I had an interesting experience 6 or 8 years ago.  I took a couple of Jacob sheep to a buyer who said they had a few sheep that had come with the farm, but wanted to get into Jacobs.  When I got there, low and behold they already had a Jacob lamb...I thought.  I mentioned it and they said "on no, that's the offspring of one of our non-Jacobs that had been somewhat inbred."  Original mutation?...Recessive brought out by inbreeding?...I don't know, but I do know that under the right circumstances something that looks like a Jacob can be produced by non-Jacobs.  My point?--references to Jacob-like sheep may or may not refer to actual Jacobs.  I'm NOT saying I think someone is making that mistake, I'm just saying that there are other possible answers to some of the very early "Jacob" reports.  If only there were original documentation...

  -Dan

  PS I wish I had documented this incident better, but I the time I was early into my Jacob experience and didn't give it that much thought.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
  Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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From Hobsickle at aol.com  Sun Sep 20 15:26:09 2009
From: Hobsickle at aol.com (Hobsickle at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 15:26:09 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
Message-ID: <cb8.562f2cca.37e7dbd1@aol.com>

 
I have long since forgotten what the exact pedigree of that Jacob-like ram  
was.  (It seems like it was a cross between at least two more common,  
modern breeds.)  I do remember that there was no indication of Jacob blood  in 
the ancestry and that neither of the parents bore any resemblance whatsoever  
(I saw them both) to Jacobs.  I expect that when the lamb grew up its  
size/conformation wouldn't have been Jacob, but it's markings sure were!
 
-Dan
 
In a message dated 9/20/2009 3:12:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:

Everything has a starting point. What we call  purebred is a collection of 
animals of similar traits that have been isolated,  inbred, and reselected 
for type. It might have been 50 years ago, or 150  years ago, or 1500 years 
ago. Other than Soay, which is not strictly a  domestic breed, the only thing 
that would fit the later standard would be  Merino and English Longwool. 
(Neither exists in a form that they had 1500  years ago).  
 
You don't say wither the sheep you saw had  mixed Jacob ancestry. I have 
seen plenty of 3/4  Jacob lambs. There is always something askew with these 
sheep: the fleece is  too heavy, early greying, the bone is too round, the 
color pattern is  funky, ...something. There is no Jacob gene. Jacob-ness comes 
from a  combination of many genes and many traits. It is certainly  
possible that Jacob Crossbreds, bred back to each other might produce a lamb  with 
a good degree of Jacob type, but there would be a significant amount of  
off-type character that would show up without careful reselection. That  
doesn't mean that I think that we should allow these animals into a  registry...we 
have already done the hard work of multi-generation  standardization for 
type for an animal that mostly agrees to what we mostly  agree on. With lack 
of a sample of DNA from a representative group of  sheep from 1880, that is 
the best we can do.
 
Neal Grose 
North Carolina
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  _Hobsickle at aol.com_ (mailto:Hobsickle at aol.com)  
To: _jacob-list at jacobsheep.com_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com)  
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 8:11  AM
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list]  importations


I had an interesting experience 6 or 8 years ago.  I took a couple  of 
Jacob sheep to a buyer who said they had a few sheep that had come with  the 
farm, but wanted to get into Jacobs.  When I got there, low and  behold they 
already had a Jacob lamb...I thought.  I mentioned it and  they said "on no, 
that's the offspring of one of our non-Jacobs that  had been somewhat 
inbred."  Original mutation?...Recessive brought out  by inbreeding?...I don't 
know, but I do know that under the right  circumstances something that looks 
like a Jacob can be produced by  non-Jacobs.  My point?--references to 
Jacob-like sheep may or may not  refer to actual Jacobs.  I'm NOT saying I think 
someone is making that  mistake, I'm just saying that there are other possible 
answers to some of  the very early "Jacob" reports.  If only there were 
original  documentation...
 
-Dan
 
PS I wish I had documented this incident better, but I the time I was  
early into my Jacob experience and didn't give it that much  thought.




 
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From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Sun Sep 20 16:01:34 2009
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 16:01:34 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
References: <cb8.562f2cca.37e7dbd1@aol.com>
Message-ID: <BCD3EBB3734847EE81B3327CFAE4EC78@HAL2>

A Finn X Dorsett cross can give you a Jacob-like pattern with horns, but the body type would be wa-a-y off. The fleeces on most of these crosses would weigh easily twice as much as a Jacob fleece. Horns would be white instead of black. 

Some Navajo or Shetland in the blend would get you closer, but then the markings would be black extremities instead of white. Romanov maybe? It is extremely hard to hit the middle ground of traits that Jacobs Sheep represent.

Neal
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Hobsickle at aol.com 
  To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:26 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations


  I have long since forgotten what the exact pedigree of that Jacob-like ram was.  (It seems like it was a cross between at least two more common, modern breeds.)  I do remember that there was no indication of Jacob blood in the ancestry and that neither of the parents bore any resemblance whatsoever (I saw them both) to Jacobs.  I expect that when the lamb grew up its size/conformation wouldn't have been Jacob, but it's markings sure were!

  -Dan

  In a message dated 9/20/2009 3:12:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:
    Everything has a starting point. What we call purebred is a collection of animals of similar traits that have been isolated, inbred, and reselected for type. It might have been 50 years ago, or 150 years ago, or 1500 years ago. Other than Soay, which is not strictly a domestic breed, the only thing that would fit the later standard would be Merino and English Longwool. (Neither exists in a form that they had 1500 years ago).  

    You don't say wither the sheep you saw had mixed Jacob ancestry. I have seen plenty of 3/4 Jacob lambs. There is always something askew with these sheep: the fleece is too heavy, early greying, the bone is too round, the color pattern is funky, ...something. There is no Jacob gene. Jacob-ness comes from a combination of many genes and many traits. It is certainly possible that Jacob Crossbreds, bred back to each other might produce a lamb with a good degree of Jacob type, but there would be a significant amount of off-type character that would show up without careful reselection. That doesn't mean that I think that we should allow these animals into a registry...we have already done the hard work of multi-generation standardization for type for an animal that mostly agrees to what we mostly agree on. With lack of a sample of DNA from a representative group of sheep from 1880, that is the best we can do.

    Neal Grose 
    North Carolina

      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Hobsickle at aol.com 
      To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
      Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 8:11 AM
      Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations


      I had an interesting experience 6 or 8 years ago.  I took a couple of Jacob sheep to a buyer who said they had a few sheep that had come with the farm, but wanted to get into Jacobs.  When I got there, low and behold they already had a Jacob lamb...I thought.  I mentioned it and they said "on no, that's the offspring of one of our non-Jacobs that had been somewhat inbred."  Original mutation?...Recessive brought out by inbreeding?...I don't know, but I do know that under the right circumstances something that looks like a Jacob can be produced by non-Jacobs.  My point?--references to Jacob-like sheep may or may not refer to actual Jacobs.  I'm NOT saying I think someone is making that mistake, I'm just saying that there are other possible answers to some of the very early "Jacob" reports.  If only there were original documentation...

      -Dan

      PS I wish I had documented this incident better, but I the time I was early into my Jacob experience and didn't give it that much thought.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
  Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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From gotothewhip at aol.com  Sun Sep 20 16:58:22 2009
From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 20 Sep 2009 16:58:22 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
In-Reply-To: <BCD3EBB3734847EE81B3327CFAE4EC78@HAL2>
References: <cb8.562f2cca.37e7dbd1@aol.com>
	<BCD3EBB3734847EE81B3327CFAE4EC78@HAL2>
Message-ID: <8CC084C397CF20A-B00-BBCB@webmail-d067.sysops.aol.com>


Funny you should say Romanov.. I have often seen a Romanov look in registered Jacobs... Curious you should mention them....



Jennifer Tucker

Moose Mtn


-----Original Message-----
From: Neal and Louise Grose <nlgrose at yadtel.net>
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Sent: Sun, Sep 20, 2009 2:01 pm
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations




A Finn X Dorsett cross can give you a Jacob-like pattern with horns, but the body type would be wa-a-y off. The fleeces on most of these crosses would weigh easily twice as much as a Jacob fleece. Horns would be white instead of black. 

?

Some Navajo or Shetland?in the blend would get you closer, but then the markings would be black extremities instead of white. Romanov maybe??It is extremely hard to hit the middle ground of traits?that Jacobs Sheep represent.

?

Neal


----- Original Message ----- 

From: Hobsickle at aol.com 

To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 

Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 3:26 PM

Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations





I have long since forgotten what the exact pedigree of that Jacob-like ram was.? (It seems like it was a cross between at least two more common, modern breeds.)? I do remember that there was no indication of Jacob blood in the ancestry and that neither of the parents bore any resemblance whatsoever (I saw them both) to Jacobs.? I expect that when the lamb grew up its size/conformation wouldn't have been Jacob, but it's markings sure were!

?

-Dan

?

In a message dated 9/20/2009 3:12:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:


Everything has a starting point. What we call purebred is a collection of animals of similar traits that have been isolated, inbred,?and reselected for type. It might have been 50 years ago, or 150 years ago, or 1500 years ago. Other than Soay, which is?not strictly a domestic breed,?the only thing that would fit the later standard would be Merino and English Longwool. (Neither exists in a form that they had 1500 years ago).? 

?

You don't say wither the sheep you saw had mixed Jacob ancestry. I have seen plenty of 3/4 Jacob lambs. There is always something askew with these sheep: the fleece is too heavy, early greying,?the bone is too round, the color pattern is funky, ...something. There is no Jacob gene.?Jacob-ness?comes from a combination of many genes and many traits.?It is certainly possible that Jacob Crossbreds, bred back to each other might produce a lamb with a good degree of Jacob type, but there would be a significant amount of off-type character that would show up without careful reselection. That doesn't mean that I think that we should allow these animals into a registry...we have already done the hard work of multi-generation standardization for type for an animal that mostly agrees to what we mostly agree on. With lack of a sample of?DNA from a representative group of sheep from 1880, that is the best we can do.

?

Neal Grose 

North Carolina

?


----- Original Message ----- 

From: Hobsickle at aol.com 

To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 

Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2009 8:11 AM

Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations




I had an interesting experience 6 or 8 years ago.? I took a couple of Jacob sheep to a buyer who said they had a few sheep that had come with the farm, but wanted to get into Jacobs.? When I got there, low and behold they already had a Jacob lamb...I thought.? I mentioned it and they said "on no, that's the offspring of one of?our non-Jacobs that had been somewhat inbred."? Original mutation?...Recessive brought out by inbreeding?...I don't know, but I do know that under the right circumstances something that looks like a Jacob can be produced by non-Jacobs.? My point?--references to Jacob-like sheep may or may not refer to actual Jacobs.? I'm NOT saying I think someone is making that mistake, I'm just saying that there are other possible answers to some of the very early "Jacob" reports.? If only there were original documentation...

?

-Dan

?

PS I wish I had documented this incident better, but I the time I was early into my Jacob experience and didn't give it that much thought.






?




_______________________________________________
Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list




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Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
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From Jacobflock at aol.com  Wed Sep 23 23:06:13 2009
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 23:06:13 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
Message-ID: <c67.5faf6ca6.37ec3c25@aol.com>

This is an offering of some references which may help  illuminate some of 
the comments that Neal has offered and may  represent some basic Jacob 
information for some new "listers":
 
1. Oryx magazine (12/70) expressed concern that the "original" Park sheep,  
recently popularized by the Jacob Sheep Society, would be improved and  
standardized in an effort to conserve the breed; the primitive characteristics  
would be lost by conformance to a breed standard and "marketing 
opportunity"  improvements.  The ARK (6/74) noted that the Jacob of 1974 was about  40% 
larger than the 1969 version  and no longer "looked" like its  primitive 
ancestor.
 
2. The Jacobs imported to Canada(e.g., Turner) could have been primitive  
types or improved, it is not clear on what basis the flock was originally  
formed.  On the other hand, those imported by Hescock were selected as  
"improved" type as he had a "commercial" purpose in mind ("Importing woes were  
worth it",Sheep Product, 7/84).  There is some genetic evidence to suggest  
that, when Hescock moved his flock to Turner's place for quarantine, some  
breeding between the flocks occurred based on the TS gene (TAMU, 2000, 2009;  
NYU, 2008).
 
3. The "standardization" of the Jacob in North America can be laid to the  
small gene pool, often referred to as a genetic bottleneck and flock  
structure (few rams).  The study by the USDA-NGP (2/04) covered over  2,000 births 
and indicated the rapidly increasing percent of inbred  animals from 1983 
to 1994 and a more positive trend of reduced  inbreeding from 1995 to 2002.  
The 1983-1994 period was a period that  contributed greatly to "fixing" the 
Jacob=American traits but  also marked a period of a relatively high 
incidence of congenital  problems in the breed.
 
