From gothorses at gotsky.com Sun Nov 1 14:37:16 2009 From: gothorses at gotsky.com (Miranda Tanis) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 19:37:16 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Message-ID: <50291.75.107.255.161.1257104236.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> Will a ewe that lambs in the night, and has twins, will she care for both, or should I keep an eye on her, she has had a lamb before. M.T From hobsickle at aol.com Sun Nov 1 14:48:01 2009 From: hobsickle at aol.com (hobsickle at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2009 19:48:01 +0000 Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Message-ID: <262663657-1257104936-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1981336135-@bda777.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Depends on the ewe, but usually they will mother both lambs. It never hurts to be watchful, though! -Dan ------Original Message------ From: Miranda Tanis Sender: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ReplyTo: gothorses at gotsky.com Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Sent: Nov 1, 2009 2:37 PM Will a ewe that lambs in the night, and has twins, will she care for both, or should I keep an eye on her, she has had a lamb before. M.T _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with Nextel Direct Connect From gotothewhip at aol.com Tue Nov 3 12:40:50 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:40:50 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Other Fibers Message-ID: <8CC2AC3EB706E43-502C-1BB2@webmail-d079.sysops.aol.com> Hello all, I did not know if maybe you all can point me in the right direction.... As most of you know, I am a County Extension Agent and as one of Colorado's "Fiber Specialists" with CSU, I have been asked (on short notice) to present a topic at the Colorado County Ag Agents Assn meeting this month. I was set to present on Wool and Wool fiber selection, but they just asked if I could include some of the uncommon animal fibers, so I am asking for help.. Of course I have searched and googled the web, but I would really like some input on Yak, Cashmere, Angora (goat & Rabbit) as well as any other animal fiber info you all could point me in the direction of. Im pretty compitent when it comes to wool, both Handspinning and Commercial, However, I am having to reach beyond my comfort level. I am looking for just little tidbits to help the other agents deal with fiber folks, and concerns they have. I have done a good bit of resaerch on the fibers themselves, but I would like to either via Email or phone conversation, speak with folks who are into these types of fiber animals. Can anyone Help? Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com Tue Nov 3 21:41:44 2009 From: farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com (Laura C Frazier) Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2009 21:41:44 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? Message-ID: <5E1A3FA9-6C87-4352-A23E-BCD4AC71D547@triad.rr.com> I'd like to have some clarification about the characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? Thanks! Laura Laura C Frazier FarmGirl Arts (336) 971-3834 Kernersville, NC http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nlgrose at yadtel.net Wed Nov 4 06:42:50 2009 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 06:42:50 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? References: <5E1A3FA9-6C87-4352-A23E-BCD4AC71D547@triad.rr.com> Message-ID: <114677183A3F4300B3F38185DAC89F8A@HAL2> I don't think color should figure in on this. Color is more a factor of blood- lines and chance. We tend to think of primitive as being defined by smaller animals, but we need to be careful about that. Breeding for small-ness is just as bad as breeding for big-ness. Resistance to parasitosis is often cited as primitive, and this is a very good attribute; but, Soay sheep, which are primitive by definition, have little resistance because they were not developed in an area that subjected them to large parasite loads. I look at body style and conformation. The hallmark of domestic livestock improvement is the selection for extended loin area and larger hams. This is accomplished by breeding for a round, course bone and a less flexible broad ligament (the ligament that overlays the pelvis). Large hips increase the area that produce the more expensive cuts of meat, but also dramatically increase the incidence of birthing problems since this is the widest area that must pass through the birth canal.. This birth problem is multiplied by the less flexible broad ligament, which prevents the pelvis from separating during the passage of the fetus. Primitive sheep and cows have relatively narrow and sloping rumps, and flatter bone. Even the "improved" lines of Jacobs Sheep that are often criticized have relatively narrow rumps and strong front ends (think of them as linebackers with no necks narrow hips). Mostly, we just think that we know it when we see it. Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura C Frazier To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? I'd like to have some clarification about the characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? Thanks! Laura Laura C Frazier FarmGirl Arts (336) 971-3834 Kernersville, NC http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com Wed Nov 4 10:28:37 2009 From: farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com (Laura C Frazier) Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 10:28:37 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? In-Reply-To: <114677183A3F4300B3F38185DAC89F8A@HAL2> References: <5E1A3FA9-6C87-4352-A23E-BCD4AC71D547@triad.rr.com> <114677183A3F4300B3F38185DAC89F8A@HAL2> Message-ID: Neal, Thanks so much for the details concerning the rump and birthing, etc. My father-in-law raises commercial Suffolk crosses and all that you say about breeding for the broad rump, large hips is SO true! That's exactly what he talks about in the breeding program. Add to that the practice of docking up into the rump and you have a huge recipe for anal and vaginal prolapse and birthing problems. He does this mostly for his grandkids who compete in two market lamb shows a year. He's very competitive with other breeders for those top honors. We sell lamb too and so that is part of the breeding program. It's so hard to believe that we humans actually breed in painful hardships just for shows and cuts of meat, then add in bad practices like surgical docking into the spine. Love the "We all know it when we see it." ;-) Laura C Frazier FarmGirl Arts (336) 971-3834 Kernersville, NC http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts On Nov 4, 2009, at 6:42 AM, Neal and Louise Grose wrote: > I don't think color should figure in on this. Color is more a > factor of blood- lines and chance. > > We tend to think of primitive as being defined by smaller animals, > but we need to be careful about that. Breeding for small-ness is > just as bad as breeding for big-ness. > > Resistance to parasitosis is often cited as primitive, and this is > a very good attribute; but, Soay sheep, which are primitive by > definition, have little resistance because they were not developed > in an area that subjected them to large parasite loads. > > I look at body style and conformation. The hallmark of domestic > livestock improvement is the selection for extended loin area and > larger hams. This is accomplished by breeding for a round, course > bone and a less flexible broad ligament (the ligament that overlays > the pelvis). Large hips increase the area that produce the more > expensive cuts of meat, but also dramatically increase the > incidence of birthing problems since this is the widest area that > must pass through the birth canal.. This birth problem is > multiplied by the less flexible broad ligament, which prevents the > pelvis from separating during the passage of the fetus. Primitive > sheep and cows have relatively narrow and sloping rumps, and > flatter bone. Even the "improved" lines of Jacobs Sheep that are > often criticized have relatively narrow rumps and strong front ends > (think of them as linebackers with no necks narrow hips). > > Mostly, we just think that we know it when we see it. > > Neal Grose > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Laura C Frazier > To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM > Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? > > I'd like to have some clarification about the characteristics/ > traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've heard/read of some > individuals being referred to as "primitive", including my ram, and > I'd just like to better understand this. Less black? Finer bones? > Smaller in stature? > > Thanks! > Laura > > Laura C Frazier > FarmGirl Arts > (336) 971-3834 > Kernersville, NC > http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Thu Nov 5 18:51:16 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:51:16 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? In-Reply-To: <114677183A3F4300B3F38185DAC89F8A@HAL2> References: <5E1A3FA9-6C87-4352-A23E-BCD4AC71D547@triad.rr.com> <114677183A3F4300B3F38185DAC89F8A@HAL2> Message-ID: <4AF364F4.50108@windstream.net> Small-ness, in itself, does not scream primitive to me, even though many of the more primitive Jacobs are smaller. One thing (for me, anyway) besides hip and bone, that helps to define primitive is the head. A big square clunky head with a broad forehead just isn't what I call primitive. A slender, triangular head that is decidedly male or female (as the case may be)without being blocky is (again, for me)is a trait of a primitive Jacob. Behavior and adaptation are hard to judge to judge with a glance. I hope that we are still raising hardy and adaptable sheep. It's interesting to check out images on the internet of commercial breeds for comparison and images of deer to define "deer-like". Linda Neal and Louise Grose wrote: > I don't think color should figure in on this. Color is more a factor > of blood- lines and chance. > > We tend to think of primitive as being defined by smaller animals, but > we need to be careful about that. Breeding for small-ness is just as > bad as breeding for big-ness. > > Resistance to parasitosis is often cited as primitive, and this is a > very good attribute; but, Soay sheep, which are primitive by > definition, have little resistance because they were not developed in > an area that subjected them to large parasite loads. > > I look at body style and conformation. The hallmark of domestic > livestock improvement is the selection for extended loin area and > larger hams. This is accomplished by breeding for a round, course bone > and a less flexible broad ligament (the ligament that overlays the > pelvis). Large hips increase the area that produce the more expensive > cuts of meat, but also dramatically increase the incidence of birthing > problems since this is the widest area that must pass through the > birth canal.. This birth problem is multiplied by the less flexible > broad ligament, which prevents the pelvis from separating during the > passage of the fetus. Primitive sheep and cows have relatively narrow > and sloping rumps, and flatter bone. Even the "improved" lines of > Jacobs Sheep that are often criticized have relatively narrow rumps > and strong front ends (think of them as linebackers with no > necks narrow hips). > > Mostly, we just think that we know it when we see it. > > Neal Grose > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Laura C Frazier > *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM > *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive? > > I'd like to have some clarification about the > characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've > heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", > including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. > Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? > > Thanks! > Laura > > Laura C Frazier > FarmGirl Arts > (336) 971-3834 > Kernersville, NC > http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Thu Nov 5 19:36:10 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:36:10 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? In-Reply-To: <4AF364F4.50108@windstream.net> References: <5E1A3FA9-6C87-4352-A23E-BCD4AC71D547@triad.rr.com> <114677183A3F4300B3F38185DAC89F8A@HAL2> <4AF364F4.50108@windstream.net> Message-ID: <4AF36F7A.3050204@windstream.net> Please excuse my typos - very long night and very early morning. Linda wrote: > Small-ness, in itself, does not scream primitive to me, even though > many of the more primitive Jacobs are smaller. > One thing (for me, anyway) besides hip and bone, that helps to define > primitive is the head. A big square clunky head with a broad forehead > just isn't what I call primitive. A slender, triangular head that is > decidedly male or female (as the case may be)without being blocky is > (again, for me)*is* a trait of a primitive Jacob. > Behavior and adaptation are hard to judge *to judge* with a glance. I > hope that we are still raising hardy and adaptable sheep. > It's interesting to check out images on the internet of commercial > breeds for comparison and images of deer to define "deer-like". > > Linda > > > Neal and Louise Grose wrote: >> I don't think color should figure in on this. Color is more a factor >> of blood- lines and chance. >> >> We tend to think of primitive as being defined by smaller animals, >> but we need to be careful about that. Breeding for small-ness is just >> as bad as breeding for big-ness. >> >> Resistance to parasitosis is often cited as primitive, and this is a >> very good attribute; but, Soay sheep, which are primitive by >> definition, have little resistance because they were not developed in >> an area that subjected them to large parasite loads. >> >> I look at body style and conformation. The hallmark of domestic >> livestock improvement is the selection for extended loin area and >> larger hams. This is accomplished by breeding for a round, >> course bone and a less flexible broad ligament (the ligament that >> overlays the pelvis). Large hips increase the area that produce the >> more expensive cuts of meat, but also dramatically increase the >> incidence of birthing problems since this is the widest area that >> must pass through the birth canal.. This birth problem is multiplied >> by the less flexible broad ligament, which prevents the pelvis from >> separating during the passage of the fetus. Primitive sheep and cows >> have relatively narrow and sloping rumps, and flatter bone. Even the >> "improved" lines of Jacobs Sheep that are often criticized have >> relatively narrow rumps and strong front ends (think of them as >> linebackers with no necks narrow hips). >> >> Mostly, we just think that we know it when we see it. >> >> Neal Grose >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Laura C Frazier >> *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM >> *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive? >> >> I'd like to have some clarification about the >> characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've >> heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", >> including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. >> Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? >> >> Thanks! >> Laura >> >> Laura C Frazier >> FarmGirl Arts >> (336) 971-3834 >> Kernersville, NC >> http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jacobflock at aol.com Fri Nov 6 14:45:14 2009 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 14:45:14 EST Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? Message-ID: The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed that is relatively unimproved. When "primitive" is used to describe the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular sheep but to a breed's performance. My frame of referemce for this term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by John Elwes. (The book is only a little longer than the title) He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced Highland, Siberian and Orkney. The name Jacob given by Earl Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes.. Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..." Elwes will keep his sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to maturity, all requiring little management. If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier. Some of these improved types might be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock). Some might argue the primitive type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded Hescock's flock by several years. A comparison of the appearance of these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the difference between primitive and improved. However, primitive, as first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size or performance difference. Fred Horak ----- Original Message ----- From: _Laura C Frazier_ (mailto:farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com) To: _jacob-list at jacobsheep.com_ (mailto:jacob-list at jacobsheep.com) Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? I'd like to have some clarification about the characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? Thanks! Laura Laura C Frazier FarmGirl Arts (336) 971-3834 Kernersville, NC _http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts_ (http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Fri Nov 6 18:23:15 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Fri, 06 Nov 2009 18:23:15 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs in the news Message-ID: <4AF4AFE3.8010005@windstream.net> This showed up on my google alerts. Nice work, Kay! http://www.kearneyhub.com/entertainment/local/article_f410377e-ca36-11de-83b6-001cc4c03286.html -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep From psisk at hughes.net Fri Nov 6 19:26:34 2009 From: psisk at hughes.net (Paul Sisk) Date: Fri, 6 Nov 2009 19:26:34 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Intro and horns question Message-ID: Hi all I just joined the list. My name is Paul Sisk and I live in Florida. I think I am the southern most breeder of Jacobs. I just purchased a small flock. My question is, today when I was worming them all before being let loose in the quarintine lot I hulled off a very use to be lovely horn on a ewe. She is about nine years old and had really nice four horns. Will the horn grow back and is this common. The root is still on the side of her head. It bled profusely but I got it to clot with some spider web. It was this morning and she seems fine otherwise. Thanks Paul Sisk From psisk at hughes.net Sat Nov 7 18:42:43 2009 From: psisk at hughes.net (Paul Sisk) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:42:43 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Intro and horns question In-Reply-To: <4AF5FF6C.3080709@windstream.net> Message-ID: I hope you'll join JSBA and register your sheep, if they aren't registered already. Enjoy your flock! Linda I am mailing my membership in Monday. I intend to register all of the four horn ewes and the ram, who is also four horned and nearly perfect except for what he has broken off the tips. I got them from Lucinda Richardson in Camilla. I got eight ewes and one ram. Six of the ewes are four horned and very nice horns. I will still be looking for a young ram in the spring though. Thanks to all who answered Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shmee1 at mail.com Sat Nov 7 20:42:49 2009 From: shmee1 at mail.com (shmee1 at mail.com) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:42:49 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes Message-ID: <8CC2E2BEA2455EA-D48-CCB2@web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> Yesterday I took my lambs and two mature rams to be slaughtered.? The inspector informed me that some liver flukes, specifically lancets, were found in all of them.? This is the first time that I have encountered this issue, the inspector told me that he has never seen this in my sheep before having inspected them on three prior occassions.? I have dewormed my whole flock today with Ivomec, it was already in my plan to do so.? Do I need to treat with something else to address the liver flukes or will the Ivomec take care of it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Sat Nov 7 21:09:29 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:09:29 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF62859.9010808@windstream.net> So, there is no "primitive" body type? Jacobflock at aol.com wrote: > The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of > meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a > commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed > that is relatively unimproved. When "primitive" is used to describe > the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular > sheep but to a breed's performance. My frame of referemce for this > term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their > crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, > Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England > and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by > John Elwes. (The book is only a little longer than the title) > > He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds > (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old > Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and > "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced > Highland, Siberian and Orkney. The name Jacob given by Earl > Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't > caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes.. > > Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain > common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, > cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone > without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle > their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the > assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or > August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent > the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a > small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead > weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far > as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..." Elwes will keep his > sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to > maturity, all requiring little management. > > If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the > conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" > of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely > heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the > typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier. Some of these improved types might > be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to > import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing > Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock). Some might argue the primitive > type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded > Hescock's flock by several years. A comparison of the appearance of > these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the > difference between primitive and improved. However, primitive, as > first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no > evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size > or performance difference. > > Fred Horak > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Laura C Frazier > *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM > *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive? > > I'd like to have some clarification about the > characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've > heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", > including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. > Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? > > Thanks! > Laura > > Laura C Frazier > FarmGirl Arts > (336) 971-3834 > Kernersville, NC > http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snielsen1 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 7 22:27:30 2009 From: snielsen1 at earthlink.net (Susan Nielsen) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:27:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes Message-ID: <31878302.1257650850419.JavaMail.root@elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psisk at hughes.net Sat Nov 7 22:43:13 2009 From: psisk at hughes.net (Paul Sisk) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:43:13 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapies Message-ID: Scrapies is pretty much non-existent in Florida. Has anyone on the list he any Jacobs tested to see if they are RR, QR, or QQ? I was considering doing it just to remove any QQ stock if indeed the Jacobs are/do have QR or RR. Thanks Paul From gotothewhip at aol.com Sun Nov 8 00:34:32 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 00:34:32 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC2E4C48873AEE-6404-1AF5F@webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com> Paul, We test all our rams , and foundation ewes, and are slowly working our way thru the flock So far, all have been QR or RR Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -----Original Message----- From: Paul Sisk To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 8:43 pm Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapies Scrapies is pretty much non-existent in Florida. Has anyone on the list he ny Jacobs tested to see if they are RR, QR, or QQ? I was considering doing t just to remove any QQ stock if indeed the Jacobs are/do have QR or RR. Thanks aul _______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From griffin45 at live.com Sun Nov 8 07:38:35 2009 From: griffin45 at live.com (Chris and Tina Griffin) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 07:38:35 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am thinking that the primitive body type is small after reading all of the answers. I was interested in the history lesson of this topic. Lots of great information has been passed along on this last thread. I just have one little tidbit to add... True Jacob sheep of the bible would have been brown not spotted. The cattle Jacob kept were ringstraked, the goats were spotted and the sheep were brown. That is per the Authorized (King James) Version of the bible, Genesis 30:39. Reading the entire chapter you will see that Jacob allowed only the best and healthiest animals to breed, which to me is an important part of the Jacob sheep. They have been maintained by the present day shepherds the same way as Jacob would have - Keep the Heartiest and the Healthiest animals with the best markings. Chris www.griffinsark.com -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:33 PM To: Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5 > Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to > jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Intro and horns question (Paul Sisk) > 2. Liver Flukes (shmee1 at mail.com) > 3. Re: Primitive? (Linda) > 4. Re: Liver Flukes (Susan Nielsen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:42:43 -0500 > From: "Paul Sisk" > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Intro and horns question > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > I hope you'll join JSBA and register your sheep, if they aren't > registered > already. > > Enjoy your flock! > > Linda > > > > > I am mailing my membership in Monday. I intend to register all of the > four > horn ewes and the ram, who is also four horned and nearly perfect except > for > what he has broken off the tips. I got them from Lucinda Richardson in > Camilla. I got eight ewes and one ram. Six of the ewes are four horned and > very nice horns. I will still be looking for a young ram in the spring > though. > > Thanks to all who answered > Paul > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:42:49 -0500 > From: shmee1 at mail.com > Subject: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes > To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Message-ID: <8CC2E2BEA2455EA-D48-CCB2 at web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Yesterday I took my lambs and two mature rams to be slaughtered.? The > inspector informed me that some liver flukes, specifically lancets, were > found in all of them.? This is the first time that I have encountered this > issue, the inspector told me that he has never seen this in my sheep > before having inspected them on three prior occassions.? > > > > I have dewormed my whole flock today with Ivomec, it was already in my > plan to do so.? Do I need to treat with something else to address the > liver flukes or will the Ivomec take care of it? > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:09:29 -0500 > From: Linda > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? > To: Jacobflock at aol.com > Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com, > nlgrose at yadtel.net > Message-ID: <4AF62859.9010808 at windstream.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > So, there is no "primitive" body type? > > Jacobflock at aol.com wrote: >> The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of >> meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a >> commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed >> that is relatively unimproved. When "primitive" is used to describe >> the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular >> sheep but to a breed's performance. My frame of referemce for this >> term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their >> crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, >> Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England >> and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by >> John Elwes. (The book is only a little longer than the title) >> >> He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds >> (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old >> Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and >> "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced >> Highland, Siberian and Orkney. The name Jacob given by Earl >> Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't >> caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes.. >> >> Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain >> common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, >> cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone >> without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle >> their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the >> assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or >> August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent >> the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a >> small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead >> weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far >> as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..." Elwes will keep his >> sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to >> maturity, all requiring little management. >> >> If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the >> conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" >> of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely >> heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the >> typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier. Some of these improved types might >> be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to >> import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing >> Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock). Some might argue the primitive >> type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded >> Hescock's flock by several years. A comparison of the appearance of >> these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the >> difference between primitive and improved. However, primitive, as >> first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no >> evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size >> or performance difference. >> >> Fred Horak >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Laura C Frazier >> *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM >> *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive? >> >> I'd like to have some clarification about the >> characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've >> heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", >> including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. >> Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? >> >> Thanks! >> Laura >> >> Laura C Frazier >> FarmGirl Arts >> (336) 971-3834 >> Kernersville, NC >> http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:27:30 -0500 (EST) > From: Susan Nielsen > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes > To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Message-ID: > <31878302.1257650850419.JavaMail.root at elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > > End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5 > ***************************************** > From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Sun Nov 8 10:44:40 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 10:44:40 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? References: <4AF62859.9010808@windstream.net> Message-ID: <56FBDCCF0563473F90944FC7F8B6D4AC@DollyLama> I believe there is a primitive type Jacob. The American Jacob. The one with a deer-like conformation and a triangular head and sloping rump that tracks narrowly and stands on it's back legs to browse and fights off predators. After talking by phone with Luke Hardy and by e-mail with Edd Bissell and Jacques Lasseau they gave me this account of Jacobs in America: Dr Fell and Charles Humes both got Jacobs from the Chicago Zoo and Bill Reynolds got Jacobs from Dr. Fell. They feel these Jacobs came from a different source or a different flock than the Jacobs from Turner, but aren't sure which, and feel these Jacobs were before the Dorset influence or from a flock without the Dorset influence. The Jacobs from Turner had more of the large eye patches with pigmented muzzles and white legs while the Jacobs from the Chicago Zoo were mostly black muzzles and knee and hock spots and had more freckling. After Lasseau got the Jacobs from Turner there was a limited gene pool and Lasseau traded sheep with Bill Reynolds. Lasseau liked the black muzzles and smaller eye patches look that the Zoo sheep had so bred more for that look using Reynolds Nestor on his flock and back on the offspring. He also used Nestor's son Sheepside Samuel. Lasseau said Jacobs from England after 1982 should not be considered for registration in America unless they met all of our breed standard qualifications. Luke Hardy got Hardy Hill Sir Charles, who is in Ingrid's book, from Charlie Humes and named him after Charles Humes. Luke says all the Humes Jacobs had knee and hock spots and smaller eye patches. Hatch bought about 20 ewes from Reynolds and many of the offspring were sold on the West Coast. Bissell got Hatch's ram Eder and he had lots of small body spots, small eye patches and huge horns. Edd used Eder a lot. The Hatch stock often had one slipped eye patch, but always huge horns. So our Jacobs are a mix of different lines, but the American Jacob is suppose to have the primitive characteristics and this is something we should all breed for. It is what makes our Jacobs The American Jacob Sheep. Carl in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda To: Jacobflock at aol.com Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com ; farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com ; nlgrose at yadtel.net Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? So, there is no "primitive" body type? Jacobflock at aol.com wrote: The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed that is relatively unimproved. When "primitive" is used to describe the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular sheep but to a breed's performance. My frame of referemce for this term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by John Elwes. (The book is only a little longer than the title) He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced Highland, Siberian and Orkney. The name Jacob given by Earl Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes.. Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..." Elwes will keep his sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to maturity, all requiring little management. If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier. Some of these improved types might be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock). Some might argue the primitive type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded Hescock's flock by several years. A comparison of the appearance of these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the difference between primitive and improved. However, primitive, as first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size or performance difference. Fred Horak ----- Original Message ----- From: Laura C Frazier To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? I'd like to have some clarification about the characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? Thanks! Laura Laura C Frazier FarmGirl Arts (336) 971-3834 Kernersville, NC http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BISCHOW at aol.com Sun Nov 8 11:21:10 2009 From: BISCHOW at aol.com (BISCHOW at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 11:21:10 EST Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 6 Message-ID: The majority of ours were RR, with a couple QRs Louise you tell a horse. you ask a donkey. and you negotiate with a mule. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kenleighacres at yahoo.com Sun Nov 8 13:26:05 2009 From: kenleighacres at yahoo.com (Shannon Phifer) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 10:26:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? In-Reply-To: <56FBDCCF0563473F90944FC7F8B6D4AC@DollyLama> References: <4AF62859.9010808@windstream.net> <56FBDCCF0563473F90944FC7F8B6D4AC@DollyLama> Message-ID: <560380.6213.qm@web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> For some interesting reading along the same topic, you can visit the archives -http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list-?December 2000.? There are some very good points discussed.? I believe there are many pieces that go into making a primitive sheep, one of those being looks, but if we throw out the sheep that don't 'look' primitive then we may be throwing out the other traits, such as mothering ability, hardiness, etc.? I also agree that primitive should not mean small.? I have several individuals in our flock that I consider to have primitive body styles, but their frame is as big as some of our more 'improved' looking sheep.? I love the diversity that the Jacob breed offers. Shannon Phifer Kenleigh Acres Farm www.kenleigh-acres.com That'll Do Photography www.thatlldo.photoreflect.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paintedrockfarm at aol.com Sun Nov 8 13:48:08 2009 From: paintedrockfarm at aol.com (Cheryl Terrano) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:48:08 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapie In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC2EBB26300C61-327C-36C2C@webmail-d051.sysops.aol.com> Hi Paul, We test 10 rams every year for the codon 171 or scrapie resistance gene. This is something we have done at no cost to me since we are enrolled in the federal Voluntary Scrapie Flock Certification Program. I am not 100% sure if these are local WV funds used for testing or if those funds come in at the federal level but we can test any 10 males for free. Additional testing can be done at the time of inspection but the lab charges $22/head. We have opted to test those parents who throw a QR off-spring. Thus far, we have never had sheep test QQ and we elect to use only RR rams each fall. Most recently, we just achieved Certified Status within the Program - an achievement in the making for a number of years now. I would recommend checking into various local sources, such as your County Extension Office, your State Dept. of Agriculture as well as consider enrolling in the USDA program. You can find online info from USDA, using the link to APHIS (Animal Plant Health Inspection Service), which is the agency that administers the program. We have been enrolled since April 2002 and only recently applied for and received our Certified Flock Status. There is work involved - paper trail mostly for sold, butchered or animals that may die. But we have gotten a few perks along the way too - mostly becoming aware of various programs and grants available locally for sheep & goat producers. We have an annual inspection from the USDA vet and we now have a WV Honor Flock Status, which allows us to ship sheep within the state of WV w/o a health certificate. While I don't know all the details our newly reached Certified Status will bring, I must say it has been a very educational process and one I would certainly recommend to other shepherds. Good luck! Cheryl in WV http://paintedrockfarm.blogspot.com http://www.paintedrockfarm.com God longs to bring us to the place where we ache so much with His heart that to do nothing is simply no longer an option. (MATT REDMAN, The Unquenchable Worshipper) We will live as strangers and pilgrims on this earth, with sacrifice, commitment, tears and fasting, and touch the lost world with our lifestyle and commitment. (KP YOHANNAN, Founder, GOSPEL FOR ASIA) WHEN EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE SHAKEN IS SHAKEN, THE ANCHOR THAT HOLDS IS THE WISDOM OF THE CROSS. (Jason Upton, Key of David Ministries, from the CD 1200 ft below sea level). If you want to see God's power at work, you must get out of the church and into the world. Watch the extravagant lengths which God will go to reveal Himself to people who don't know Him. Then you will learn how truly awesome our God is. (Author Unknown) -----Original Message----- From: Paul Sisk To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sat, Nov 7, 2009 10:43 pm Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapies Scrapies is pretty much non-existent in Florida. Has anyone on the list he ny Jacobs tested to see if they are RR, QR, or QQ? I was considering doing t just to remove any QQ stock if indeed the Jacobs are/do have QR or RR. Thanks aul _______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paintedrockfarm at aol.com Sun Nov 8 14:22:15 2009 From: paintedrockfarm at aol.com (Cheryl Terrano) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 14:22:15 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC2EBFEA12133A-327C-3711E@webmail-d051.sysops.aol.com> Nice point, Chris....you are right about the King James verse. It reads "32I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire" But I must say when you read vs.32 in practically every other Bible version (including the New King James), the verse reads "....32 Let me go through all your flocks today and remove from them every speckled or spotted sheep, every dark-colored lamb and every spotted or speckled goat. They will be my wages." (That quote is from the NIV and is similar in various other translations). Here is the New King James Version "32 Let me pass through all your flock today, removing from there all the speckled and spotted sheep, and all the brown ones among the lambs, and the spotted and speckled among the goats; and these shall be my wages." Off the 'sheep history' perspective...one must also consider the KJV is an ENGLISH translation. So, if the King James is the only one which can be relied upon, what do all the people across the globe do who don't speak English? About 80% of the worlds Bibles are printed in English using English translation from the original texts but only about 2% of the worlds population speaks English. Even most Biblical Scholars will say the King James is still somewhat flawed. After all, there were 54 scholars working on that project and the English language itself is at best confusing to someone trying to learn it. Most will go on to say the Tyndale and/or Geneva were the ones most true to the original text. The arguments vary. One thing, however, remains the same and that is God Himself. For that, I am eternally grateful. Cheryl in WV http://www.paintedrockfarm.com God longs to bring us to the place where we ache so much with His heart that to do nothing is simply no longer an option. (MATT REDMAN, The Unquenchable Worshipper) We will live as strangers and pilgrims on this earth, with sacrifice, commitment, tears and fasting, and touch the lost world with our lifestyle and commitment. (KP YOHANNAN, Founder, GOSPEL FOR ASIA) WHEN EVERYTHING THAT CAN BE SHAKEN IS SHAKEN, THE ANCHOR THAT HOLDS IS THE WISDOM OF THE CROSS. (Jason Upton, Key of David Ministries, from the CD 1200 ft below sea level). If you want to see God's power at work, you must get out of the church and into the world. Watch the extravagant lengths which God will go to reveal Himself to people who don't know Him. Then you will learn how truly awesome our God is. (Author Unknown) -----Original Message----- From: Chris and Tina Griffin To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sun, Nov 8, 2009 7:38 am Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history I am thinking that the primitive body type is small after reading all of the answers. I was interested in the history lesson of this topic. Lots of great information has been passed along on this last thread. I just have one little tidbit to add... True Jacob sheep of the bible would have been brown not spotted. The cattle Jacob kept were ringstraked, the goats were spotted and the sheep were brown. That is per the Authorized (King James) Version of the bible, Genesis 30:39. Reading the entire chapter you will see that Jacob allowed only the best and healthiest animals to breed, which to me is an important part of the Jacob sheep. They have been maintained by the present day shepherds the same way as Jacob would have - Keep the Heartiest and the Healthiest animals with the best markings. Chris www.griffinsark.com -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:33 PM To: Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5 > Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to > jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Intro and horns question (Paul Sisk) > 2. Liver Flukes (shmee1 at mail.com) > 3. Re: Primitive? (Linda) > 4. Re: Liver Flukes (Susan Nielsen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:42:43 -0500 > From: "Paul Sisk" > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Intro and horns question > To: > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > I hope you'll join JSBA and register your sheep, if they aren't > registered > already. > > Enjoy your flock! > > Linda > > > > > I am mailing my membership in Monday. I intend to register all of the > four > horn ewes and the ram, who is also four horned and nearly perfect except > for > what he has broken off the tips. I got them from Lucinda Richardson in > Camilla. I got eight ewes and one ram. Six of the ewes are four horned and > very nice horns. I will still be looking for a young ram in the spring > though. > > Thanks to all who answered > Paul > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:42:49 -0500 > From: shmee1 at mail.com > Subject: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes > To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Message-ID: <8CC2E2BEA2455EA-D48-CCB2 at web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Yesterday I took my lambs and two mature rams to be slaughtered.? The > inspector informed me that some liver flukes, specifically lancets, were > found in all of them.? This is the first time that I have encountered this > issue, the inspector told me that he has never seen this in my sheep > before having inspected them on three prior occassions.? > > > > I have dewormed my whole flock today with Ivomec, it was already in my > plan to do so.? Do I need to treat with something else to address the > liver flukes or will the Ivomec take care of it? > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:09:29 -0500 > From: Linda > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? > To: Jacobflock at aol.com > Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com, > nlgrose at yadtel.net > Message-ID: <4AF62859.9010808 at windstream.