4. The appellation used so often by Jacob breeders...  "a unique  breed".. 
finally was verified in 6/2005 when the USDA-NGP did the mDNA based  study 
to look at breed distances.  The Jacob did turn out to be unique  and the 
"Spanish four-horn" was not closely related to the Spanish  "churro".
 
I hope the above with the sourced information will be helpful in  
understanding the Jacob breed ... of course there is more.
 
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Rd.
Lucas, TX 75002
972-727-0900
 
 
In a message dated 9/20/2009 2:12:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:

Everything has a starting point. What we call  purebred is a collection of 
animals of similar traits that have been isolated,  inbred, and reselected 
for type. It might have been 50 years ago, or 150  years ago, or 1500 years 
ago. Other than Soay, which is not strictly a  domestic breed, the only thing 
that would fit the later standard would be  Merino and English Longwool. 
(Neither exists in a form that they had 1500  years ago).  
 
You don't say wither the sheep you saw had  mixed Jacob ancestry. I have 
seen plenty of 3/4  Jacob lambs. There is always something askew with these 
sheep: the fleece is  too heavy, early greying, the bone is too round, the 
color pattern is  funky, ...something. There is no Jacob gene. Jacob-ness comes 
from a  combination of many genes and many traits. It is certainly  
possible that Jacob Crossbreds, bred back to each other might produce a lamb  with 
a good degree of Jacob type, but there would be a significant amount of  
off-type character that would show up without careful reselection. That  
doesn't mean that I think that we should allow these animals into a  registry...we 
have already done the hard work of multi-generation  standardization for 
type for an animal that mostly agrees to what we mostly  agree on. With lack 
of a sample of DNA from a representative group of  sheep from 1880, that is 
the best we can do.
 
Neal Grose 
North  Carolina


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From fourhornfarm at verizon.net  Thu Sep 24 11:53:36 2009
From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 11:53:36 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] importations
References: <c67.5faf6ca6.37ec3c25@aol.com>
Message-ID: <7580FA7F0E374EA3BBDEEC7362F5C372@DollyLama>

Very interesting Neal and Fred. What information do you have on the changes in Jacob fleeces over the years?
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jacobflock at aol.com 
  To: nlgrose at yadtel.net ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2009 11:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] importations


  This is an offering of some references which may help illuminate some of the comments that Neal has offered and may represent some basic Jacob information for some new "listers":

  1. Oryx magazine (12/70) expressed concern that the "original" Park sheep, recently popularized by the Jacob Sheep Society, would be improved and standardized in an effort to conserve the breed; the primitive characteristics would be lost by conformance to a breed standard and "marketing opportunity" improvements.  The ARK (6/74) noted that the Jacob of 1974 was about 40% larger than the 1969 version  and no longer "looked" like its primitive ancestor.

  2. The Jacobs imported to Canada(e.g., Turner) could have been primitive types or improved, it is not clear on what basis the flock was originally formed.  On the other hand, those imported by Hescock were selected as "improved" type as he had a "commercial" purpose in mind ("Importing woes were worth it",Sheep Product, 7/84).  There is some genetic evidence to suggest that, when Hescock moved his flock to Turner's place for quarantine, some breeding between the flocks occurred based on the TS gene (TAMU, 2000, 2009; NYU, 2008).

  3. The "standardization" of the Jacob in North America can be laid to the small gene pool, often referred to as a genetic bottleneck and flock structure (few rams).  The study by the USDA-NGP (2/04) covered over 2,000 births and indicated the rapidly increasing percent of inbred animals from 1983 to 1994 and a more positive trend of reduced inbreeding from 1995 to 2002.  The 1983-1994 period was a period that contributed greatly to "fixing" the Jacob=American traits but also marked a period of a relatively high incidence of congenital problems in the breed.

  4. The appellation used so often by Jacob breeders...  "a unique breed".. finally was verified in 6/2005 when the USDA-NGP did the mDNA based study to look at breed distances.  The Jacob did turn out to be unique and the "Spanish four-horn" was not closely related to the Spanish "churro".

  I hope the above with the sourced information will be helpful in understanding the Jacob breed ... of course there is more.

  Fred Horak
  St. Jude's Farm
  1165 E. Lucas Rd.
  Lucas, TX 75002
  972-727-0900

  In a message dated 9/20/2009 2:12:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:
    Everything has a starting point. What we call purebred is a collection of animals of similar traits that have been isolated, inbred, and reselected for type. It might have been 50 years ago, or 150 years ago, or 1500 years ago. Other than Soay, which is not strictly a domestic breed, the only thing that would fit the later standard would be Merino and English Longwool. (Neither exists in a form that they had 1500 years ago).  

    You don't say wither the sheep you saw had mixed Jacob ancestry. I have seen plenty of 3/4 Jacob lambs. There is always something askew with these sheep: the fleece is too heavy, early greying, the bone is too round, the color pattern is funky, ...something. There is no Jacob gene. Jacob-ness comes from a combination of many genes and many traits. It is certainly possible that Jacob Crossbreds, bred back to each other might produce a lamb with a good degree of Jacob type, but there would be a significant amount of off-type character that would show up without careful reselection. That doesn't mean that I think that we should allow these animals into a registry...we have already done the hard work of multi-generation standardization for type for an animal that mostly agrees to what we mostly agree on. With lack of a sample of DNA from a representative group of sheep from 1880, that is the best we can do.

    Neal Grose 
    North Carolina


------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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  Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
  http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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From hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us  Thu Sep 24 12:32:39 2009
From: hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us (hobbyknobfarm)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:32:39 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Mountain state fair sheep show
Message-ID: <8CBC213BC3FD46DBAFD759AEFDECDC9F@daron1>

We just had our wool sheep show here in Asheville. Elke brought 3 lambs, one of which was a very nice Jacob ewe lamb from her ewe and my ram Andy (well, Andy actually was a result of a purchase of a bred ewe from Cheryl 3 years ago, but he was born here) Anyway, that little ewe lamb was 1st place in fine wool (we have no Jacob class at our fair) and Grand Champion fleece in fine wool - she is a very nice ewe lamb, and is for sale by the way, and the judge is a fleece/spinner/breeder so she really looks at fleeces when she judges. I had to toot Elke's horn as she is not on this list. You too can show some Jacob's at SAFF here in October. I imagine this little lamb will be there then along with my one ewe lamb and maybe a yearling if I have the energy to get her used to the halter again. 
Elizabeth 
www.hobbyknobfarm.com
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 24 16:21:55 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:21:55 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada??
Message-ID: <000501ca3d54$a992d540$7814b8a1@RIVENDELL>

A question posed to the list.how many Canadians are left possessing
Jacobs?  Here in Alberta, I can list many who no longer have Jacobs, the
stats are very scary and I suppose I should go on the Canadian Livestock
Records registry database and see if any of these former owned Jacobs
are listed there under different ownership now.  I have heard many
threaten to "get out of Jacobs" through some means such as making
pepperoni out of their flock unless a valid owner steps forward soon to
buy their Jacobs.  No worries, ALL livestock is facing the same fate.not
picking on Jacobs solely by any means.  Even on this List there has been
downsizing and flock sales..sigh!

In just the past few years, Alberta Jacob breeders gone now are: Lisa,
Leonard, Judy (too old I believe now), Tyler, Bonnie, Pamela (may have
taken some up North); there are probably more that even this I did not
become acquainted with.the Can Rare Breeds flock is gone, dispersed.I
believe there is only myself and Linda/Dan now left in Alberta and
that's unsettling.  There are many livestock owners literally "dumping"
livestock at auctions all over the Prairies.if they had troubles with
producing their own feed, they sure would have it now trying to buy it.
We, fortunately, put by all our alfalfa in June and even purchased all
our livestock rations and grains at lower per bag prices than even last
year's.  We're good for just over two years now.but even we are
concerned about future costs to keep on what we have.  Not to do this
would be living under a rock.  Hauling in the oat straw bedding this
weekend and there, same price as in year's past.we locked in beginning
of this spring with our order.

One or two Jacob sheepers don't a happy "flock" make!

Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 24 16:22:05 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:22:05 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Congenital Problems in Jacobs
Message-ID: <000a01ca3d54$b0ebefc0$7814b8a1@RIVENDELL>

Heel low:

<Jacobflock at aol.com> Fred Horak wrote:

3. The "standardization" of the Jacob in North America can be laid to
the  
small gene pool, often referred to as a genetic bottleneck and flock  
structure (few rams).  The study by the USDA-NGP (2/04) covered over
2,000 births 
and indicated the rapidly increasing percent of inbred  animals from
1983 
to 1994 and a more positive trend of reduced  inbreeding from 1995 to
2002.  
The 1983-1994 period was a period that  contributed greatly to "fixing"
the 
Jacob=American traits but  also marked a period of a relatively high 
incidence of congenital  problems in the breed.

I have a 2003 Jacob ewe from what I consider are VERY inbred lines and
she is stone cold deaf.  Manages quite well in the flock, but is a
little "off" due to her condition.  Needless to say, I've never allowed
her to have progeny.

Would you consider the deafness to be directly linked to her inbreeding?
I have no real background in how ovines inherit deafness, tho I do have
a lot of experience in the canine incident of deafness (BAER testing
generations and differing levels of decibles along with the proven
"white hair" incident of deafness).

What other congenital problems have been identified in the Jacob breed
regarding issues limiting genetic diversity (setting breed type by
inbreeding).

Doggone,

Tara
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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Thu Sep 24 18:27:03 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:27:03 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Mountain state fair sheep show
In-Reply-To: <8CBC213BC3FD46DBAFD759AEFDECDC9F@daron1>
References: <8CBC213BC3FD46DBAFD759AEFDECDC9F@daron1>
Message-ID: <4ABBF237.30303@windstream.net>

Thanks for sharing and congrats to Elke!

Linda

hobbyknobfarm wrote:
> We just had our wool sheep show here in Asheville. Elke brought 3 
> lambs, one of which was a very nice Jacob ewe lamb from her ewe and my 
> ram Andy (well, Andy actually was a result of a purchase of a bred ewe 
> from Cheryl 3 years ago, but he was born here) Anyway, that little ewe 
> lamb was 1st place in fine wool (we have no Jacob class at our fair) 
> and Grand Champion fleece in fine wool - she is a very nice ewe lamb, 
> and is for sale by the way, and the judge is a fleece/spinner/breeder 
> so she really looks at fleeces when she judges. I had to toot Elke's 
> horn as she is not on this list. You too can show some Jacob's at SAFF 
> here in October. I imagine this little lamb will be there then along 
> with my one ewe lamb and maybe a yearling if I have the energy to get 
> her used to the halter again.
> Elizabeth
> www.hobbyknobfarm.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com  Thu Sep 24 18:41:06 2009
From: farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com (Laura C Frazier)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:41:06 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.113.1253829578.66726.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
References: <mailman.113.1253829578.66726.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
Message-ID: <E3F123E2-6C1C-4D84-8D41-297C88525D42@triad.rr.com>

I'm soliciting folks' opinions about and experiences with breeding  
ewe lambs that are 6 or more months old.

This list is SO helpful. Thanks everyone!!
Laura

Laura C Frazier
FarmGirl Arts
(336) 971-3834
Kernersville, NC
http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts



On Sep 24, 2009, at 5:59 PM, jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com wrote:

> Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to
> 	jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Mountain state fair sheep show (hobbyknobfarm)
>    2. Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada?? (ranchrat)
>    3. Congenital Problems in Jacobs (ranchrat)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:32:39 -0400
> From: "hobbyknobfarm" <hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us>
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Mountain state fair sheep show
> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Message-ID: <8CBC213BC3FD46DBAFD759AEFDECDC9F at daron1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> We just had our wool sheep show here in Asheville. Elke brought 3  
> lambs, one of which was a very nice Jacob ewe lamb from her ewe and  
> my ram Andy (well, Andy actually was a result of a purchase of a  
> bred ewe from Cheryl 3 years ago, but he was born here) Anyway,  
> that little ewe lamb was 1st place in fine wool (we have no Jacob  
> class at our fair) and Grand Champion fleece in fine wool - she is  
> a very nice ewe lamb, and is for sale by the way, and the judge is  
> a fleece/spinner/breeder so she really looks at fleeces when she  
> judges. I had to toot Elke's horn as she is not on this list. You  
> too can show some Jacob's at SAFF here in October. I imagine this  
> little lamb will be there then along with my one ewe lamb and maybe  
> a yearling if I have the energy to get her used to the halter again.
> Elizabeth
> www.hobbyknobfarm.com
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/ 
> 20090924/1278e92b/attachment.htm>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:21:55 -0600
> From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net>
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada??
> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Message-ID: <000501ca3d54$a992d540$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> A question posed to the list.how many Canadians are left possessing
> Jacobs?  Here in Alberta, I can list many who no longer have  
> Jacobs, the
> stats are very scary and I suppose I should go on the Canadian  
> Livestock
> Records registry database and see if any of these former owned Jacobs
> are listed there under different ownership now.  I have heard many
> threaten to "get out of Jacobs" through some means such as making
> pepperoni out of their flock unless a valid owner steps forward  
> soon to
> buy their Jacobs.  No worries, ALL livestock is facing the same  
> fate.not
> picking on Jacobs solely by any means.  Even on this List there has  
> been
> downsizing and flock sales..sigh!
>
> In just the past few years, Alberta Jacob breeders gone now are: Lisa,
> Leonard, Judy (too old I believe now), Tyler, Bonnie, Pamela (may have
> taken some up North); there are probably more that even this I did not
> become acquainted with.the Can Rare Breeds flock is gone, dispersed.I
> believe there is only myself and Linda/Dan now left in Alberta and
> that's unsettling.  There are many livestock owners literally  
> "dumping"
> livestock at auctions all over the Prairies.if they had troubles with
> producing their own feed, they sure would have it now trying to buy  
> it.
> We, fortunately, put by all our alfalfa in June and even purchased all
> our livestock rations and grains at lower per bag prices than even  
> last
> year's.  We're good for just over two years now.but even we are
> concerned about future costs to keep on what we have.  Not to do this
> would be living under a rock.  Hauling in the oat straw bedding this
> weekend and there, same price as in year's past.we locked in beginning
> of this spring with our order.
>
> One or two Jacob sheepers don't a happy "flock" make!
>
> Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/ 
> 20090924/72c32f55/attachment.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:22:05 -0600
> From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net>
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Congenital Problems in Jacobs
> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Message-ID: <000a01ca3d54$b0ebefc0$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Heel low:
>
> <Jacobflock at aol.com> Fred Horak wrote:
>
> 3. The "standardization" of the Jacob in North America can be laid to
> the
> small gene pool, often referred to as a genetic bottleneck and flock
> structure (few rams).  The study by the USDA-NGP (2/04) covered over
> 2,000 births
> and indicated the rapidly increasing percent of inbred  animals from
> 1983
> to 1994 and a more positive trend of reduced  inbreeding from 1995 to
> 2002.
> The 1983-1994 period was a period that  contributed greatly to  
> "fixing"
> the
> Jacob=American traits but  also marked a period of a relatively high
> incidence of congenital  problems in the breed.
>
> I have a 2003 Jacob ewe from what I consider are VERY inbred lines and
> she is stone cold deaf.  Manages quite well in the flock, but is a
> little "off" due to her condition.  Needless to say, I've never  
> allowed
> her to have progeny.
>
> Would you consider the deafness to be directly linked to her  
> inbreeding?
> I have no real background in how ovines inherit deafness, tho I do  
> have
> a lot of experience in the canine incident of deafness (BAER testing
> generations and differing levels of decibles along with the proven
> "white hair" incident of deafness).
>
> What other congenital problems have been identified in the Jacob breed
> regarding issues limiting genetic diversity (setting breed type by
> inbreeding).
>
> Doggone,
>
> Tara
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 24 19:02:30 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:02:30 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Determining Purebred Traits in Jacobs Part 1 of 2
Message-ID: <000001ca3d6b$1d791530$f917b8a1@RIVENDELL>

Part 1 of 2
Heel low:
There is an interesting study May 21, 2004, done on canines, link below.
What they wanted to do, more or less, was establish a genetic "makeup"
(a DNA description) for a dog breed.  Up until studies like this, you
could not look at the DNA of a canine and with any certainty, tell
whether it was a St. Bernard or a Poodle.  This was kinda strange
because up to that point, the phenotype (what it LOOKs like certainly
hinted at what breed it was), but in the genotype (the genetic make up,
what genetic material instructs the animal to appear as they do), we
were perfectly clueless.  If a baby was attacked by a "dog," and you had
a blood sample, DNA testing it would not bring you any closer to
identifying what "breed" had done the dastardly deed.  We have done some
very interesting genotyping in humans where we can take a sample and
have a pretty good idea what ancient peoples you descended from.it never
ceases to amaze me how many kewl things we are doing with DNA.
o       www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/304/5674/1160 
The trouble I had with this dog study was that OK, you want to define a
breed.so exactly which dog/dogs is/are going to be the "perfect"
representation of a St. Bernard.one that physically fits the standard
(of which country?) 100 percent?  No such animal exists tho I am certain
many a kennel owner would have their hand raised steadily in the air,
hoping that their strain was chosen over all others.  Years back, a dog
disease text was compiled and in there they wrote in that my particular
breed (Australian Cattle Dogs) had these many breed disorders. Many of
which I do concur the breed is predisposed to succumbing to (we DNA,.
X-ray, BAER hearing test, and go to ontholmologists annually to ensure
our breeding stock does not throw these disorders in their progeny-still
happens but helps lower the risks), but in some cases, no ACDs I know of
have EVER had some of these disorders.  We found out the book was based
upon studying mixed breeds of our breed, so may have skewed the results.
I would certainly want to know which ovines were chosen in any DNA study
where they were looking to determine a marker towards "purebred" Jacobs.
So another question is that to be representational of a breed, which
animal is also suppose to be "purebred."  Since humans cannot even
guarantee who their own offspring are sired by without a DNA parentage
test, whatever makes us think we could plausibly guarantee, for
generation upon generation that a Jacob Sheep was pure.  Those ancient
park sheep ran about and who could say that a "rammy" ram of some other
breed could not have assisted those Jacob flocks along-there has to be
divergence select for from the Mouflon or we'd not have "breeds" of
domestic sheep.  We do have some good ways of detecting the F1 crossbred
Jacob (most often very black and as Neal says, "There is always
something askew with these sheep"), but what if the F1's were smart
(hybrid vigour is a plausible answer to improvements.physical and
mental) and hid out and generations covered over impurities.  Are we all
satisfied that from 1880 (why this date.dang-I've dozed off and missed
something) we're all good?
You are allowed in some registries, to breed up.this term to me means
you start off with a breed of sheep on one side of the pedigree, back
cross to the breed you want until it reaches some point of "pureness."
I can't remember the exact fraction, maybe Neal can.7/8's or was it
15/16's.some such number.  Then you were allowed to register the animal
as a certain "purebred" livestock breed.  Purebred is suppose to be
determined as replication of itself.true breeding.


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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 24 19:02:53 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 17:02:53 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] Determining Purebred Traits in Jacobs Part 2 of 2
Message-ID: <000501ca3d6b$292201d0$f917b8a1@RIVENDELL>

Part 2 of 2
Mr. Horak mentions that:  "2. The Jacobs imported to Canada (e.g.,
Turner) could have been primitive types or improved, it is not clear on
what basis the flock was originally formed.  On the other hand, those
imported by Hescock were selected as "improved" type as he had a
"commercial" purpose in mind ("Importing woes were worth it", Sheep
Product, 7/84).  There is some genetic evidence to suggest that, when
Hescock moved his flock to Turner's place for quarantine, some breeding
between the flocks occurred based on the TS gene (TAMU, 2000, 2009; NYU,
2008)." 
So may I presume that this "TS gene" has been determined to be a
"marker" specific to the Jacob sheep breed?  Curious as to what this TS
gene is responsible for.is it simply a marker we have no idea what its
instructions produce or??   They used microsatellite genotypes to assign
dogs to specific breeds.was this done in Jacobs also?
4. The appellation used so often by Jacob breeders...  "a unique
breed".. finally was verified in 6/2005 when the USDA-NGP did the mDNA
based study
to look at breed distances.  The Jacob did turn out to be unique  and
the "Spanish four-horn" was not closely related to the Spanish
"churro".
This sounds like the canine study.  By "breed distances," I will presume
that certain genetically identifiable characteristics were chosen and
then used to see how far sheep "breeds" were from each other. Polycerate
piebaldness would certainly put Jacobs in a smaller capsule of
genetically identifiable sheep breeds.  What criterion makes a Jacob,
well gulp, a Jacob?
Does anyone know anything about the exact Jacobs that were used in the
study; were any lilac?  How many horns did they possess.where any top
winning "show sheep" having competed against their peers, how was the
DNA sample collected; blood or cheek swab?  I tried goggling; "Jacob
Sheep USDA-NGP mDNA study" and got nuthun'!  
I do seem to recall that Mr. Horak feels that many of our North American
population of Jacobs are not one and the same as those now found in
Great Britain.  We do not have so much pressure to "commercialize" our
Jacobs.  Has anyone had any success or even bothered to pursue that we
here in North America should be able to once again have OUR Jacobs
listed on the American/Canadian Rare Breeds list?  I believe Jacob Sheep
were removed when tens of thousands of, and I loosely quote this,
"Jacobs" in Great Britain inferred that the Jacob breed of sheep was no
longer considered rare and therefore worth conservation efforts.  Wasn't
there some talk of calling NA Jacobs something to distinguish them from
the "commercialized" Jacobs found elsewhere?
Doggone,
Tara 
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From ranchrat at telusplanet.net  Thu Sep 24 20:12:01 2009
From: ranchrat at telusplanet.net (ranchrat)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:12:01 -0600
Subject: [Jacob-list] skulls and SUED
Message-ID: <000001ca3d74$d7a22970$d611b8a1@RIVENDELL>

Hi All 
Skulls and SUED. I know this is discussed every few months - here in
Britain it has come up again, this time on the Shetland Breeders group.
You might not expect that, but every now and then four horned
individuals appear within the Shetland Breed and the incidence of SUED
in them is very high. 
My question is: has anyone over there in America, where you are able to
get your hands on your animals skulls, which we are not here in Britain,
seen any bony defect of the orbit in animals know to have had split
upper eyelids? 
Of course everyone has their own ideas of the cause and inheritance of
four horns and SUED - here there are two main factions, one saying that
SUED is part of the split of the horns, extending down into the bone of
the orbit; the second opinion says that the defect is limited to the
soft tissues. I have seen skulls of four horned sheep known to have had
split eyelids, but with no bony defect and I have not seen one
displaying a defect, but my experience is very limited as we are not
allowed to retrieve skulls from the abattoir. 
Your experiences would be very helpful - thank you. 
Juliet Johnston 
Scotland UK 
-------------- 

Heel low Juliet:

I've seen no reply to your post on the list, so here goes.

In Ingrid Painter's excellent book, "Jacob Sheep in America," page 29
shows a black and white photo of a four horn skull with a notched upper
portion in the white skull's right side eye socket.  Caption reads,
"Figure 24.  Skull showing deformity in the upper part of the eye
socket."   

Here then is documented and published proof that you seek, "bony defect
of the orbit in animals know to have had split upper eyelids."

Page 30 states, "These examples are the worst kind and often render the
sheep blind in that eye.  These are heritable faults so the sheep should
not be kept for breeding."

Here I have my own personal experiences to draw upon.  Yes, the sheep
will probably become blind in the eye with type 4 SUED if nothing is
done.  Dust would not be sweept out of the eye with a notch in the
eyelid and I can only imagine the discomfort of that situation!!  I had
a ram lamb, full birth brother to a six horn ewe (sire 2-horn, dam
four-horn which I will address shortly) born as a four-horn.  Right from
birth, you could see his top eye lids were notched in both eyes.  I felt
he was a type four tho Ingrid's type four was more extreme than his.  I
left him intact until he was six months old.my vet well warned and
prepared.took him in for surgery (sedation is NOT received well by
ruminants.it was risking his life as my vet advised me, we could have
lost him on the table or from not coming out of sedation).  Long story
short, he is a full and active "it" here, providing me with one of the
MOST lovely fleeces (he was soft as a pillow to start and sans the
testosterone now.still very nice).  No, I did not use him to breed and I
often wondered "what if" but was chicken to try.  How many more $300
bills is my husband and I suppose to shrug off as legitimate expenses
raising Jacobs.most would have bought mint sauce and prepared the ram
lamb accordingly.I have never heard of any other soul, having eye
surgery performed on a Jacob to correct SUED.speak up if you have, I'd
be delighted to hear of shared insanity.

When this Jacob finally passes, I will make sure and render his skull
and send you a photo of his skull pending you do not change addys.  I
unfortunately do not have pictures of his type 4 eyelids, didn't have a
digital back then.I took pics and when I developed the film, it was all
fuzzy!!  Sigh.

I have been told that in Scotland, and Juliet, you can answer me
privately or here on the list as to whether I have heard correctly, but
in Scotland they took to breeding for two horn Jacobs, in the hopes to
avoid split eye deformities all together.  I am also advised that even
two horned sheep express split eye deformities.  I think someone on the
list mentioned examples seen of two horn sheep that had this???

Now regarding people's preferences not to use two-horns here in North
America.thinking 2-horns only throw the same when they want all four
horns or more.  This two horn, he was from four-horn  parents and the
four horn dam, was also from 4-horn parents as well.with this lineage,
there was no issue and a two horn sire produced a four horn ram and a
six horn ewe.the splitting of the horn core, obviously was a little
extreme in the male's side.  He is considerably less big than intact
rams of the same age, but his dam is not huge, so I cannot concur that
altering him has made him smaller than he should be as an adult.his horn
growth is reduced and matches his body size.  I have heard that horn
growth becomes retarded when you alter a male horned sheep.