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > So, there is no "primitive" body type? > > Jacobflock at aol.com wrote: >> The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of >> meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a >> commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed >> that is relatively unimproved. When "primitive" is used to describe >> the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular >> sheep but to a breed's performance. My frame of referemce for this >> term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their >> crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, >> Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England >> and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by >> John Elwes. (The book is only a little longer than the title) >> >> He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds >> (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old >> Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and >> "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced >> Highland, Siberian and Orkney. The name Jacob given by Earl >> Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't >> caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes.. >> >> Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain >> common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, >> cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone >> without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle >> their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the >> assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or >> August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent >> the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a >> small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead >> weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far >> as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..." Elwes will keep his >> sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to >> maturity, all requiring little management. >> >> If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the >> conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" >> of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely >> heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the >> typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier. Some of these improved types might >> be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to >> import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing >> Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock). Some might argue the primitive >> type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded >> Hescock's flock by several years. A comparison of the appearance of >> these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the >> difference between primitive and improved. However, primitive, as >> first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no >> evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size >> or performance difference. >> >> Fred Horak >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* Laura C Frazier >> *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM >> *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive? >> >> I'd like to have some clarification about the >> characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've >> heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", >> including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. >> Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? >> >> Thanks! >> Laura >> >> Laura C Frazier >> FarmGirl Arts >> (336) 971-3834 >> Kernersville, NC >> http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:27:30 -0500 (EST) > From: Susan Nielsen > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes > To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Message-ID: > <31878302.1257650850419.JavaMail.root at elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > > End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5 > ***************************************** > _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Sun Nov 8 19:20:16 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:20:16 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AF76040.5090705@windstream.net> Is scrapie non-existent in Florida, or are there few enrolled flocks? Southwind in NY has tested most of their flock and all of their rams. The results are listed on their website. Many other breeders have tested. While I would probably not use a QQ ram (if I knew), I would hope that breeders are not culling QQ ewes. The breed is rare and using an RR ram on a QQ ewe will give you QR lambs. Linda Paul Sisk wrote: > Scrapies is pretty much non-existent in Florida. Has anyone on the list he > any Jacobs tested to see if they are RR, QR, or QQ? I was considering doing > it just to remove any QQ stock if indeed the Jacobs are/do have QR or RR. > > Thanks > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From psisk at hughes.net Sun Nov 8 20:39:38 2009 From: psisk at hughes.net (Paul Sisk) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:39:38 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapies In-Reply-To: <4AF76040.5090705@windstream.net> Message-ID: Is scrapie non-existent in Florida, or are there few enrolled flocks? There arent a lot of sheep in Florida. I think there are twenty nine flocks enrolled in the scrapie program. Any animal traveling inside the state has to have a flock tag that is issued by the state and can be traced to the owner. I have never even heard of a case of scrapies in Florida. But if a case were to pop up it can be traced back to the flock/premises of origin. I wouldnt cull any QQ ewes but will breed only RR or QR rams. I intend to research the availability of testing starting tomorrow for my flock. Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stcroft at ptd.net Sun Nov 8 20:47:10 2009 From: stcroft at ptd.net (Susan J Martin) Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:47:10 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Scrapie Testing Message-ID: <0A891A2961264DAF94D2D22FAE3A1844@Ultra> Here in Pennsylvania our Dept. of Ag. is offering free genotyping on up to four rams, ewes are not tested in this program. The test is free but the vet fee for blood draw is the responsibility of the farmer...and the samples must be drawn by specified state officials or a private accredited vet. Funding is limited and testing will be performed on a first come, first served basis. This is new for our State and was only implemented recently. Sue Martin Stonecroft -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nlgrose at yadtel.net Mon Nov 9 04:56:58 2009 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 04:56:58 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history References: <8CC2EBFEA12133A-327C-3711E@webmail-d051.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: "God's Secretaries" * did a pretty good job with the Hebrew Bible, actually. Most of the problems with the King James Version came because they had a less accurate copy of the Greek New Testament to work with. Here is the verse in question in the Hebrew Bible in English ( http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0130.htm ). I'll let Jews translate their own scripture. 30:32 I will pass through all thy flock to-day, removing from thence every speckled and spotted one, and every dark one among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats; and of such shall be my hire. 33 So shall my righteousness witness against me hereafter, when thou shalt come to look over my hire that is before thee: every one that is not speckled and spotted among the goats, and dark among the sheep, that if found with me shall be counted stolen.' * I highly recommend this book, Ithink it's by Adam Nickolson. Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- From: Cheryl Terrano To: griffin45 at live.com Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history Nice point, Chris....you are right about the King James verse. It reads "32I will pass through all thy flock to day, removing from thence all the speckled and spotted cattle, and all the brown cattle among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats: and of such shall be my hire" But I must say when you read vs.32 in practically every other Bible version (including the New King James), the verse reads "....32 Let me go through all your flocks today and remove from them every speckled or spotted sheep, every dark-colored lamb and every spotted or speckled goat. They will be my wages." (That quote is from the NIV and is similar in various other translations). Here is the New King James Version "32 Let me pass through all your flock today, removing from there all the speckled and spotted sheep, and all the brown ones among the lambs, and the spotted and speckled among the goats; and these shall be my wages." Off the 'sheep history' perspective...one must also consider the KJV is an ENGLISH translation. So, if the King James is the only one which can be relied upon, what do all the people across the globe do who don't speak English? About 80% of the worlds Bibles are printed in English using English translation from the original texts but only about 2% of the worlds population speaks English. Even most Biblical Scholars will say the King James is still somewhat flawed. After all, there were 54 scholars working on that project and the English language itself is at best confusing to someone trying to learn it. Most will go on to say the Tyndale and/or Geneva were the ones most true to the original text. The arguments vary. One thing, however, remains the same and that is God Himself. For that, I am eternally grateful. Cheryl in WV http://www.paintedrockfarm.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nlgrose at yadtel.net Mon Nov 9 05:23:37 2009 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 05:23:37 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? References: <4AF62859.9010808@windstream.net><56FBDCCF0563473F90944FC7F8B6D4AC@DollyLama> <560380.6213.qm@web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was thinking about some of these points last night. If we go back to our original rams, Pan and Buster (registered with AMBC before 1988) and Augustus. Pan was linebred from NE zoo stock, slight build and had great coloration on his legs and muzzle. Buster was linebred Hescock, much heavier build with a blaze face. Augustus came from mostly Hatch background, robust horns and white legs. Pan was certainly the "most primitive", but each of the others had characteristics that reflected primitive traits. During breeding season, Buster's neck swelled so much he could hardly turn his head. Augustus had coarse wool on his neck that made it look like a mane. We (that is the breed) would not have "good horns" if we had not included the coarser stock because that trait is linked to the more robust bone of the heavier animals. In our own flock, we have gone back to concentrate on the lighter framed sheep because gosh darn it, we like them better: but the horns have suffered somewhat as a result. And then there is "Ram-I-Am" our first sheep: 90 pounds-wringing-wet inbred from original Tramulatola ram, 5 un-symmetrical horns, 75% black, a fleece so open it only weighed 2 pounds, and had the ultimate "I'm a Jacob Ram and you're NOT" attitude. He was perfect. And he quite rightfully failed inspection. Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- From: Shannon Phifer To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:26 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? For some interesting reading along the same topic, you can visit the archives -http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list - December 2000. There are some very good points discussed. I believe there are many pieces that go into making a primitive sheep, one of those being looks, but if we throw out the sheep that don't 'look' primitive then we may be throwing out the other traits, such as mothering ability, hardiness, etc. I also agree that primitive should not mean small. I have several individuals in our flock that I consider to have primitive body styles, but their frame is as big as some of our more 'improved' looking sheep. I love the diversity that the Jacob breed offers. Shannon Phifer Kenleigh Acres Farm www.kenleigh-acres.com That'll Do Photography www.thatlldo.photoreflect.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lambfarm at sover.net Mon Nov 9 07:02:52 2009 From: lambfarm at sover.net (Betty Berlenbach) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 07:02:52 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history References: Message-ID: <006a01ca6135$0f4dd340$03a172d8@USER5AFE0954BF> For the record, the NRSV version, which is a more accurate version of the bible (lots of mistranslations in KJV, due to less understanding of the languages when translated years ago. The newer translations have taken into account more research, more manuscripts to consult, etc.) says in the verse you quoted,' striped, spotted and speckled..' I will try to do more research and look up the Hebrew, though my Hebrew is a bit rusty, and I'm not sure I can find a dictionary...might have given it away when I retired. (from ordained ministry).Nevertheless, I will try...and get back to you. KJV is a beautiful work of art, to be sure, and wonderful poetry, but for accuracy of translation, you may want to try another version as well. When preparing sermons, I always tried to look up the bible passage in at least four different translations and consult at least four commentaries by folks more learned in biblical history than I ever will be. Then, I prayed over it and wrote the sermon. Bottom line, I don't think it is really very important what color Jacob's sheep really were. DNA tests I believe show some similarities to middle eastern sheep, and some to northern European sheep, but also a uniqueness in jacobs as a breed. It's a lovely story that they are descended from Jacob's sheep, and I don't rule out the possibility that there is some credence in it, but I don't think it is terribly important in terms of the sheep or us. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris and Tina Griffin" To: Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:38 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history >I am thinking that the primitive body type is small after reading all of >the answers. I was interested in the history lesson of this topic. Lots >of great information has been passed along on this last thread. I just >have one little tidbit to add... True Jacob sheep of the bible would have >been brown not spotted. The cattle Jacob kept were ringstraked, the goats >were spotted and the sheep were brown. That is per the Authorized (King >James) Version of the bible, Genesis 30:39. Reading the entire chapter you >will see that Jacob allowed only the best and healthiest animals to breed, >which to me is an important part of the Jacob sheep. They have been >maintained by the present day shepherds the same way as Jacob would have - >Keep the Heartiest and the Healthiest animals with the best markings. > > Chris > www.griffinsark.com > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: > Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:33 PM > To: > Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5 > >> Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to >> jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Intro and horns question (Paul Sisk) >> 2. Liver Flukes (shmee1 at mail.com) >> 3. Re: Primitive? (Linda) >> 4. Re: Liver Flukes (Susan Nielsen) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:42:43 -0500 >> From: "Paul Sisk" >> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Intro and horns question >> To: >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> >> >> I hope you'll join JSBA and register your sheep, if they aren't >> registered >> already. >> >> Enjoy your flock! >> >> Linda >> >> >> >> >> I am mailing my membership in Monday. I intend to register all of the >> four >> horn ewes and the ram, who is also four horned and nearly perfect except >> for >> what he has broken off the tips. I got them from Lucinda Richardson in >> Camilla. I got eight ewes and one ram. Six of the ewes are four horned >> and >> very nice horns. I will still be looking for a young ram in the spring >> though. >> >> Thanks to all who answered >> Paul >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 20:42:49 -0500 >> From: shmee1 at mail.com >> Subject: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes >> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> Message-ID: <8CC2E2BEA2455EA-D48-CCB2 at web-mmc-d06.sysops.aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> Yesterday I took my lambs and two mature rams to be slaughtered.? The >> inspector informed me that some liver flukes, specifically lancets, were >> found in all of them.? This is the first time that I have encountered >> this issue, the inspector told me that he has never seen this in my sheep >> before having inspected them on three prior occassions.? >> >> >> >> I have dewormed my whole flock today with Ivomec, it was already in my >> plan to do so.? Do I need to treat with something else to address the >> liver flukes or will the Ivomec take care of it? >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 2009 21:09:29 -0500 >> From: Linda >> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? >> To: Jacobflock at aol.com >> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com, farmgirlarts at triad.rr.com, >> nlgrose at yadtel.net >> Message-ID: <4AF62859.9010808 at windstream.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >> >> So, there is no "primitive" body type? >> >> Jacobflock at aol.com wrote: >>> The term "primitive" referring to sheep can have a variety of >>> meanings depending on one's orientation, e.g., a divergence from a >>> commercial standard or a divergence from a breed standard or a breed >>> that is relatively unimproved. When "primitive" is used to describe >>> the Jacob breed the term might be better applied, not to a particular >>> sheep but to a breed's performance. My frame of referemce for this >>> term has always been "Guide to the Primitive Breeds of Sheep and their >>> crosses on Exhibition at the Royal Agricultural Society's Show, >>> Bristol, 1913 with notes on the Management of Park Sheep in England >>> and the Possible Advantages of Crossing Them with Improved Breeds" by >>> John Elwes. (The book is only a little longer than the title) >>> >>> He describes his dozen years of breeding some of the original breeds >>> (primitive breeds) still surviving in England in the early 1900's: Old >>> Horned Wiltshire, Norfolk, Shetland, Manx, Soay, Hebridian, and >>> "Spanish" or Piebald Sheep, Fat Rumped sheep, Welsh Sheep, Black-Faced >>> Highland, Siberian and Orkney. The name Jacob given by Earl >>> Fitzwilliam to the Spanish Sheep fifty years earlier still hasn't >>> caught on and won't until fifty years after this work by Elwes.. >>> >>> Elwes describes these primitive, unimproved, breeds as having certain >>> common traits: "Firstly, breed capable of enduring extremes of wet, >>> cold and heat ... Secondly, they must be able to winter on grass alone >>> without suffering from lameness.... Thirdly, to produce and suckle >>> their lambs without the shelter of a ewe pen and without the >>> assistance of a shepherd... Fourthly, to get a fat lamb in July or >>> August without any more artificial food than is necessary to prevent >>> the ewes from scouring ... or if lambs are kept over winter to make a >>> small carcass of high-class mutton, not exceeding 40-50 pounds dead >>> weight at 18-20 months old off the grass. Fifthly, to produce as far >>> as possible a flleece of fine soft wool ..." Elwes will keep his >>> sheep in park with his deer, observing the sheep's slower pace to >>> maturity, all requiring little management. >>> >>> If one jumps ahead to the founding of the Jacob Sheep Society, the >>> conservation of the breed takes a course based on "commercialization" >>> of the breed, voices to conserve the primitive type were not widely >>> heeded. After a relatively few years the Jacob is standardized and the >>> typical Jacob is 10-20% heavier. Some of these improved types might >>> be represented by the Jacobs Ladder line as Todd's purpose was to >>> import good stock to commercialize the Jacob in the US. (The Importing >>> Woes Were Worth It by Todd Hescock). Some might argue the primitive >>> type might be represented by Tony Turner's flock which preceded >>> Hescock's flock by several years. A comparison of the appearance of >>> these two types adds some but not compelling evidence of the >>> difference between primitive and improved. However, primitive, as >>> first used in reference to Jacobs, really goes to performance and no >>> evidence, other than Todd's article, has indicated a size >>> or performance difference. >>> >>> Fred Horak >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> *From:* Laura C Frazier >>> *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 03, 2009 9:41 PM >>> *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive? >>> >>> I'd like to have some clarification about the >>> characteristics/traits of the "primitive" Jacob sheep. I've >>> heard/read of some individuals being referred to as "primitive", >>> including my ram, and I'd just like to better understand this. >>> Less black? Finer bones? Smaller in stature? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> Laura >>> >>> Laura C Frazier >>> FarmGirl Arts >>> (336) 971-3834 >>> Kernersville, NC >>> http://home.rr.com/farmgirlarts >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >>> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >>> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >>> >> >> -- >> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sat, 7 Nov 2009 22:27:30 -0500 (EST) >> From: Susan Nielsen >> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Liver Flukes >> To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> Message-ID: >> <31878302.1257650850419.JavaMail.root at elwamui-karabash.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> >> >> End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 5 >> ***************************************** >> > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > From southwindfarms at frontiernet.net Mon Nov 9 08:34:01 2009 From: southwindfarms at frontiernet.net (southwindfarms at frontiernet.net) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 13:34:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Jacob-list] Fwd: Jacob scrapie testing In-Reply-To: <1973030613.1819561257773207164.JavaMail.root@cl05-host04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <228240035.1820471257773641457.JavaMail.root@cl05-host04.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> Subject: Jacob scrapie testing We have been certified scrapie free for several years. I believe the most important thing from scrapie testing is ram selection since a QR or worse a QQ ram would affect the entire flock. NY also does not and has not had issues with scrapie but it doesn't hurt to know what you have, particularly in a ram. I have been raising Jacobs since 1989. I have been testing for scrapie resistance for many years. NY tests rams for free. At this point I use only RR rams and have for the past few years. Originally I tested the whole flock. At that point there were 3 ewes out of 30 that were QQ. I culled one and made sure to use only RR on the others. They are both gone now but I was able to retain their genetics in QR offspring. I don't bring in outside ewes. I rarely test my ewes now but have a good idea who is RR (offspring from RR/RR matings) and who could be QR (offspring from QR/RR matings, some of these could also be RR. Sincerely, Laura Burnside, manager Southwind Farms www.southwindfarms.org From gotothewhip at aol.com Mon Nov 9 11:45:40 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:45:40 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob makes it as a cover model! Message-ID: <8CC2F7334710823-95A4-C5D3@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Very excited to see that onr of my rams is featured on their Ads for Sopris sheep halters... I am a BIG fam of their products, and am tickled that Turbo is their Cover Boy! They took this photo at Estes Park Wool Market http://www.soprissheep.com/sheep.html Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kenleighacres at yahoo.com Mon Nov 9 13:55:42 2009 From: kenleighacres at yahoo.com (Shannon Phifer) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 10:55:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive? In-Reply-To: References: <4AF62859.9010808@windstream.net><56FBDCCF0563473F90944FC7F8B6D4AC@DollyLama> <560380.6213.qm@web51004.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <549647.3662.qm@web51010.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Here is a good thread from 2002.? Neal - you had some great points in this particular post - http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/2002-January/002526.html, I love the phrase - 'primitive, but not too primitive'?and Juliet has a great list of primitive characteristics here - http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/2002-January/002519.html It is important to remember that going to one extreme or the other can be dangerous to a breed.? Everything in moderation! ? Shannon Phifer Kenleigh Acres Farm www.kenleigh-acres.com That'll Do Photography www.thatlldo.photoreflect.com ? ________________________________ From: Neal and Louise Grose To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Mon, November 9, 2009 2:23:37 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? I was thinking about some of these points last night. If we go back to our original rams, Pan and?Buster?(registered with AMBC before 1988) and Augustus.?Pan was linebred from NE zoo stock, slight build and had great coloration on his legs and muzzle. Buster was linebred Hescock, much heavier build with a blaze face. Augustus came from mostly Hatch background, robust horns and white legs. ? Pan was certainly the "most primitive", but each of the others had characteristics that reflected primitive traits. During breeding season, Buster's neck swelled so much he could hardly turn his head. Augustus had coarse wool on his neck that made?it look like a mane. ? We (that is the breed) would not have "good horns" if we had not included the coarser stock because that trait is linked to the more robust bone of the heavier animals. In our own flock, we have gone back to concentrate on the lighter framed sheep because gosh darn it, we like them better: but the horns have suffered somewhat as a result. ? And then there is "Ram-I-Am" our first sheep: 90 pounds-wringing-wet inbred from original Tramulatola ram, 5 un-symmetrical?horns, 75% black,?a fleece so open it only weighed?2 pounds, and had the ultimate "I'm a Jacob Ram and you're NOT" attitude. He was perfect. And he quite rightfully?failed?inspection. ? Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- >From: Shannon Phifer >To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:26 PM >Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive? > > >For some interesting reading along the same topic, you can visit the archives -http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list-?December 2000.? There are some very good points discussed.? I believe there are many pieces that go into making a primitive sheep, one of those being looks, but if we throw out the sheep that don't 'look' primitive then we may be throwing out the other traits, such as mothering ability, hardiness, etc.? I also agree that primitive should not mean small.? I have several individuals in our flock that I consider to have primitive body styles, but their frame is as big as some of our more 'improved' looking sheep.? I love the diversity that the Jacob breed offers. > >Shannon Phifer >Kenleigh Acres Farm >www.kenleigh-acres.com >That'll Do Photography >www.thatlldo.photoreflect.com >? >? ________________________________ _______________________________________________ >Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From shmee1 at mail.com Tue Nov 10 12:40:19 2009 From: shmee1 at mail.com (shmee1 at mail.com) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 12:40:19 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] liver flukes Message-ID: <8CC304401603C53-FE8-25FB@web-mmc-d16.sysops.aol.com> So far only one person has weighed in on this topic, and I was hoping to get more of a response. Do other breeders of Jacobs get liver flukes? Am I doing something horribly wrong to now start getting them? Do I need to be concerned? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snielsen1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 10 15:16:55 2009 From: snielsen1 at earthlink.net (Susan Nielsen) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 15:16:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Jacob-list] liver flukes Message-ID: <1590821.1257884215991.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Tue Nov 10 19:02:56 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2009 19:02:56 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] liver flukes In-Reply-To: <8CC304401603C53-FE8-25FB@web-mmc-d16.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC304401603C53-FE8-25FB@web-mmc-d16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4AF9FF30.2080807@windstream.net> We showed liver flukes in butchered sheep about 10 years ago. We haven't seen them since and we do butcher sheep every year. Around here (northeast Georgia), Valbezan is the recommended treatment for liver flukes. I think that ivermectin might list as being effective against liver flukes, but hasn't proved to effective in our area. I've seen a higher dosage than usual recommended for Valbezan if you are treating liver flukes, but I just use the usual dosage. Valbezan should not be used for ewes in the first 90 days of gestation or within 45 days before breeding, so I only use it once a year. It's the only dewormer around here that works for tapeworms. Linda shmee1 at mail.com wrote: > So far only one person has weighed in on this topic, and I was hoping > to get more of a response. > > Do other breeders of Jacobs get liver flukes? Am I doing something > horribly wrong to now start getting them? Do I need to be concerned? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jacobflock at aol.com Wed Nov 11 19:13:47 2009 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:13:47 EST Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history Message-ID: I have found the article in the Encyclopedia Judaica (Biology, pp 1024-1028) to be of interest in telling the story of Jacob from the Hebrew text. One point the Rabbis and J Feliks (article writers) makes is that the Christian Bible story in English doesn't present the story as it should be understood. According to the European Christian interpretation of the story, the rods that Jacob peeled for white stripes "set over against the flocks" (Jacob's flock) led to the birth of "spotted" sheep. This is not a proper understanding of the Hebrew story. Jacob says to Laban, "I will pass through your flock, remove every speckled and spotted one, and every dark one among the sheep, and the spotted and speckled among the goats; and of such will be my hire." The population of sheep, 75% are white wooled, 25% brown spotted wool and about 75% of the goats are black, 25% of the goats have white or brown spots. White sheep and black goats are "monochrome", spotted sheep and goats are "spotted". Jacob suggested that Laban separate from the monochrome sheep all the spotted ones and take them for himself and he, Jacob, would tend only the monochrome ones. As his pay, ("and of such shall be my hire") he would keep all the spotted born of the monochrome sheep and goats. Laban likes the idea, assuming the monochrome sheep would not produce many if any spotted sheep and Laban takes the spotted sheep and sends them off with his sons into the next county. Jacob, the grifter and con man, who just took high school sheep tending for six years, remembers ... phenotype and genotype are different ... they were all monochrome but they were 1/3 homozygotes and 2/3 heterozygotes for spots. Jacob had to breed the heterozygotes among themselves. Then the dream. "Lift up your eyes and see all the he-goats which leap upon the flock are streaked, speckled and grizzled". The heterozygotes had excessive potency (hybrid vigor heterosis); the "spotted" carriers conceived earlier than the homozygotes. The "stronger" are the mekusharot, the "feebler" the atufim. Jacob laid the peeled rods before the mekusharot that they might conceive, but not when the flock were atufim, i.e, not before those that would conceive later. The atufim were Labans. The peeled rods? Jacob conned Laban by using the "superstitious" ag technique of the time ... breeding done in a certain environment or under certain signs resulted in god/bad offspring. The next story ... Rachel gets the mandrakes for fertility and a son. Whoops, Leah has the child. Those superstitions don't seem to work, Yaweh has a plan that will work. I asked a Kurdish friend about the peeled stakes; some shepherds still use them today. Fred Horak In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:04:32 A.M. Central Standard Time, nlgrose at yadtel.net writes: "God's Secretaries" * did a pretty good job with the Hebrew Bible, actually. Most of the problems with the King James Version came because they had a less accurate copy of the Greek New Testament to work with. Here is the verse in question in the Hebrew Bible in English ( _http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0130.htm_ (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0130.htm) ). I'll let Jews translate their own scripture. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Wed Nov 11 19:16:26 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:16:26 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] primitive vs 'back in the old days' Message-ID: <4AFB53DA.5000000@windstream.net> The discussion on primitive characteristics has been very interesting - and it was fun to go back to the archives and see what we all said about it in 2002. The original post from FarmGirl was in reference to what a primitive sheep looks like. > Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about > primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits > were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, > track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, > deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck > wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, > sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent > discussion on the list it appears we could add > jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to > the list also. > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Wed Nov 11 19:19:00 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:19:00 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] [Fwd: primitive vs 'back in the old days'] Message-ID: <4AFB5474.9060008@windstream.net> Hit send when I meant to hit save... more later -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [Jacob-list] primitive vs 'back in the old days' Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:16:26 -0500 From: Linda To: jacob-list The discussion on primitive characteristics has been very interesting - and it was fun to go back to the archives and see what we all said about it in 2002. The original post from FarmGirl was in reference to what a primitive sheep looks like. > Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about > primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits > were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, > track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, > deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck > wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, > sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent > discussion on the list it appears we could add > jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to > the list also. > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Wed Nov 11 20:03:36 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:03:36 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob makes it as a cover model! In-Reply-To: <8CC2F7334710823-95A4-C5D3@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC2F7334710823-95A4-C5D3@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4AFB5EE8.9060908@windstream.net> That's great - wonder how many people will wonder what kind of "goat" Turbo is :-) gotothewhip at aol.com wrote: > Very excited to see that onr of my rams is featured on their Ads for > Sopris sheep halters... I am a BIG fam of their products, and am > tickled that Turbo is their Cover Boy! They took this photo at Estes > Park Wool Market > > http://www.soprissheep.com/sheep.html > > > Jennifer Tucker > Moose Mtn Ranch > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From griffin45 at live.com Thu Nov 12 17:24:18 2009 From: griffin45 at live.com (Chris and Tina Griffin) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 17:24:18 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The knowledge of this group continues to astound me. I would have quoted the literal Hebrew had I been home and I am so glad that multiple versions were quoted since my original posting. Now Linda had to add some new information that really got my juices flowing. A sheep browsing on its hind legs, that would be interesting to see. Of all the primitive traits that Linda brought up, our sheep exhibit all but the browsing. I wonder if I can train them?!? Chris www.griffinsark.com -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:15 PM To: Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to > jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Primitive and history (Jacobflock at aol.com) > 2. primitive vs 'back in the old days' (Linda) > 3. [Fwd: primitive vs 'back in the old days'] (Linda) > 4. Re: Jacob makes it as a cover model! (Linda) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:13:47 EST > From: Jacobflock at aol.com > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history > To: nlgrose at yadtel.net > Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I have found the article in the Encyclopedia Judaica (Biology, pp > 1024-1028) to be of interest in telling the story of Jacob from the Hebrew > text. > One point the Rabbis and J Feliks (article writers) makes is that the > Christian Bible story in English doesn't present the story as it should > be > understood. According to the European Christian interpretation of the > story, the > rods that Jacob peeled for white stripes "set over against the flocks" > (Jacob's flock) led to the birth of "spotted" sheep. This is not a > proper > understanding of the Hebrew story. > > Jacob says to Laban, "I will pass through your flock, remove every > speckled > and spotted one, and every dark one among the sheep, and the spotted and > speckled among the goats; and of such will be my hire." The population of > sheep, 75% are white wooled, 25% brown spotted wool and about 75% of the > goats are black, 25% of the goats have white or brown spots. White sheep > and > black goats are "monochrome", spotted sheep and goats are "spotted". > Jacob suggested that Laban separate from the monochrome sheep all the > spotted > ones and take them for himself and he, Jacob, would tend only the > monochrome > ones. As his pay, ("and of such shall be my hire") he would keep all the > spotted born of the monochrome sheep and goats. > > Laban likes the idea, assuming the monochrome sheep would not produce many > if any spotted sheep and Laban takes the spotted sheep and sends them off > with his sons into the next county. Jacob, the grifter and con man, who > just took high school sheep tending for six years, remembers ... > phenotype and > genotype are different ... they were all monochrome but they were 1/3 > homozygotes and 2/3 heterozygotes for spots. Jacob had to breed the > heterozygotes among themselves. > > Then the dream. "Lift up your eyes and see all the he-goats which leap > upon > the flock are streaked, speckled and grizzled". The heterozygotes had > excessive potency (hybrid vigor heterosis); the "spotted" carriers > conceived > earlier than the homozygotes. The "stronger" are the mekusharot, the > "feebler" the atufim. Jacob laid the peeled rods before the mekusharot > that they > might conceive, but not when the flock were atufim, i.e, not before those > that would conceive later. The atufim were Labans. > > The peeled rods? Jacob conned Laban by using the "superstitious" ag > technique of the time ... breeding done in a certain environment or under > certain signs resulted in god/bad offspring. > > The next story ... Rachel gets the mandrakes for fertility and a son. > Whoops, Leah has the child. Those superstitions don't seem to work, > Yaweh has > a plan that will work. > > I asked a Kurdish friend about the peeled stakes; some shepherds still use > them today. > > Fred Horak > > > > In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:04:32 A.M. Central Standard Time, > nlgrose at yadtel.net writes: > > "God's Secretaries" * did a pretty good job with the Hebrew Bible, > actually. Most of the problems with the King James Version came because > they had a > less accurate copy of the Greek New Testament to work with. Here is the > verse in question in the Hebrew Bible in English ( > _http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0130.htm_ > (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0130.htm) ). I'll > let Jews translate their own scripture. > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:16:26 -0500 > From: Linda > Subject: [Jacob-list] primitive vs 'back in the old days' > To: jacob-list > Message-ID: <4AFB53DA.5000000 at windstream.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > The discussion on primitive characteristics has been very interesting - > and it was fun to go back to the archives and see what we all said about > it in 2002. > The original post from FarmGirl was in reference to what a primitive > sheep looks like. >> Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about >> primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits >> were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, >> track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, >> deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck >> wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, >> sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent >> discussion on the list it appears we could add >> jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to >> the list also. >> > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:19:00 -0500 > From: Linda > Subject: [Jacob-list] [Fwd: primitive vs 'back in the old days'] > To: jacob-list > Message-ID: <4AFB5474.9060008 at windstream.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Hit send when I meant to hit save... more later > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: [Jacob-list] primitive vs 'back in the old days' > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:16:26 -0500 > From: Linda > To: jacob-list > > > > The discussion on primitive characteristics has been very interesting - > and it was fun to go back to the archives and see what we all said about > it in 2002. > The original post from FarmGirl was in reference to what a primitive > sheep looks like. >> Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about >> primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits >> were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, >> track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, >> deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck >> wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, >> sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent >> discussion on the list it appears we could add >> jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to >> the list also. >> > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:03:36 -0500 > From: Linda > Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Jacob makes it as a cover model! > To: gotothewhip at aol.com > Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Message-ID: <4AFB5EE8.9060908 at windstream.