Hope this helps you.

Doggone,

Tara

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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Thu Sep 24 20:27:20 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 20:27:20 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
In-Reply-To: <E3F123E2-6C1C-4D84-8D41-297C88525D42@triad.rr.com>
References: <mailman.113.1253829578.66726.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
	<E3F123E2-6C1C-4D84-8D41-297C88525D42@triad.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4ABC0E68.6070104@windstream.net>

I bred ewe lambs for years. I spoke once with one of the foundation 
breeders here in the south, who said that his ewe lambs would breed at 
50 lbs, deliver a lamb (or two) in the spring and still have gained 
weight. His sheep were more primitive than some of what we see now.
I quit breeding ewe lambs because when Dave asks "how many ewes do we 
have?", I figure I don't have to count the unbred ewe lambs. :-). Joking 
(sort of). I have a limit on just how many ewes I want lambing in the 
spring. I'd rather sell an adult ewe than keep her open. If I'm going to 
hold some ewes out of the breeding population, it seems to make more 
sense that I hold out the ewe lambs.
This year, I have only one ewe lamb. She is keeping company with our 
retired matriarch. If something happened to our old girl, I'd breed the 
ewe lamb.
As far as experiences, my ewes that lambed as yearlings were good 
mothers and needed no assistance during lambing or with raising the lambs.
I was fortunate enough to own Craft's Praline in her later years (thank 
you, Patrice). She arrived at Small Meadows from Craft's bred to 
Puddleduck Sir James and delivered twins as a yearling and continued to 
deliver twins and triplets throughout her long life.








Laura C Frazier wrote:
> I'm soliciting folks' opinions about and experiences with breeding ewe 
> lambs that are 6 or more months old. 
>
> This list is SO helpful. Thanks everyone!!
> Laura
>
> Laura C Frazier
> FarmGirl Arts
> (336) 971-3834
> Kernersville, NC
> http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts
>
>
>

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From aztreaz at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 25 00:45:44 2009
From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE)
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 21:45:44 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] Georgia floods
Message-ID: <410-22009952544544906@earthlink.net>

Good to see some email from Linda.  I hope the flooding wasn't a problem
where she lives.  I thought they were still having a drought!


Cathy
Moscow, Idaho
nothing happens here



From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Fri Sep 25 06:06:43 2009
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 06:06:43 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Georgia floods
References: <410-22009952544544906@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <89B5A52D124E4E37A338BC580B212749@HAL2>

The two are not mutually exclusive. I had ducks swimming in a cornfield on 
June 15, and that was the last time it rained until this latest deluge. 
Thankfully, we have had rainy weather, not the 4-5 inch rains down Georgia. 
Even so, we lost 1 cutting of hay from constant rain and another from 
draught...all in the same summer. This may wind up being my worst crop year.

Neal
North Carolina


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ARTHUR PARTRIDGE" <aztreaz at earthlink.net>
To: "jacob-list" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
Cc: <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 12:45 AM
Subject: [Jacob-list] Georgia floods


> Good to see some email from Linda.  I hope the flooding wasn't a problem
> where she lives.  I thought they were still having a drought!
>
>
> Cathy
> Moscow, Idaho
> nothing happens here
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> 


From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Fri Sep 25 06:53:40 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 06:53:40 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Georgia floods
In-Reply-To: <89B5A52D124E4E37A338BC580B212749@HAL2>
References: <410-22009952544544906@earthlink.net>
	<89B5A52D124E4E37A338BC580B212749@HAL2>
Message-ID: <4ABCA134.4090609@windstream.net>

Try 20 inches of rain - 11 in one day. Some of the lakes rose 3 feet 
almost overnight. We're the side of a mountain, so other than minor 
erosion (my ditches held up pretty well) and mud, we were fine. If there 
had been any wind along with all that rain, we'd be dealing with alot of 
downed trees. Luckily, the winds were calm.

They say we officially are out of the drought after this last rain, but 
I sure agree with Neal. If you're trying to grow pasture or crops, you 
need the rain spread out over the year. Our yearly rainfall totals are 
getting close to normal again,  but over a third of that rain fell in a 
five day period. If we don't get a drop of rain for the rest of the 
year, we'll probably still be considered out of the drought, but we'll 
be pretty dry.

Linda


Neal and Louise Grose wrote:
> The two are not mutually exclusive. I had ducks swimming in a 
> cornfield on June 15, and that was the last time it rained until this 
> latest deluge. Thankfully, we have had rainy weather, not the 4-5 inch 
> rains down Georgia. Even so, we lost 1 cutting of hay from constant 
> rain and another from draught...all in the same summer. This may wind 
> up being my worst crop year.
>
> Neal
> North Carolina
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ARTHUR PARTRIDGE" 
> <aztreaz at earthlink.net>
> To: "jacob-list" <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Cc: <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
> Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 12:45 AM
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Georgia floods
>
>
>> Good to see some email from Linda.  I hope the flooding wasn't a problem
>> where she lives.  I thought they were still having a drought!
>>
>>
>> Cathy
>> Moscow, Idaho
>> nothing happens here
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
>> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From paintedrockfarm at aol.com  Fri Sep 25 07:32:35 2009
From: paintedrockfarm at aol.com (Cheryl Terrano)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 07:32:35 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
In-Reply-To: <E3F123E2-6C1C-4D84-8D41-297C88525D42@triad.rr.com>
References: <mailman.113.1253829578.66726.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
	<E3F123E2-6C1C-4D84-8D41-297C88525D42@triad.rr.com>
Message-ID: <8CC0BEB0358ABC5-57A8-982@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com>


HI Laura,



A two cents worth from our 10 years experience in Jacobs....



Within our own flock, we elect NOT to breed our ewe lambs. For us, it boils down to numbers and trying to maintain a certain number of lambs being born each spring. This, however, was not always the case. When we first purchased our sheep, we began with 2 proven ewes (lambed out by their first birthday) and 3 ewe lambs that we bred that fall. Or proven ewes twinned and our ewe lambs each singled. I should point out the singles were all large lambs and one ewe had great difficulty in her delivery, losing the lamb. Over the next 2 years, we continued to breed our ewe lambs on their lambing year without difficulty.



We have experimented also?in breeding one twin ewe while?allowing?the other twin remain open and have found a consistent difference in development size of the same ewe at 2 years of age. The ewe bred as a lamb often was 10-20% smaller in overall body size than the ewe left open in her first year. Ewes we bred at 18 months who subsequently lambed out by the 2nd birthday often twin their first time (this was in about 85% of our cases). So, production numbers over their lifetime only differ by that single lamb produced on their first year. When we have elected to breed a ewe on her lambing year, we generally chose the largest ewe lambs who are often singles themselves born to first time mothers. One other note was?we also found that certain ewes bred as lambs would often single two years in a row?before twinning consistently in later years. Odd, yes, ?but certain bloodlines we have here seem to be quite regular at that particular lambing schedule.



What we have found most consistent over the years is definitely the maturity of the ewe mentally. Our?2 year old ewes who lambed their first time (twins or singles) seem to be calmer and more?patient mothers. Many (not all) of those who lambed their first birthday were still very good mothers but did seem to take longer to fully bond to their lamb. A handful?required 1-2 extra days in the lambing jug when compared to the first-time mothers who were another?year older. Our Jacobs are all excellent mothers and that is a trait we expect in all our progeny. We did, however, notice a slight difference in the ewes temperament to be calmer with an additional year of growth before mating.



Of course, these are our own personal shepherding experiences and what works for us. We take many options into consideration when planning our breeding groups.?We are approaching our 11th lambing season and we have chosen NOT to breed ewes on their lamb year. It works for us but may not be practical for another flock or shepherd(ess). I'm certain you will receive some interesting replies to your question and hope other breeders will contribute their experiences to this thread.



Good luck!
Mike & Cheryl Terrano?

Painted Rock Farm --- WV



http://paintedrockfarm.blogspot.com
http://www.paintedrockfarm.com

God longs to bring us to the place where we ache so much with His heart that to do nothing is simply no longer an option. (MATT REDMAN, The Unquenchable Worshipper)

We will live as strangers and pilgrims on this earth, with sacrifice, commitment, tears and fasting, and touch the lost world with our lifestyle and commitment. (KP YOHANNAN, Founder, GOSPEL FOR ASIA)

WHEN EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE SHAKEN IS SHAKEN, THE ANCHOR THAT HOLDS IS THE WISDOM OF THE CROSS. (Jason Upton, Key of David Ministries, from the CD 1200 ft below sea level).

If you want to see God's power at work, you must get out of the church and into the world. Watch the extravagant lengths which God will go to reveal Himself to people who don't know Him. Then you will learn how truly awesome our God is. (Author Unknown)


-----Original Message-----
From: Laura C Frazier <farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com>
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2009 6:41 pm
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs


I'm soliciting folks' opinions about and experiences with breeding ewe lambs that are 6 or more months old.?



This list is SO helpful. Thanks everyone!!

Laura



Laura C Frazier

FarmGirl Arts

(336) 971-3834

Kernersville, NC

http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts






On Sep 24, 2009, at 5:59 PM, jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com wrote:



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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific

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Today's Topics:




?? 1. Mountain state fair sheep show (hobbyknobfarm)

?? 2. Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada?? (ranchrat)

?? 3. Congenital Problems in Jacobs (ranchrat)







----------------------------------------------------------------------




Message: 1

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:32:39 -0400

From: "hobbyknobfarm" <hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us>

Subject: [Jacob-list] Mountain state fair sheep show

To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

Message-ID: <8CBC213BC3FD46DBAFD759AEFDECDC9F at daron1>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"




We just had our wool sheep show here in Asheville. Elke brought 3 lambs, one of which was a very nice Jacob ewe lamb from her ewe and my ram Andy (well, Andy actually was a result of a purchase of a bred ewe from Cheryl 3 years ago, but he was born here) Anyway, that little ewe lamb was 1st place in fine wool (we have no Jacob class at our fair) and Grand Champion fleece in fine wool - she is a very nice ewe lamb, and is for sale by the way, and the judge is a fleece/spinner/breeder so she really looks at fleeces when she judges. I had to toot Elke's horn as she is not on this list. You too can show some Jacob's at SAFF here in October. I imagine this little lamb will be there then along with my one ewe lamb and maybe a yearling if I have the energy to get her used to the halter again.?

Elizabeth?

www.hobbyknobfarm.com

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------------------------------




Message: 2

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:21:55 -0600

From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net>

Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada??

To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

Message-ID: <000501ca3d54$a992d540$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"




A question posed to the list.how many Canadians are left possessing

Jacobs?? Here in Alberta, I can list many who no longer have Jacobs, the

stats are very scary and I suppose I should go on the Canadian Livestock

Records registry database and see if any of these former owned Jacobs

are listed there under different ownership now.? I have heard many

threaten to "get out of Jacobs" through some means such as making

pepperoni out of their flock unless a valid owner steps forward soon to

buy their Jacobs.? No worries, ALL livestock is facing the same fate.not

picking on Jacobs solely by any means.? Even on this List there has been

downsizing and flock sales..sigh!




In just the past few years, Alberta Jacob breeders gone now are: Lisa,

Leonard, Judy (too old I believe now), Tyler, Bonnie, Pamela (may have

taken some up North); there are probably more that even this I did not

become acquainted with.the Can Rare Breeds flock is gone, dispersed.I

believe there is only myself and Linda/Dan now left in Alberta and

that's unsettling.? There are many livestock owners literally "dumping"

livestock at auctions all over the Prairies.if they had troubles with

producing their own feed, they sure would have it now trying to buy it.

We, fortunately, put by all our alfalfa in June and even purchased all

our livestock rations and grains at lower per bag prices than even last

year's.? We're good for just over two years now.but even we are

concerned about future costs to keep on what we have.? Not to do this

would be living under a rock.? Hauling in the oat straw bedding this

weekend and there, same price as in year's past.we locked in beginning

of this spring with our order.




One or two Jacob sheepers don't a happy "flock" make!




Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta

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------------------------------




Message: 3

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:22:05 -0600

From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net>

Subject: [Jacob-list] Congenital Problems in Jacobs

To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>

Message-ID: <000a01ca3d54$b0ebefc0$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"




Heel low:




<Jacobflock at aol.com> Fred Horak wrote:




3. The "standardization" of the Jacob in North America can be laid to

the ?

small gene pool, often referred to as a genetic bottleneck and flock ?

structure (few rams).? The study by the USDA-NGP (2/04) covered over

2,000 births?

and indicated the rapidly increasing percent of inbred? animals from

1983?

to 1994 and a more positive trend of reduced? inbreeding from 1995 to

2002. ?

The 1983-1994 period was a period that? contributed greatly to "fixing"

the?

Jacob=American traits but? also marked a period of a relatively high?

incidence of congenital? problems in the breed.




I have a 2003 Jacob ewe from what I consider are VERY inbred lines and

she is stone cold deaf.? Manages quite well in the flock, but is a

little "off" due to her condition.? Needless to say, I've never allowed

her to have progeny.




Would you consider the deafness to be directly linked to her inbreeding?

I have no real background in how ovines inherit deafness, tho I do have

a lot of experience in the canine incident of deafness (BAER testing

generations and differing levels of decibles along with the proven

"white hair" incident of deafness).




What other congenital problems have been identified in the Jacob breed

regarding issues limiting genetic diversity (setting breed type by

inbreeding).




Doggone,




Tara

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End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24

******************************************




= 


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From aztreaz at earthlink.net  Fri Sep 25 13:34:57 2009
From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 10:34:57 -0700
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
Message-ID: <410-220099525173457796@earthlink.net>

>I'm soliciting folks' opinions about and experiences with breeding ewe
lambs that are 6 or more months old.?
>This list is SO helpful. Thanks everyone!!
 >
>Laura
=======
We wait until they are at least 9 or 10 months old, sometimes wait until
they are a year and a half.  My ewe lambs are way too small at 6 months! 
Also, I bought a pregnant ewe that was bred when she was 7 months.  When
the lamb was born, she didn't have any milk for it for several days.  I had
to find a source of colostrum.  I took them both to the vet and they gave
the ewe a shot of oxycytocin, a hormone to "bring the milk down", which it
finally did.  I think the ewe was too young to have been bred and she
wasn't ready.  After the first three days, she was a great mom and still is.

Cathy
Moscow, Idaho




From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Fri Sep 25 19:58:07 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 19:58:07 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
In-Reply-To: <8CC0BEB0358ABC5-57A8-982@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com>
References: <mailman.113.1253829578.66726.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>	<E3F123E2-6C1C-4D84-8D41-297C88525D42@triad.rr.com>
	<8CC0BEB0358ABC5-57A8-982@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4ABD590F.5090307@windstream.net>

Your findings over the years are really interesting - thank you.
For me, it also often boils down to numbers. If I only want to breed X 
number of ewes, it makes the most sense to breed the older girls and 
leave the ewe lambs open.
We've had lambs born here since '93 and have never had a problem with 
any Jacob yearling ewe raising her lamb successfully. But, I do think 
they require a little extra attention - just in case. I should rephrase 
that - they may need a little extra watching, but new shepherds often 
jump in too quickly, which can confuse a young mother.
I've only got one ewe lamb right now. If she didn't have RubyBelle for 
company, I would have her in a breeding group.

Linda


Cheryl Terrano wrote:
> HI Laura,
>  
> A two cents worth from our 10 years experience in Jacobs....
>  
> Within our own flock, we elect NOT to breed our ewe lambs. For us, it 
> boils down to numbers and trying to maintain a certain number of lambs 
> being born each spring. This, however, was not always the case. When 
> we first purchased our sheep, we began with 2 proven ewes (lambed out 
> by their first birthday) and 3 ewe lambs that we bred that fall. Or 
> proven ewes twinned and our ewe lambs each singled. I should point out 
> the singles were all large lambs and one ewe had great difficulty in 
> her delivery, losing the lamb. Over the next 2 years, we continued to 
> breed our ewe lambs on their lambing year without difficulty.
>  
> We have experimented also in breeding one twin ewe while allowing the 
> other twin remain open and have found a consistent difference in 
> development size of the same ewe at 2 years of age. The ewe bred as a 
> lamb often was 10-20% smaller in overall body size than the ewe left 
> open in her first year. Ewes we bred at 18 months who subsequently 
> lambed out by the 2nd birthday often twin their first time (this was 
> in about 85% of our cases). So, production numbers over their lifetime 
> only differ by that single lamb produced on their first year. When we 
> have elected to breed a ewe on her lambing year, we generally chose 
> the largest ewe lambs who are often singles themselves born to first 
> time mothers. One other note was we also found that certain ewes bred 
> as lambs would often single two years in a row before twinning 
> consistently in later years. Odd, yes,  but certain bloodlines we have 
> here seem to be quite regular at that particular lambing schedu le.
>  
> What we have found most consistent over the years is definitely the 
> maturity of the ewe mentally. Our 2 year old ewes who lambed their 
> first time (twins or singles) seem to be calmer and more patient 
> mothers. Many (not all) of those who lambed their first birthday were 
> still very good mothers but did seem to take longer to fully bond to 
> their lamb. A handful required 1-2 extra days in the lambing jug when 
> compared to the first-time mothers who were another year older. Our 
> Jacobs are all excellent mothers and that is a trait we expect in all 
> our progeny. We did, however, notice a slight difference in the ewes 
> temperament to be calmer with an additional year of growth before mating.
>  
> Of course, these are our own personal shepherding experiences and what 
> works for us. We take many options into consideration when planning 
> our breeding groups. We are approaching our 11th lambing season and we 
> have chosen NOT to breed ewes on their lamb year. It works for us but 
> may not be practical for another flock or shepherd(ess). I'm certain 
> you will receive some interesting replies to your question and hope 
> other breeders will contribute their experiences to this thread.
>  
> Good luck!
> Mike & Cheryl Terrano 
> Painted Rock Farm --- WV
>  
> http://paintedrockfarm.blogspot.com
> http://www.paintedrockfarm.com
>
> God longs to bring us to the place where we ache so much with His 
> heart that to do nothing is simply no longer an option. (MATT REDMAN, 
> The Unquenchable Worshipper)
>
> We will live as strangers and pilgrims on this earth, with sacrifice, 
> commitment, tears and fasting, and touch the lost world with our 
> lifestyle and commitment. (KP YOHANNAN, Founder, GOSPEL FOR ASIA)
>
> WHEN EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE SHAKEN IS SHAKEN, THE ANCHOR THAT HOLDS IS 
> THE WISDOM OF THE CROSS. (Jason Upton, Key of David Ministries, from 
> the CD 1200 ft below sea level).
>
> If you want to see God's power at work, you must get out of the church 
> and into the world. Watch the extravagant lengths which God will go to 
> reveal Himself to people who don't know Him. Then you will learn how 
> truly awesome our God is. (Author Unknown)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laura C Frazier <farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com>
> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> Sent: Thu, Sep 24, 2009 6:41 pm
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
>
> I'm soliciting folks' opinions about and experiences with breeding ewe 
> lambs that are 6 or more months old. 
>
> This list is SO helpful. Thanks everyone!!
> Laura
>
> Laura C Frazier
> FarmGirl Arts
> (336) 971-3834
> Kernersville, NC
> http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts
>
>
>
> On Sep 24, 2009, at 5:59 PM, jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com 
> <mailto:jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com> wrote:
>
>> Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to
>> jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com 
>> <mailto:jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com>
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com>
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Mountain state fair sheep show (hobbyknobfarm)
>>    2. Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada?? (ranchrat)
>>    3. Congenital Problems in Jacobs (ranchrat)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:32:39 -0400
>> From: "hobbyknobfarm" <hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us 
>> <mailto:hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us>>
>> Subject: [Jacob-list] Mountain state fair sheep show
>> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>>
>> Message-ID: <8CBC213BC3FD46DBAFD759AEFDECDC9F at daron1>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>
>> We just had our wool sheep show here in Asheville. Elke brought 3 
>> lambs, one of which was a very nice Jacob ewe lamb from her ewe and 
>> my ram Andy (well, Andy actually was a result of a purchase of a bred 
>> ewe from Cheryl 3 years ago, but he was born here) Anyway, that 
>> little ewe lamb was 1st place in fine wool (we have no Jacob class at 
>> our fair) and Grand Champion fleece in fine wool - she is a very nice 
>> ewe lamb, and is for sale by the way, and the judge is a 
>> fleece/spinner/breeder so she really looks at fleeces when she 
>> judges. I had to toot Elke's horn as she is not on this list. You too 
>> can show some Jacob's at SAFF here in October. I imagine this little 
>> lamb will be there then along with my one ewe lamb and maybe a 
>> yearling if I have the energy to get her used to the halter again. 
>> Elizabeth 
>> www.hobbyknobfarm.com <http://www.hobbyknobfarm.com/>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:21:55 -0600
>> From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net 
>> <mailto:ranchrat at telusplanet.net>>
>> Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada??
>> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>>
>> Message-ID: <000501ca3d54$a992d540$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> A question posed to the list.how many Canadians are left possessing
>> Jacobs?  Here in Alberta, I can list many who no longer have Jacobs, the
>> stats are very scary and I suppose I should go on the Canadian Livestock
>> Records registry database and see if any of these former owned Jacobs
>> are listed there under different ownership now.  I have heard many
>> threaten to "get out of Jacobs" through some means such as making
>> pepperoni out of their flock unless a valid owner steps forward soon to
>> buy their Jacobs.  No worries, ALL livestock is facing the same fate.not
>> picking on Jacobs solely by any means.  Even on this List there has been
>> downsizing and flock sales..sigh!
>>
>> In just the past few years, Alberta Jacob breeders gone now are: Lisa,
>> Leonard, Judy (too old I believe now), Tyler, Bonnie, Pamela (may have
>> taken some up North); there are probably more that even this I did not
>> become acquainted with.the Can Rare Breeds flock is gone, dispersed.I
>> believe there is only myself and Linda/Dan now left in Alberta and
>> that's unsettling.  There are many livestock owners literally "dumping"
>> livestock at auctions all over the Prairies.if they had troubles with
>> producing their own feed, they sure would have it now trying to buy it.
>> We, fortunately, put by all our alfalfa in June and even purchased all
>> our livestock rations and grains at lower per bag prices than even last
>> year's.  We're good for just over two years now.but even we are
>> concerned about future costs to keep on what we have.  Not to do this
>> would be living under a rock.  Hauling in the oat straw bedding this
>> weekend and there, same price as in year's past.we locked in beginning
>> of this spring with our order.
>>
>> One or two Jacob sheepers don't a happy "flock" make!
>>
>> Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:22:05 -0600
>> From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net 
>> <mailto:ranchrat at telusplanet.net>>
>> Subject: [Jacob-list] Congenital Problems in Jacobs
>> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>>
>> Message-ID: <000a01ca3d54$b0ebefc0$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Heel low:
>>
>> <Jacobflock at aol.com <mailto:Jacobflock at aol.com>> Fred Horak wrote:
>>
>> 3. The "standardization" of the Jacob in North America can be laid to
>> the  
>> small gene pool, often referred to as a genetic bottleneck and flock  
>> structure (few rams).  The study by the USDA-NGP (2/04) covered over
>> 2,000 births 
>> and indicated the rapidly increasing percent of inbred  animals from
>> 1983 
>> to 1994 and a more positive trend of reduced  inbreeding from 1995 to
>> 2002.  
>> The 1983-1994 period was a period that  contributed greatly to "fixing"
>> the 
>> Jacob=American traits but  also marked a period of a relatively high 
>> incidence of congenital  problems in the breed.
>>
>> I have a 2003 Jacob ewe from what I consider are VERY inbred lines and
>> she is stone cold deaf.  Manages quite well in the flock, but is a
>> little "off" due to her condition.  Needless to say, I've never allowed
>> her to have progeny.
>>
>> Would you consider the deafness to be directly linked to her inbreeding?
>> I have no real background in how ovines inherit deafness, tho I do have
>> a lot of experience in the canine incident of deafness (BAER testing
>> generations and differing levels of decibles along with the proven
>> "white hair" incident of deafness).
>>
>> What other congenital problems have been identified in the Jacob breed
>> regarding issues limiting genetic diversity (setting breed type by
>> inbreeding).
>>
>> Doggone,
>>
>> Tara
>> -------------- next part --------------
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jacob-list mailing list
>> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
>> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>>
>>
>> End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24
>> ******************************************
>
> =
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com <mailto:Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From Jacobflock at aol.com  Fri Sep 25 20:24:01 2009
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 20:24:01 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] Inbreed/Linecross/Breed genetic variability
Message-ID: <c5a.550f40af.37eeb921@aol.com>

Interesting that the Holstein be mentioned.  I recall a party ... five  
years ago? ....  hosted by Gary and Gail Anderson in the California wine  
country ... don't recall the occasion for the party it was that good... but I  
met Harvey Blackburn over a glass of wine .. I corresponded with him 
previously  but a glass of wine waxed over my shyness ... and he was talking about 
these  black and white animals.  The subject was genetic diversity within a 
breed  (not cross breeding between breeds) and he mentioned Holstein cows: 
Sixteen  million of these that represent abouyt 85% of the cow population 
(distinguiished  from cattle).  As Harvey tells it, he comes out in the morning  
and says to the 16 million "Get in a line facing me".  He then says "You  
all look the same.  But if anyone of you is not related to another in the  
line, take four steps forward."  Do you know how many would step  forward?  
Yup, twenty five.  This is the ultimate line breeding and  the ultimate loss of 
breed genetic variability.  A lot of milk and cheese  but all the cows are 
related to the same few bulls who were probably State Fair  winners.  You 
know the drill.  Angus cattle are probably in a similar  fix.
 
Some inbreeding can be positive, some line cross breeding is  positive.  
Keep the line but keep the door open for linecross  breeding.  Don't get 
painted into a corner.  If all the animals in the  flock are closely related, 
inbreeding and inbreeding depression are fait  accompli.  Unrelated rams are 
the key and I suggest keeping the concept of  "effective population" in mind 
at breeding season.  A flock of one ram  and 30 ewes is an effectiive 
populatiuon of 4.  A flock of 3 rams  and 30 ewes is an effective population of 12. 
 Multiple rams are the  key.  The inbreeding coefficient per generation for 
the 1 ram/30 ewe flock  is aboiut 13%; in the second case it is a little 
over 4%.  Multiple rams,  not ewes, is the key to genetic variation and 
reduced inbreeding.
 
I recommend the ALBC book "Managing Breeds for a Secure Future" which has a 
 lot of basics and how to info.
 
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Road
Lucas, TX 75002
972-727-0900
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2009 7:46:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
nlgrose at yadtel.net writes:

The role of inbreeding in fixing type on  purebreds is important to note, 
and it is equally important to understand that  it is not the end of the 
world in a breed. Inbreeding has to be done with  the understanding that 
heartless culling must also take place. Genetic  expansion from an inbred 
population can also happen if we pay attention  to our breeding practices. All of the 
Holsteins in the United States came from  a fixed herdbook of relatively 
few individuals. New combinations of old  bloodlines allow novel combinations 
of genes. (That doesn't mean it is  not also worthwhile to preserve inbred 
lines of old bloodlines.)
 
We can increase genetic diversity within the  purebred population by 
shortening generation interval (eating the old rams and  using new ones), and by 
looking to our ewe flocks as the foundation of the  breed. Those males are 
mostly just for show.
 
Neal


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From nlgrose at yadtel.net  Fri Sep 25 22:18:59 2009
From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose)
Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:18:59 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Inbreed/Linecross/Breed genetic variability
References: <c5a.550f40af.37eeb921@aol.com>
Message-ID: <D10122E9E47F4FFBA84E8AA972CD0B19@HAL2>

It's true that Holsteins are more inbred than we would like. The thing is, they are more genetically diverse than they were in 1880, and are now MORE genetically diverse than the other dairy breeds. Numbers are important. Ayrshires are an example of a great breed that has become a genetically dead end because of overselection for a narrow end-result. At the Madison Dairy Expo, there will be almost as many Ayrshires as Holsteins in the show, despite the tremendous differences in cattle numbers in production. This means that the majority of Ayrshires are selected for show; whereas very few Holsteins are selected for show characteristics. 25% of the top 100 Holstein sires in AI today are sons of "Oman", but there are barely 25 bulls used in the entire Ayrshire breed, most of them are from just a few bull-sires.

Fred's statement:
"Unrelated rams are the key and I suggest keeping the concept of "effective population" in mind at breeding season.  A flock of one ram and 30 ewes is an effective population of 4.  A flock of 3 rams and 30 ewes is an effective population of 12.  Multiple rams are the key." 

Is one that I have been trying to get across for some time. The only thing that makes a ram "good" is that he sires good offspring. Why not use the best sons of a ram instead of using the same ram year after year? The sons are more genetically diverse than the original ram and provide and opportunity to reselect good offspring that preserve the diverse characteristics expressed from the flock. The clich? "the ram is half the flock" is a warning as well as an adage. We would rather have 3 rams be half the flock.

Neal Grose

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jacobflock at aol.com 
  To: nlgrose at yadtel.net ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com 
  Sent: Friday, September 25, 2009 8:24 PM
  Subject: [Jacob-list] Inbreed/Linecross/Breed genetic variability


  Interesting that the Holstein be mentioned.  I recall a party ... five years ago? ....  hosted by Gary and Gail Anderson in the California wine country ... don't recall the occasion for the party it was that good... but I met Harvey Blackburn over a glass of wine .. I corresponded with him previously but a glass of wine waxed over my shyness ... and he was talking about these black and white animals.  The subject was genetic diversity within a breed (not cross breeding between breeds) and he mentioned Holstein cows: Sixteen million of these that represent abouyt 85% of the cow population (distinguiished from cattle).  As Harvey tells it, he comes out in the morning and says to the 16 million "Get in a line facing me".  He then says "You all look the same.  But if anyone of you is not related to another in the line, take four steps forward."  Do you know how many would step forward?  Yup, twenty five.  This is the ultimate line breeding and the ultimate loss of breed genetic variability.  A lot of milk and cheese but all the cows are related to the same few bulls who were probably State Fair winners.  You know the drill.  Angus cattle are probably in a similar fix.

  Some inbreeding can be positive, some line cross breeding is positive.  Keep the line but keep the door open for linecross breeding.  Don't get painted into a corner.  If all the animals in the flock are closely related, inbreeding and inbreeding depression are fait accompli.  Unrelated rams are the key and I suggest keeping the concept of "effective population" in mind at breeding season.  A flock of one ram and 30 ewes is an effectiive populatiuon of 4.  A flock of 3 rams and 30 ewes is an effective population of 12.  Multiple rams are the key.  The inbreeding coefficient per generation for the 1 ram/30 ewe flock is aboiut 13%; in the second case it is a little over 4%.  Multiple rams, not ewes, is the key to genetic variation and reduced inbreeding.

  I recommend the ALBC book "Managing Breeds for a Secure Future" which has a lot of basics and how to info.

  Fred Horak
  St. Jude's Farm
  1165 E. Lucas Road
  Lucas, TX 75002
  972-727-0900
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From Jacobflock at aol.com  Sat Sep 26 01:00:04 2009
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 01:00:04 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] skulls and SUED
Message-ID: <d23.4d85f273.37eef9d4@aol.com>

I had to go to the garage to find two names; Larry Alderson and Betty  
Henson.  They did some studies on SUED that have been published in the ARK,  p. 
125-127 which covers SUED in several British breeds; Manx, Hebridean and  
Jacob.  Classification of the severity of SUED and incidence are  presented in 
tables with some statistical t tests.  
 
The gravity of the SUED defect in Jacobs in the US and Britian are graded  
differently but the defect seems to have a continuum.  The defect is  
relatively easy to detect by observing the eyelid but the orbit, the bony  
structure surrounding the eye is often claimed to be the source of the problem  
despite the intricasies of the complete eye structure; tissue, muscle and  
bone.  Even on a normal eye, the orbit may have a small notch (which can be  
felt by touch) through which the orbital nerves and blood vessels  pass. It 
seems that the notch is palpably larger with SUED at the graver  levels; but 
why?
 
The speculation on the cause remains confused: the bone or tissue  
arguments.  It is my sense that the speculation in the US is heavily on the  bone 
side. The linkage is the multiple horns cause the orbit to  split and 
therefore the eyelid is split.  The orbit roof is almost all  frontal bone; a small 
part of the roof is the sphenoid bone, part of the  sinus is also 
intersecting in the area of the orbit; vessels move through the  sinus and horns.  
Some present the cause as dependent on the location of  the lateral horns, 
others that it occurs with split fused horns.  The  linkage seems to explain the 
cause in terms of splits cause  splits. However, linkage may not be the 
cause.  The eyelid has little  connective tissue between the skin and muscle 
and to any underlying bone  structure.  Could it be that the problem we see, a 
 malformation of the upper tarsal muscle of the eyelid is not caused by but 
 another manifestation of a problem since the eyelid is not directly  
connected to the suprorbital fissure?
 
You might contact the polycerate breed associations in Scotland, England  
and Ireland and see if, as a group, they may be willing to collaborate on a  
project to identify the cause and move the ball down the field beyond a  
recessive defect for all polycerate breeds.  I would knock on a door at  
Glasgow University.
 
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Rd.
Lucas, TX 75002

972-727-0900
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/19/2009 5:42:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
westergladstone at btinternet.com writes:

Hi All
Skulls and SUED.  I know this is discussed every few  months - here in 
Britain it has come up again, this time on the Shetland  Breeders group.  You 
might not expect that, but every now and then four  horned individuals appear 
within the Shetland Breed and the incidence of SUED  in them is very high.
My question is:  has anyone over there in America,  where you are able to 
get your hands on your animals skulls, which we are not  here in Britain, 
seen any bony defect of the orbit in animals know to have had  split upper 
eyelids?
Of course everyone has their own ideas of the cause and  inheritance of 
four horns and SUED - here there are two main factions, one  saying that SUED 
is part of the split of the horns, extending down into the  bone of the 
orbit; the second opinion says that the defect is limited to the  soft tissues.  
I have seen skulls of four horned sheep known to have had  split eyelids, 
but with no bony defect and I have not seen one displaying a  defect, but my 
experience is very limited as we are not allowed to retrieve  skulls from the 
abattoir.
Your experiences would be very helpful - thank  you.
Juliet Johnston
Scotland  UK


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From patchworkfibers at windstream.net  Sat Sep 26 18:36:35 2009
From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:36:35 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Inbreed/Linecross/Breed genetic variability
In-Reply-To: <c5a.550f40af.37eeb921@aol.com>
References: <c5a.550f40af.37eeb921@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4ABE9773.3000403@windstream.net>

Could you share the formula for IC per generation on a flock basis? I 
can do individual IC (even without BA), but would like to know how to 
figure it for my flock. I think that would be a more telling figure than 
the IC on individuals as far as overall genetic diversity.
When you say 1 ram/30 ewe =13% as opposed to 3 rams/30 ewes = 4%, does 
that assume that the 3 rams are unrelated?

Linda

Jacobflock at aol.com wrote:
> I
>  
> Some inbreeding can be positive, some line cross breeding is 
> positive.  Keep the line but keep the door open for linecross 
> breeding.  Don't get painted into a corner.  If all the animals in the 
> flock are closely related, inbreeding and inbreeding depression are 
> fait accompli.  Unrelated rams are the key and I suggest keeping the 
> concept of "effective population" in mind at breeding season.  A flock 
> of one ram and 30 ewes is an effectiive populatiuon of 4.  A flock 
> of 3 rams and 30 ewes is an effective population of 12.  Multiple rams 
> are the key.  The inbreeding coefficient per generation for the 1 
> ram/30 ewe flock is aboiut 13%; in the second case it is a little over 
> 4%.  Multiple rams, not ewes, is the key to genetic variation and 
> reduced inbreeding.
>  

Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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From Jacobflock at aol.com  Sat Sep 26 20:32:18 2009
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 20:32:18 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] Congenital Problems in Jacobs
Message-ID: <c9a.380aed9e.37f00c92@aol.com>

A breed assocation will often compile congenital defects to monitor the  
health of the breed.  The following was voluntarily reported by Jacob  
breeders (breedeer and line were anonymous):  
 
adactyly, ataxia, atresia ani, brachygnathia, brachygnathia superior, cleft 
 palate, cranial/facial misalignment, crytorchordism, short ears, 
entropion,  gangliosidosis, hemimelia, infertility, intersex, occipital condylar 
dysplasia,  otognathia, polledness, scurs, split eyelid, wrytail,  urolithiasis
 
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Rd.
Lucas, TX 75002
072-727-0900
 
 
 
In a message dated 9/24/2009 5:00:10 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
ranchrat at telusplanet.net writes:

What other congenital problems have been  identified in the Jacob breed 

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From westergladstone at btinternet.com  Sun Sep 27 08:20:50 2009
From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (BlackSheep)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 13:20:50 +0100
Subject: [Jacob-list] skulls and SUED
References: <000001ca3d74$d7a22970$d611b8a1@RIVENDELL>
Message-ID: <068E8723FDFD4E33A98ACD37E624477B@Newbox>



Firstly, thanks to everyone who replied.    Betty B has very kindly offered to send me a copy of Ingrid Painter's book so I can see the skull picture for myself.   I will tackle all you wrote in a separate email Fred.  Gary Anderson has told me about Janine Fenton from Colorado, a founding member of JSBA, who had skulls from Jacobs with SUED, apparently with a bone defect - does anyone have a contact email for her please?

Tara, thank you for your detailed reply.  We have been lucky not to have had many severely split eyelids in our 4 horned sheep, in fact never in our pure Jacobs.  We sometimes get a Hebridean ram lamb with a split, occasionally severe.  We do not use or sell a ram with even the mildest degree of splitting.  We check every 4 horned lamb as soon as it is born and any males with SUED are castrated (with a rubber ring) within a few days of birth and are destined for the table.  The only exception to that was one which was so small and puny that we couldn't get the ring on within the legal 7 days (here in Britain), so he stayed entire until he went for slaughter.  None has ever been so severe as to cause distress, but we do take any we are concerned about (one so far !) to the vet - in that instance he felt there was no distress and the Jacob crossbred ewe went on to lamb twins with perfect eyes - before she dropped down dead after shearing, but her eyes were never a problem.  We have been very lucky I think, as we now only breed 4 horned animals.

We have taken lambs to the vet about their eyes - one year 3 lambs were born with a strange fleshy growth under the top lid, not a split.  I probably asked about it on this list at the time. We had used a borrowed ram and he left this problem. The vet removed the growths under local anaesthetic, but was surprised at how much blood came from then - some type of angioma I suppose.  Those lambs went the way of other imperfects in due course and we haven't seen that problem again.  The bill wasn't too bad !  Yes please Tara, I would love to see your wether's skull when he eventually dies.

The Scotland v England 4 horn v 2 horn thing you've got topsy-turvey.  In Scotland we prefer 4 horned Jacobs and there has been a resistance here to the trend towards 2 horned found in England.  In fact when we got our first Jacobs we were told to cull any 2 horned lambs.  We didn't because of course they can be sold in England, which isn't very far away.  We would get maybe one 2 horned lamb each year from between 5 and 8 breeding ewes, having triplets or twins.

The inflated and increasing size of British Jacobs is the reason that we no longer breed them and concentrate on Hebrideans which are a much more primitive native Scottish breed, small and neat. Have a look on www.hebrideansheep.org.uk  The huge size of British Jacobs is also the reason that Gordon and I stay on this list, where we can hear about Jacobs which maintain their primitive size and nature, tap into all your knowledge and look at all your lovely pictures !!

Juliet in Scotland



___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Heel low Juliet:

I've seen no reply to your post on the list, so here goes.

In Ingrid Painter's excellent book, "Jacob Sheep in America," page 29 shows a black and white photo of a four horn skull with a notched upper portion in the white skull's right side eye socket.  Caption reads, "Figure 24.  Skull showing deformity in the upper part of the eye socket."   

Here then is documented and published proof that you seek, "bony defect of the orbit in animals know to have had split upper eyelids."

Page 30 states, "These examples are the worst kind and often render the sheep blind in that eye.  These are heritable faults so the sheep should not be kept for breeding."

Here I have my own personal experiences to draw upon.  Yes, the sheep will probably become blind in the eye with type 4 SUED if nothing is done.  Dust would not be sweept out of the eye with a notch in the eyelid and I can only imagine the discomfort of that situation!!  I had a ram lamb, full birth brother to a six horn ewe (sire 2-horn, dam four-horn which I will address shortly) born as a four-horn.  Right from birth, you could see his top eye lids were notched in both eyes.  I felt he was a type four tho Ingrid's type four was more extreme than his.  I left him intact until he was six months old.my vet well warned and prepared.took him in for surgery (sedation is NOT received well by ruminants.it was risking his life as my vet advised me, we could have lost him on the table or from not coming out of sedation).  Long story short, he is a full and active "it" here, providing me with one of the MOST lovely fleeces (he was soft as a pillow to start and sans the testosterone now.still very nice).  No, I did not use him to breed and I often wondered "what if" but was chicken to try.  How many more $300 bills is my husband and I suppose to shrug off as legitimate expenses raising Jacobs.most would have bought mint sauce and prepared the ram lamb accordingly.I have never heard of any other soul, having eye surgery performed on a Jacob to correct SUED.speak up if you have, I'd be delighted to hear of shared insanity.

When this Jacob finally passes, I will make sure and render his skull and send you a photo of his skull pending you do not change addys.  I unfortunately do not have pictures of his type 4 eyelids, didn't have a digital back then.I took pics and when I developed the film, it was all fuzzy!!  Sigh.

I have been told that in Scotland, and Juliet, you can answer me privately or here on the list as to whether I have heard correctly, but in Scotland they took to breeding for two horn Jacobs, in the hopes to avoid split eye deformities all together.  I am also advised that even two horned sheep express split eye deformities.  I think someone on the list mentioned examples seen of two horn sheep that had this???

Now regarding people's preferences not to use two-horns here in North America.thinking 2-horns only throw the same when they want all four horns or more.  This two horn, he was from four-horn  parents and the four horn dam, was also from 4-horn parents as well.with this lineage, there was no issue and a two horn sire produced a four horn ram and a six horn ewe.the splitting of the horn core, obviously was a little extreme in the male's side.  He is considerably less big than intact rams of the same age, but his dam is not huge, so I cannot concur that altering him has made him smaller than he should be as an adult.his horn growth is reduced and matches his body size.  I have heard that horn growth becomes retarded when you alter a male horned sheep.

Hope this helps you.

Doggone,

Tara
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From ACAMDA at aol.com  Sun Sep 27 09:08:27 2009
From: ACAMDA at aol.com (ACAMDA at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 09:08:27 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] change of e-mail address
Message-ID: <cf2.626bae47.37f0bdcb@aol.com>

Please change my e-mail address from: _acamda at aol.com_ 
(mailto:acamda at aol.com) 
 
to: _Katherine1958 at gmail.com_ (mailto:Katherine1958 at gmail.com) 
 
Thank you!
 
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From westergladstone at btinternet.com  Sun Sep 27 10:10:46 2009
From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (BlackSheep)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 15:10:46 +0100
Subject: [Jacob-list] skulls and SUED
References: <d23.4d85f273.37eef9d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <EB0CAF26EB104BB680BD87A630FB3FD0@Newbox>

Fred, thank you so much for your reply and the efforts you have made for me. 

To tackle the last bit first: 
<<You might contact the polycerate breed associations in Scotland, England and Ireland and see if, as a group, they may be willing to collaborate on a project to identify the cause and move the ball down the field beyond a recessive defect for all polycerate breeds.  I would knock on a door at Glasgow University.>>
Gordon and I are part of a group which is doing just that !  Gordon is the Vice Chair of the Hebridean Sheep Society, which has begun to look at the inheritance of 4 hornedness and SUED, with an ultimate goal of being able to supply breeding advice to polycerate breeders.  The Manx Group and some Jacob breeders are also on board, as are Lawrence Alderson and Libby Henson - Britain is a small place !!
So, it is because of my involvement in this research that I have approached the Jacob list to see what evidence you might have in North America.  As I mentioned in my first email, here in Britain we have very strict controls on the disposal of spinal and brain tissue - it was even for a while impossible for us to get back our sheeps horns from the abattoir, although there was such a huge protest at that that we can get them now. But it does mean that we cannot get skulls.  
We have approached various universities but funding is an insurmountable problem there.  We had hoped that a PhD student could make this their project - two difficulties there, again funding, but also that a PhD doesn't carry the research any further, as was the case with Libby Henson's work - she came up with some possible causes and associations at the end of her paper, and of course stated that further research is needed to continue to address the issues, but there it has stood for years now.  Libby works for the Rare Breeds Survival Trust in Britain, but is not in a position to do further research in spite of her continuing interest. We do have a final year vet undergrad in the group and perhaps she will stay on for a PhD..........
The Hebridean Sheep Society is very small and poor, and multi horns currently make up only about 6% of the Hebridean national flock (it was 60% in the 1970s), so we would be totally unable to begin to fund research ourselves.  As well as physical findings, we would like to see the questions about polycerates and SUED studied at a genetic level.  I understand from Gary Anderson's email to me that Janine Fenton was hoping to interest a university in Colorado in these questions, so I would love to be able to correspond with her.  Although if she had been successful it is likely that we would all have heard about it.

You mention that in the US you grade the eye defect differently.  Here we have: type 1 - normal eye, type 2 - break in the pigment line (ie a brief change of colour from dark to light and back) and fine for breeding males and females (I have reservations about even mentioning this almost invisible difference), type 3 - a small break in the eyelid, shaped like a small notch, and 4 - type 4 which is a severe split expending into the body of the eyelid, and can sometimes be so severe that it shows as a scar on the cornea.  It is recommended that males with types 3 and 4 should not be used for breeding and that females with type 4 should be carefully assessed and only used in the breeders flock if they have other traits which are important, but should not be sold on (this is for Hebrideans - I think the JSS says neither sex should be used for breeding with a type 3 or 4 defect - the difference is that there are plenty of 4 horned Jacobs to choose from, but 4 horned Hebrideans are very rare so we cannot be too strictly selective at this early stage).

Fred, your comments about the bony structure of the sheeps skull are of great interest to me.  I am currently trying to find a skull to take a closer look at, so I can see what is normal - quite important before trying to decide what is abnormal !  As soon as we get our tup lambs in again, Gordon and I will try palpating the orbits of the normal and one abnormal ones we have.  I feel that until we have a number of such skulls to compare, normal with those from animals with SUED, we can only speculate.

Thank you again for your reply.

Juliet in Scotland
ps as Gordon wrote privately to you, Marshall Watson is still on the go.  He no longer keeps Jacobs, Soay or Hebrideans, just Shetlands, but is in contact with the group we have started, sharing his opinions with us, and is a friend - he lives only 11 miles away and we bought our first ever Hebridean tup from him.  Small country again !

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I had to go to the garage to find two names; Larry Alderson and Betty Henson.  They did some studies on SUED that have been published in the ARK, p. 125-127 which covers SUED in several British breeds; Manx, Hebridean and Jacob.  Classification of the severity of SUED and incidence are presented in tables with some statistical t tests.  

The gravity of the SUED defect in Jacobs in the US and Britian are graded differently but the defect seems to have a continuum.  The defect is relatively easy to detect by observing the eyelid but the orbit, the bony structure surrounding the eye is often claimed to be the source of the problem despite the intricasies of the complete eye structure; tissue, muscle and bone.  Even on a normal eye, the orbit may have a small notch (which can be felt by touch) through which the orbital nerves and blood vessels pass. It seems that the notch is palpably larger with SUED at the graver levels; but why?

The speculation on the cause remains confused: the bone or tissue arguments.  It is my sense that the speculation in the US is heavily on the bone side. The linkage is the multiple horns cause the orbit to split and therefore the eyelid is split.  The orbit roof is almost all frontal bone; a small part of the roof is the sphenoid bone, part of the sinus is also intersecting in the area of the orbit; vessels move through the sinus and horns.  Some present the cause as dependent on the location of the lateral horns, others that it occurs with split fused horns.  The linkage seems to explain the cause in terms of splits cause splits. However, linkage may not be the cause.  The eyelid has little connective tissue between the skin and muscle and to any underlying bone structure.  Could it be that the problem we see, a malformation of the upper tarsal muscle of the eyelid is not caused by but another manifestation of a problem since the eyelid is not directly connected to the suprorbital fissure?

You might contact the polycerate breed associations in Scotland, England and Ireland and see if, as a group, they may be willing to collaborate on a project to identify the cause and move the ball down the field beyond a recessive defect for all polycerate breeds.  I would knock on a door at Glasgow University.

Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Rd.
Lucas, TX 75002
972-727-0900
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From Jacobflock at aol.com  Sun Sep 27 23:52:34 2009
From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2009 23:52:34 EDT
Subject: [Jacob-list] skulls and SUED
Message-ID: <c88.50e1f480.37f18d02@aol.com>

With the RBST and so many breed groups willing to pursue the  issue that 
imperils the Park sheep that were the subject of Elwes work  in 1913, I would 
see if the Royal Agriculture Society of England would add some  muscle on 
behalf of the RBST, add in a call to Charles Bassett at the ALBC here  in the 
States and see if the case can be made to put it on the agenda of  Dr. 
Montgomery, the worlds leading geneticist on horns and the sheep genome ...  he 
may still be at Otago University in New Zealand.  
 
He did the work to find the horn gene on OV0010 and did some work on the  
hornless gene and polled gene.  He just might yield under the weight of a  
number of breed conservationists and their prestige and be personally 
concerned  about the loss of multiple breed genetics to resurrect his work on 
chromosome  10 for polycerates, what gene is there, how it operates and  perhaps 
how close the ovine eyelid gene is to the polycerate horn  gene ...  And 
there is a human element: locations of human genes  that cause human eyelid 
maladies.  There are connections yet to be  found.
 
In search of funding to support such a project, look to donations from  
breed associations, agriculture department, county and local people that have  
any connection to sheep/wool/  city or county.  Some research that we  are 
directly involved in is being funded by the National Institute of Health,  
several hospitals and universities and even a twelve year old boy who has  
collected over US$7,500.  Funding, even in a bad economy can be  found.
 
Fred Horak
St. Jude's Farm
1165 E. Lucas Rd.
Lucas, TX 75002
972-727-0900
 
 
In a message dated 9/27/2009 9:11:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
westergladstone at btinternet.com writes:

As well as physical findings, we would like to see the questions  about 
polycerates and SUED studied at a genetic level.  I understand from  Gary 
Anderson's email to me that Janine Fenton was hoping to interest a  university in 
Colorado in these questions, so I would love to be able to  correspond with 
her.  Although if she had been successful it is likely  that we would all 
have heard about it.
 


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From shmee1 at mail.com  Mon Sep 28 13:35:26 2009
From: shmee1 at mail.com (Leigh Nelson)
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 12:35:26 -0500
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
Message-ID: <20090928173526.D16D9BE4082@ws1-9.us4.outblaze.com>

This posting subject has been very interesting to hear everyones'
different perspectives, especially the observations made on twins where
only one is bred in the first year.?For what it's worth here is my
experience!? I got my first ten?Jacobs in October 06, prior to that I had
never had any livestock.? Since I was new to everything I decided to only
breed the old experienced girls to my one ram, the remaining four ewe
lambs were put in a second adjacent pen.? Breeding began in November (we
live in a cold climate and frequently still have snow until the end of
April).? Once the ram had "taken care" of the experienced girls he then
began trying to get at the un-bred yearlings.? ?As mentioned before, this
was our first year breeding and we didn't quite know what to expect.? Our
first mistake was to only have a single piece of page wire fencing to
separate the two pens.? The ram spent the best part of the winter ruining
our fence.? We didn't have any other pens to house the ram, nor could we
build any new pens at -40.? So we tried putting blankets on the fence to
obstruct his view.? By Jan/Feb the ram wasn't as focused on the yearlings
and we?figured?breeding season was complete.? ?In March we removed the
ram from the bred female pen because we were concerned about him hurting
the mothers/lambs.? Having no other pen we put him in with those four
yearlings, figuring breeding season was way over....our second mistake.?
In August, three of the four yearlings each?had a lamb unassisted.? The
first of those ones born was found in?the barn in the morning, all
cleaned off, first meal complete, and taking a nap.? The rest proceeded
in the same way.? Since it was August we didn't have to worry as much
about hypothermia, the lambs never got a big as those born in April but
did start eating from the pasture much quicker.?In our second year we
decided to make our lives easier and breed the yearlings but wait an
additional three weeks from the main group.? This would give the
yearlings more time to grow and ensure warmer weather when they lambed.?
We had four yearlings lamb that year, no problems with any of them during
labour.? Some of the yearlings sometimes forgot about their lambs when
going out to the pasture or when grain was being dolled out but other
than that it was fine.? Last year we did the same thing, and had two
yearlings that did not want to let their lambs nurse...after a bit of
human intervention everything was fine.? This year I also plan on
breeding my yearlings with the same schedule.? In the future when I have
reached my ideal flock size I might not breed yearlings but so far it has
worked out for us.?Hope that helps with your decision,Leigh NelsonBent
Willow Farmwww.bentwillowfarm.ca?

-- 
An Excellent Credit Score is 750 
See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps!

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From gbanderson at ucdavis.edu  Tue Sep 29 13:47:15 2009
From: gbanderson at ucdavis.edu (Gary Anderson)
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:47:15 -0400
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding ewe lambs
In-Reply-To: <mailman.157.1253832612.66727.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
References: <mailman.157.1253832612.66727.jacob-list@jacobsheep.com>
Message-ID: <0B1EF18E294A4BE59BCDC9FEA88C53FD@GBAndersonLT1>

I looked for (not very hard) results from controlled studies on growth
characteristics of ewes bred to lamb as yearlings versus as 2-year-olds.  I
did not find what I was after but think I can summarize conclusions from
these studies:  generally, effects on growth during pregnancy and lactation
of ewes that lamb as yearlings are temporary with most or all differences
between the early lambers and ewes that lamb first as 2-year-olds
disappearing by 2 years of age.  These experiments were not conducted with
Jacob ewes, but I believe it is reasonable to extrapolate the results to
Jacobs.

We expose our ewe lambs to rams during a roughly 5-week breeding season;
some lamb as yearlings and some do not.  This year, five of seven lambed.
The five that lambed did so at 12 months of age.  Our observations are in
line with those reported by others on the list: some new yearling mothers
take a bit of time to figure out what just happened and what they're
supposed to do, and lactation in a few yearling mothers results in poor milk
production.  Some of the lambs born to yearlings seem to be smaller at birth
and weaning than lambs born to adults.  In our experience lambs born to
yearlings usually are ready for breeding the following fall.  Smaller birth
weights seem helpful to reduce lambing problems in yearlings.  In our
experience, most yearlings lamb and lactate with no problems, producing
acceptable lambs for sale or adding to our flock.  Again in our experience,
yearlings typically produce single lambs.

Anecdotally, one of the five yearlings that lambed this year was an under-
grown triplet from the previous year, the triplet that got pushed out by her
larger two brothers.  I expected her not to cycle last fall and, not wanting
to separate her from the rest of the flock, let her run with a group of ewe
lambs with a ram lamb.  To my surprise, she was bred (based on use of a
marking harness on the ram) toward to the end of our breeding season.  When
I removed the rams, I gave prostaglandin to the triplet ewe lamb to
interrupt the pregnancy (at about 14 days).  When we sheared in March, I
noticed that her mammary gland was developing.  She delivered a scrawny ewe
lamb and, though she mothered it well, needed some assistance for a few
weeks from a daily bottle to supplement nutrition to her lamb.  After
weaning her lamb, the yearling grew nicely into a tall, rangy ewe in time
for this year's breeding season (which will begin the first of November).
Her ewe lamb still is scrawny and definitely not ready for breeding this
year.  In this instance, I judged that the ewe lamb should not be bred to
lamb as a yearling, but my efforts to prevent it were insufficient and
unsuccessful.  I guess the bottom line is 'some ewe lambs are appropriate
for breeding and lambing as yearlings and some not'.  Good judgment of the
shepherd is important.

A further anecdote: I was surprised to see how few of the yearling ewes
shown at this year's AGM appeared to have lambed, based on their appearance
whether or not they were lactating.  As several contributors have mentioned,
a breeder's decision not to breed ewe lambs might be based on not wanting to
produce more lambs than appropriate for his/her market.  Since yearling
lambers might require a bit more care than adults, the yearlings are good
candidates not to be bred.

-----Original Message-----
From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com
[mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of
jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2009 6:50 PM
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 25

Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to
	jacob-list at jacobsheep.com

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Mountain state fair sheep show (Linda)
   2. Breeding Ewe Lambs (Laura C Frazier)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:27:03 -0400
From: Linda <patchworkfibers at windstream.net>
Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Mountain state fair sheep show
To: hobbyknobfarm <hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us>
Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Message-ID: <4ABBF237.30303 at windstream.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

Thanks for sharing and congrats to Elke!

Linda

hobbyknobfarm wrote:
> We just had our wool sheep show here in Asheville. Elke brought 3 
> lambs, one of which was a very nice Jacob ewe lamb from her ewe and my 
> ram Andy (well, Andy actually was a result of a purchase of a bred ewe 
> from Cheryl 3 years ago, but he was born here) Anyway, that little ewe 
> lamb was 1st place in fine wool (we have no Jacob class at our fair) 
> and Grand Champion fleece in fine wool - she is a very nice ewe lamb, 
> and is for sale by the way, and the judge is a fleece/spinner/breeder 
> so she really looks at fleeces when she judges. I had to toot Elke's 
> horn as she is not on this list. You too can show some Jacob's at SAFF 
> here in October. I imagine this little lamb will be there then along 
> with my one ewe lamb and maybe a yearling if I have the energy to get 
> her used to the halter again.
> Elizabeth
> www.hobbyknobfarm.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks
> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
>   

-- 
Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep <http://www.patchworkfibers.com>
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Message: 2
Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 18:41:06 -0400
From: Laura C Frazier <farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com>
Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Ewe Lambs
To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
Message-ID: <E3F123E2-6C1C-4D84-8D41-297C88525D42 at triad.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed";
	DelSp="yes"

I'm soliciting folks' opinions about and experiences with breeding  
ewe lambs that are 6 or more months old.

This list is SO helpful. Thanks everyone!!
Laura

Laura C Frazier
FarmGirl Arts
(336) 971-3834
Kernersville, NC
http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts



On Sep 24, 2009, at 5:59 PM, jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com wrote:

> Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to
> 	jacob-list at jacobsheep.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Mountain state fair sheep show (hobbyknobfarm)
>    2. Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada?? (ranchrat)
>    3. Congenital Problems in Jacobs (ranchrat)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 12:32:39 -0400
> From: "hobbyknobfarm" <hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us>
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Mountain state fair sheep show
> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Message-ID: <8CBC213BC3FD46DBAFD759AEFDECDC9F at daron1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> We just had our wool sheep show here in Asheville. Elke brought 3  
> lambs, one of which was a very nice Jacob ewe lamb from her ewe and  
> my ram Andy (well, Andy actually was a result of a purchase of a  
> bred ewe from Cheryl 3 years ago, but he was born here) Anyway,  
> that little ewe lamb was 1st place in fine wool (we have no Jacob  
> class at our fair) and Grand Champion fleece in fine wool - she is  
> a very nice ewe lamb, and is for sale by the way, and the judge is  
> a fleece/spinner/breeder so she really looks at fleeces when she  
> judges. I had to toot Elke's horn as she is not on this list. You  
> too can show some Jacob's at SAFF here in October. I imagine this  
> little lamb will be there then along with my one ewe lamb and maybe  
> a yearling if I have the energy to get her used to the halter again.
> Elizabeth
> www.hobbyknobfarm.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:21:55 -0600
> From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net>
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Owners - Alberta & Canada??
> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Message-ID: <000501ca3d54$a992d540$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> A question posed to the list.how many Canadians are left possessing
> Jacobs?  Here in Alberta, I can list many who no longer have  
> Jacobs, the
> stats are very scary and I suppose I should go on the Canadian  
> Livestock
> Records registry database and see if any of these former owned Jacobs
> are listed there under different ownership now.  I have heard many
> threaten to "get out of Jacobs" through some means such as making
> pepperoni out of their flock unless a valid owner steps forward  
> soon to
> buy their Jacobs.  No worries, ALL livestock is facing the same  
> fate.not
> picking on Jacobs solely by any means.  Even on this List there has  
> been
> downsizing and flock sales..sigh!
>
> In just the past few years, Alberta Jacob breeders gone now are: Lisa,
> Leonard, Judy (too old I believe now), Tyler, Bonnie, Pamela (may have
> taken some up North); there are probably more that even this I did not
> become acquainted with.the Can Rare Breeds flock is gone, dispersed.I
> believe there is only myself and Linda/Dan now left in Alberta and
> that's unsettling.  There are many livestock owners literally  
> "dumping"
> livestock at auctions all over the Prairies.if they had troubles with
> producing their own feed, they sure would have it now trying to buy  
> it.
> We, fortunately, put by all our alfalfa in June and even purchased all
> our livestock rations and grains at lower per bag prices than even  
> last
> year's.  We're good for just over two years now.but even we are
> concerned about future costs to keep on what we have.  Not to do this
> would be living under a rock.  Hauling in the oat straw bedding this
> weekend and there, same price as in year's past.we locked in beginning
> of this spring with our order.
>
> One or two Jacob sheepers don't a happy "flock" make!
>
> Tara Lee Higgins - Rat Ranch, Alberta
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 14:22:05 -0600
> From: "ranchrat" <ranchrat at telusplanet.net>
> Subject: [Jacob-list] Congenital Problems in Jacobs
> To: <jacob-list at jacobsheep.com>
> Message-ID: <000a01ca3d54$b0ebefc0$7814b8a1 at RIVENDELL>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Heel low:
>
> <Jacobflock at aol.com> Fred Horak wrote:
>
> 3. The "standardization" of the Jacob in North America can be laid to
> the
> small gene pool, often referred to as a genetic bottleneck and flock
> structure (few rams).  The study by the USDA-NGP (2/04) covered over
> 2,000 births
> and indicated the rapidly increasing percent of inbred  animals from
> 1983
> to 1994 and a more positive trend of reduced  inbreeding from 1995 to
> 2002.
> The 1983-1994 period was a period that  contributed greatly to  
> "fixing"
> the
> Jacob=American traits but  also marked a period of a relatively high
> incidence of congenital  problems in the breed.
>
> I have a 2003 Jacob ewe from what I consider are VERY inbred lines and
> she is stone cold deaf.  Manages quite well in the flock, but is a
> little "off" due to her condition.  Needless to say, I've never  
> allowed
> her to have progeny.
>
> Would you consider the deafness to be directly linked to her  
> inbreeding?
> I have no real background in how ovines inherit deafness, tho I do  
> have
> a lot of experience in the canine incident of deafness (BAER testing
> generations and differing levels of decibles along with the proven
> "white hair" incident of deafness).
>
> What other congenital problems have been identified in the Jacob breed
> regarding issues limiting genetic diversity (setting breed type by
> inbreeding).
>
> Doggone,
>
> Tara
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>
> End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 62, Issue 24
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