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > That's great - wonder how many people will wonder what kind of "goat" > Turbo is :-) > > gotothewhip at aol.com wrote: >> Very excited to see that onr of my rams is featured on their Ads for >> Sopris sheep halters... I am a BIG fam of their products, and am >> tickled that Turbo is their Cover Boy! They took this photo at Estes >> Park Wool Market >> >> http://www.soprissheep.com/sheep.html >> >> >> Jennifer Tucker >> Moose Mtn Ranch >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > > End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > ****************************************** > From jacobsheep8 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 12 17:35:48 2009 From: jacobsheep8 at yahoo.com (Trish) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 14:35:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <833898.31752.qm@web36202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You don't have to train them-just place them in a pasture with trees having some low branches with yummy leaves. Our sheep love to browse, and we often see them on their hind legs. Trish Trish Barrows Amazing Grace Farm-NY Jacob Sheep and Angora Rabbits http://amazinggracefarm.wordpress.com/ --- On Thu, 11/12/09, Chris and Tina Griffin wrote: > From: Chris and Tina Griffin > Subject: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive > To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Date: Thursday, November 12, 2009, 5:24 PM > The knowledge of this group continues > to astound me.? I would have quoted the literal Hebrew > had I been home and I am so glad that multiple versions were > quoted since my original posting.? Now Linda had to add > some new information that really got my juices > flowing.? A sheep browsing on its hind legs, that would > be interesting to see.? Of all the primitive traits > that Linda brought up, our sheep exhibit all but the > browsing.? I wonder if I can train them?!? > > Chris > www.griffinsark.com > From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Thu Nov 12 18:33:56 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 18:33:56 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4AFC9B64.7020506@windstream.net> I sent that along before finishing the post. A family crisis intervened as I was writing. The quote below is not mine - it's from the archives and was written by Carl Fosbrink years ago. I was going to add that I don't think we see tracking as often as we used to. RubyBelle always reminds me of a runway model with one foot in front of the other as she walks. I am uncertain about considering shedding belly wool as a primitive trait, as I did see that in the commercial sheep I had. What I was really getting at in my half done/baked post was to wonder if we might sometimes use the word "primitive" when taking about _physical_ attributes to refer to the way Jacobs used to be back in the organizational days of JSBA. It was not that long ago that JSBA voted to stop registering ewes that had only scurs. Were those scurred ewes "primitive"? Are manes on rams "primitive"? Kemp? There have been changes over the years over what is accepted for registration as well as what we like to see in our sheep. The original breeders that worked to establish JSBA and JSC had to travel far and wide to gather sheep to work with. I'm sure that not all the sheep they found remained in breeding flocks. Not all of the original traits - especially (for me)weak ewe horns - are what defines a Jacob (again, for me) at this point. We could argue forever on what constitutes a "primitive","real", or "the way they were back then" Jacob fleece. I love the diversity of our breed. I don't compromise on horns or hardiness, but I love having big and little sheep, dark and light sheep, and fleeces that are soft enough for next-to-the-skin projects, bouncy and crimpy enough for knitted garments, less crimpy and lustrous for wonderful woven projects, and even the coarser fleeces for rug weaving. Linda Chris and Tina Griffin wrote: > The knowledge of this group continues to astound me. I would have > quoted the literal Hebrew had I been home and I am so glad that > multiple versions were quoted since my original posting. Now Linda > had to add some new information that really got my juices flowing. A > sheep browsing on its hind legs, that would be interesting to see. Of > all the primitive traits that Linda brought up, our sheep exhibit all > but the browsing. I wonder if I can train them?!? > > Chris > www.griffinsark.com > >> >>> Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about >>> primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits >>> were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, >>> track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, >>> deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck >>> wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, >>> sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent >>> discussion on the list it appears we could add >>> jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to >>> the list also. >>> >> >> - Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From agf777 at earthlink.net Thu Nov 12 21:00:00 2009 From: agf777 at earthlink.net (Steve and Trish Barrows) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 21:00:00 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive References: Message-ID: <7E57811EA2FF4247B505C5D38D5CCC9B@OfficeDesktop> These are such cool sheep! We have see our Jacobs on the side hill approach brush from the upslope side, walk up the brush, hook it with their horns and step down, pulling the branches down and stand there munching wth the branches still caught in their horns. It is a joy to have "primitive" sheep! Steve Barrows, Amazing Grace Farm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris and Tina Griffin" To: Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 5:24 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive > The knowledge of this group continues to astound me. I would have quoted > the literal Hebrew had I been home and I am so glad that multiple versions > were quoted since my original posting. Now Linda had to add some new > information that really got my juices flowing. A sheep browsing on its > hind legs, that would be interesting to see. Of all the primitive traits > that Linda brought up, our sheep exhibit all but the browsing. I wonder > if I can train them?!? > > Chris > www.griffinsark.com > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 12:15 PM > To: > Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 > >> Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to >> jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Primitive and history (Jacobflock at aol.com) >> 2. primitive vs 'back in the old days' (Linda) >> 3. [Fwd: primitive vs 'back in the old days'] (Linda) >> 4. Re: Jacob makes it as a cover model! (Linda) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:13:47 EST >> From: Jacobflock at aol.com >> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive and history >> To: nlgrose at yadtel.net >> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> I have found the article in the Encyclopedia Judaica (Biology, pp >> 1024-1028) to be of interest in telling the story of Jacob from the >> Hebrew text. >> One point the Rabbis and J Feliks (article writers) makes is that the >> Christian Bible story in English doesn't present the story as it should >> be >> understood. According to the European Christian interpretation of the >> story, the >> rods that Jacob peeled for white stripes "set over against the flocks" >> (Jacob's flock) led to the birth of "spotted" sheep. This is not a >> proper >> understanding of the Hebrew story. >> >> Jacob says to Laban, "I will pass through your flock, remove every >> speckled >> and spotted one, and every dark one among the sheep, and the spotted and >> speckled among the goats; and of such will be my hire." The population >> of >> sheep, 75% are white wooled, 25% brown spotted wool and about 75% of the >> goats are black, 25% of the goats have white or brown spots. White sheep >> and >> black goats are "monochrome", spotted sheep and goats are "spotted". >> Jacob suggested that Laban separate from the monochrome sheep all the >> spotted >> ones and take them for himself and he, Jacob, would tend only the >> monochrome >> ones. As his pay, ("and of such shall be my hire") he would keep all the >> spotted born of the monochrome sheep and goats. >> >> Laban likes the idea, assuming the monochrome sheep would not produce >> many >> if any spotted sheep and Laban takes the spotted sheep and sends them off >> with his sons into the next county. Jacob, the grifter and con man, who >> just took high school sheep tending for six years, remembers ... >> phenotype and >> genotype are different ... they were all monochrome but they were 1/3 >> homozygotes and 2/3 heterozygotes for spots. Jacob had to breed the >> heterozygotes among themselves. >> >> Then the dream. "Lift up your eyes and see all the he-goats which leap >> upon >> the flock are streaked, speckled and grizzled". The heterozygotes had >> excessive potency (hybrid vigor heterosis); the "spotted" carriers >> conceived >> earlier than the homozygotes. The "stronger" are the mekusharot, the >> "feebler" the atufim. Jacob laid the peeled rods before the mekusharot >> that they >> might conceive, but not when the flock were atufim, i.e, not before those >> that would conceive later. The atufim were Labans. >> >> The peeled rods? Jacob conned Laban by using the "superstitious" ag >> technique of the time ... breeding done in a certain environment or >> under >> certain signs resulted in god/bad offspring. >> >> The next story ... Rachel gets the mandrakes for fertility and a son. >> Whoops, Leah has the child. Those superstitions don't seem to work, >> Yaweh has >> a plan that will work. >> >> I asked a Kurdish friend about the peeled stakes; some shepherds still >> use >> them today. >> >> Fred Horak >> >> >> >> In a message dated 11/9/2009 4:04:32 A.M. Central Standard Time, >> nlgrose at yadtel.net writes: >> >> "God's Secretaries" * did a pretty good job with the Hebrew Bible, >> actually. Most of the problems with the King James Version came because >> they had a >> less accurate copy of the Greek New Testament to work with. Here is the >> verse in question in the Hebrew Bible in English ( >> _http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0130.htm_ >> (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/e/et/et0130.htm) ). I'll >> let Jews translate their own scripture. >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:16:26 -0500 >> From: Linda >> Subject: [Jacob-list] primitive vs 'back in the old days' >> To: jacob-list >> Message-ID: <4AFB53DA.5000000 at windstream.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> The discussion on primitive characteristics has been very interesting - >> and it was fun to go back to the archives and see what we all said about >> it in 2002. >> The original post from FarmGirl was in reference to what a primitive >> sheep looks like. >>> Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about >>> primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits >>> were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, >>> track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, >>> deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck >>> wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, >>> sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent >>> discussion on the list it appears we could add >>> jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to >>> the list also. >>> >> >> -- >> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:19:00 -0500 >> From: Linda >> Subject: [Jacob-list] [Fwd: primitive vs 'back in the old days'] >> To: jacob-list >> Message-ID: <4AFB5474.9060008 at windstream.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Hit send when I meant to hit save... more later >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: [Jacob-list] primitive vs 'back in the old days' >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:16:26 -0500 >> From: Linda >> To: jacob-list >> >> >> >> The discussion on primitive characteristics has been very interesting - >> and it was fun to go back to the archives and see what we all said about >> it in 2002. >> The original post from FarmGirl was in reference to what a primitive >> sheep looks like. >>> Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about >>> primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits >>> were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, >>> track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, >>> deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck >>> wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, >>> sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent >>> discussion on the list it appears we could add >>> jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to >>> the list also. >>> >> >> -- >> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> >> >> >> -- >> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:03:36 -0500 >> From: Linda >> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Jacob makes it as a cover model! >> To: gotothewhip at aol.com >> Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> Message-ID: <4AFB5EE8.9060908 at windstream.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" >> >> That's great - wonder how many people will wonder what kind of "goat" >> Turbo is :-) >> >> gotothewhip at aol.com wrote: >>> Very excited to see that onr of my rams is featured on their Ads for >>> Sopris sheep halters... I am a BIG fam of their products, and am >>> tickled that Turbo is their Cover Boy! They took this photo at Estes >>> Park Wool Market >>> >>> http://www.soprissheep.com/sheep.html >>> >>> >>> Jennifer Tucker >>> Moose Mtn Ranch >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >>> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >>> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >>> >> >> -- >> Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> >> >> End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 64, Issue 13 >> ****************************************** >> > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > From aztreaz at earthlink.net Thu Nov 12 22:25:54 2009 From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE) Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2009 19:25:54 -0800 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive Message-ID: <410-220091151332554843@earthlink.net> > A sheep browsing on its hind legs, that would be interesting to see. Of all the primitive traits that >Linda brought up, our sheep exhibit all but the browsing. I wonder if I can >train them?!? > >Chris ======== I have seen some of my wethers do this. We have an elderberry tree in their paddock, I'm surprised it is still alive after 13 years with the sheep. All the other plants in there were removed long ago. The sheep will stand on their hind legs to reach the upper leaves and perhaps the berries. I have never seen them eat the berries. The red berries of certain elderberry species are poisonous. We have the blue-colored berries. No losses of sheep from nibbling at this tree. I put a heavy gauge wire fence around the trunk to protect it. Cathy Moscow, Idaho From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Fri Nov 13 08:50:44 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 08:50:44 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive References: <4AFC9B64.7020506@windstream.net> Message-ID: <59033D659D9E4167A3A42BA99811D340@DollyLama> Well said Linda. Our Jacobs today are much better than they were years ago, as a whole. The important thing is to keep the breed primitive in their deer-like conformation and the hardy characteristics we don't see in the modern breeds. Smallness in itself does not mean primitive. JSBA has weight limits we should stay within. If smallness meant primitive the so called Mini Jacobs would be primitive, but in reality they are not even a good representative of the breed in most cases. ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda To: Chris and Tina Griffin Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 6:33 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Great Information Re:Primitive I sent that along before finishing the post. A family crisis intervened as I was writing. The quote below is not mine - it's from the archives and was written by Carl Fosbrink years ago. I was going to add that I don't think we see tracking as often as we used to. RubyBelle always reminds me of a runway model with one foot in front of the other as she walks. I am uncertain about considering shedding belly wool as a primitive trait, as I did see that in the commercial sheep I had. What I was really getting at in my half done/baked post was to wonder if we might sometimes use the word "primitive" when taking about physical attributes to refer to the way Jacobs used to be back in the organizational days of JSBA. It was not that long ago that JSBA voted to stop registering ewes that had only scurs. Were those scurred ewes "primitive"? Are manes on rams "primitive"? Kemp? There have been changes over the years over what is accepted for registration as well as what we like to see in our sheep. The original breeders that worked to establish JSBA and JSC had to travel far and wide to gather sheep to work with. I'm sure that not all the sheep they found remained in breeding flocks. Not all of the original traits - especially (for me)weak ewe horns - are what defines a Jacob (again, for me) at this point. We could argue forever on what constitutes a "primitive","real", or "the way they were back then" Jacob fleece. I love the diversity of our breed. I don't compromise on horns or hardiness, but I love having big and little sheep, dark and light sheep, and fleeces that are soft enough for next-to-the-skin projects, bouncy and crimpy enough for knitted garments, less crimpy and lustrous for wonderful woven projects, and even the coarser fleeces for rug weaving. Linda Chris and Tina Griffin wrote: The knowledge of this group continues to astound me. I would have quoted the literal Hebrew had I been home and I am so glad that multiple versions were quoted since my original posting. Now Linda had to add some new information that really got my juices flowing. A sheep browsing on its hind legs, that would be interesting to see. Of all the primitive traits that Linda brought up, our sheep exhibit all but the browsing. I wonder if I can train them?!? Chris www.griffinsark.com Awhile back there was a discussion on the list about primative traits of Jacob sheep. The following traits were listed: udder close to body, ease of lambing, track narrowly, slender legs, presence or alertness, deer shaped body, shedding of belly and sometimes neck wool, standing on rear legs to browse, good mothers, sloping croup, triangular shaped head. From the recent discussion on the list it appears we could add jumping and pronking ability and down type fleece to the list also. - Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perfectspot at bellsouth.net Sat Nov 14 14:40:15 2009 From: perfectspot at bellsouth.net (Cathy Robinson) Date: Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:40:15 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Ram for Sale Message-ID: <4AFF079E.2050804@bellsouth.net> Hillside Erasmus has completed his second breeding season here at Perfect Spot Farm and we have decided to offer him for sale-- four horns, calm in demeanor and JSBA registered (F-flock). Photo and pedigree can be viewed at: http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html We will be traveling from NC to PA in early December and could consider the possibility of transporting him at that time for delivery along our travel route. Feel free to contact me with any questions. Thanks! Cathy Robinson Perfect Spot Farm, NC From Hobsickle at aol.com Sun Nov 15 05:40:41 2009 From: Hobsickle at aol.com (Hobsickle at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 05:40:41 EST Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... Message-ID: I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. -Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Sun Nov 15 09:38:01 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 09:38:01 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... References: Message-ID: <9FC64DB818C748AB9F79AAFFFA89F121@DollyLama> Good question Dan. I am anxious to hear the replies also. Our ram, Constible, will be 12 the first of March. He may be one of the oldest rams, but I'm sure there are ewes that are much older out there. Carl in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: Hobsickle at aol.com To: Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:40 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. -Dan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gotothewhip at aol.com Sun Nov 15 11:24:43 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:24:43 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... In-Reply-To: <8CC3426C0F87016-4110-B3B4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC3426C0F87016-4110-B3B4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC342745E6A8C6-4110-B451@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> I have 2 old gals.. both are retired, fat and sassy. Both are on an equine arthritis supplement and have free run of our place. Sherak Razabeth is supposedly a 1992 model. She is from an unknown pedigree. On her papers, someone wrote DOB 1992. She delivered triplets in 2008, and raised 2 of them. Sherack Delilah is a 1994 model, verified with her DOB and pedigree. She also looks young and spry, and delivered and raised twins in 2008. Her ewe lamb is spectacular.. Grand Ewe at Estes Park! Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -----Original Message----- From: Hobsickle at aol.com To: Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 3:40 am Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. -Dan _______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Sun Nov 15 11:53:05 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 11:53:05 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... In-Reply-To: <8CC342745E6A8C6-4110-B451@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC3426C0F87016-4110-B3B4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> <8CC342745E6A8C6-4110-B451@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B0031F1.90405@windstream.net> I'm also curious as to how old your producing ewes are. RubyBelle is 14 and raised twins at 13. I'm not breeding her now, though. I've had many produce at age 10 or older. Linda gotothewhip at aol.com wrote: > > > I have 2 old gals.. both are retired, fat and sassy. Both are on an > equine arthritis supplement and have free run of our place. > > Sherak Razabeth is supposedly a 1992 model. She is from an unknown > pedigree. On her papers, someone wrote DOB 1992. She delivered > triplets in 2008, and raised 2 of them. > > Sherack Delilah is a 1994 model, verified with her DOB and pedigree. > She also looks young and spry, and delivered and raised twins in > 2008. Her ewe lamb is spectacular.. Grand Ewe at Estes Park! > > Jennifer Tucker > Moose Mtn Ranch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hobsickle at aol.com > To: Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 3:40 am > Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... > > I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got > to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. > > -Dan > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gotothewhip at aol.com Sun Nov 15 12:00:17 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 12:00:17 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... In-Reply-To: <4B0031F1.90405@windstream.net> References: <8CC3426C0F87016-4110-B3B4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> <8CC342745E6A8C6-4110-B451@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> <4B0031F1.90405@windstream.net> Message-ID: <8CC342C3DA8916C-4110-B903@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> Sherack Eve , is I believe my oldest producing ewe. she is a 2000 model. Raz and Delilah are in full retirement, but take great pleasure in taunting the rams, by rubbing their hineys against the fences. I believe I could breed Delilah without any trouble, but cant bring myself to do it. Raz's last pregnancy was a tough one, but she gave us a spectacular ewe and ram lamb.... that we are really fond of!!!!!! Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -----Original Message----- From: Linda To: gotothewhip at aol.com Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 9:53 am Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Just curious... I'm also curious as to how old your producing ewes are. RubyBelle is 14 and raised twins at 13. I'm not breeding her now, though. I've had many produce at age 10 or older. Linda gotothewhip at aol.com wrote: I have 2 old gals.. both are retired, fat and sassy. Both are on an equine arthritis supplement and have free run of our place. Sherak Razabeth is supposedly a 1992 model. She is from an unknown pedigree. On her papers, someone wrote DOB 1992. She delivered triplets in 2008, and raised 2 of them. Sherack Delilah is a 1994 model, verified with her DOB and pedigree. She also looks young and spry, and delivered and raised twins in 2008. Her ewe lamb is spectacular.. Grand Ewe at Estes Park! Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -----Original Message----- From: Hobsickle at aol.com To: Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 3:40 am Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. -Dan _______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list ______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perfectspot at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 15 13:08:54 2009 From: perfectspot at bellsouth.net (Cathy Robinson) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 13:08:54 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... Message-ID: <4B0043B6.9030500@bellsouth.net> I sent this to the list over 2 1/2 hours ago and it hasn't shown up yet. Forgive me if it shows up twice, but will send it on again.... Seems like I have been talking about our amazing (and old!) Lady Jane for years now. I thought she was _old_ five years ago, and just like that Energizer Bunny, she keeps on going, and is still with us! Jane is a Bissell ewe (Yakob-Tson) and we figure she was born about 1985; I actually have a photo of her taken about 1987-88 as a young adult at one of her early homes. Including Jane herself, we now have four generations represented here as of this year....Jane, Jasmine (2002), Josephine (2007) and Joselyn (2009). I am sure our climate here in NC has aided in her longevity. While the the heat of our summers are not easy for her, our winters are mild in comparison to the brutal winter temperatures of northern regions. Jane probably would not have made it through this many winters had she lived in a less favorable winter climate. In recent years her wool has become less dense and it is increasingly difficult for her to maintain her weight. Cathy Perfect Spot Farm http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html Hobsickle at aol.com wrote: > I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got > to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. > > -Dan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gotothewhip at aol.com Sun Nov 15 15:30:07 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:30:07 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... In-Reply-To: <4B0043B6.9030500@bellsouth.net> References: <4B0043B6.9030500@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <8CC34498DF45723-4110-E119@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com> That is AMAZING.. kudos to you for taking such good care of her that she has hung around for so long! For THose that Asked.. There are several horsey joint helpers out there..... I like MSM, Glucosamine, Condrotin and Ester C in a mix. I am currently feeding "Oxy-Gen Exteme" Mostly becasue I get it as they are one of my barrel Racing Sponsors. It is a flaxseed based with no added copper... I am happy with it. Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -----Original Message----- From: Cathy Robinson To: Jacob-list Sent: Sun, Nov 15, 2009 11:08 am Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Just curious... I sent this to the list over 2 1/2 hours ago and it hasn't shown up yet. Forgive me if it shows up twice, but will send it on again.... Seems like I have been talking about our amazing (and old!) Lady Jane for years now. I thought she was old five years ago, and just like that Energizer Bunny, she keeps on going, and is still with us! Jane is a Bissell ewe (Yakob-Tson) and we figure she was born about 1985; I actually have a photo of her taken about 1987-88 as a young adult at one of her early homes. Including Jane herself, we now have four generations represented here as of this year....Jane, Jasmine (2002), Josephine (2007) and Joselyn (2009). I am sure our climate here in NC has aided in her longevity. While the the heat of our summers are not easy for her, our winters are mild in comparison to the brutal winter temperatures of northern regions. Jane probably would not have made it through this many winters had she lived in a less favorable winter climate. In recent years her wool has become less dense and it is increasingly difficult for her to maintain her weight. Cathy Perfect Spot Farm http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html Hobsickle at aol.com wrote: I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. -Dan _______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From melanie.boxall at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 15 15:48:27 2009 From: melanie.boxall at sympatico.ca (Melanie Boxall) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 15:48:27 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... In-Reply-To: <9FC64DB818C748AB9F79AAFFFA89F121@DollyLama> References: <9FC64DB818C748AB9F79AAFFFA89F121@DollyLama> Message-ID: Our oldest ewe, who was 13, died in her sleep one night this summer. She gave us twins just last year. Melanie "Not all who wander are lost." ----- Original Message ----- From: fourhornfarm To: Hobsickle at aol.com ; Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 9:38 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Just curious... Good question Dan. I am anxious to hear the replies also. Our ram, Constible, will be 12 the first of March. He may be one of the oldest rams, but I'm sure there are ewes that are much older out there. Carl in Indiana ----- Original Message ----- From: Hobsickle at aol.com To: Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 5:40 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious... I was just sitting around thinking of Jacob Sheep's longevity and got to wondering what the ages of the oldest currently living Jacobs might be. -Dan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aztreaz at earthlink.net Sun Nov 15 22:08:06 2009 From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE) Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 19:08:06 -0800 Subject: [Jacob-list] Just curious Message-ID: <410-2200911116386281@earthlink.net> --Carl wrote: >Good question Dan. I am anxious to hear the replies also. Our ram, Constible, will be 12 the first of March. He may be one of the oldest rams, but I'm sure there are >ewes that are much older out there. > >Carl in Indiana =========== My older ram, Ramington Steele, died last winter at age 13. I had him sheared the previous spring... big mistake! His wool never grew back very thick, a sure sign of old age. I think he was cold and fell over dead one night. I should've put a coat on him, I should've never had him sheared or I should've had him put down before the cold temperatures started. I now have a rather weak 13-yr old ewe that I didn't have sheared last spring so she is going into the winter with a thick fleece. She was cold last year during a brief time when the temperatures were below zero. I really should have her put down. Hard to do when one has had them for so long, plus she was one of my first ewes. Cathy Moscow, Idaho From gothorses at gotsky.com Mon Nov 16 12:05:22 2009 From: gothorses at gotsky.com (Miranda Tanis) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:05:22 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [Jacob-list] curiosity got to me Message-ID: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> Are Jacob sheep out of season breeders? People say that white face sheep our out of season breeders, but I haven't found anything on patterned faces. This website has been very helpful, especially to a new shepherd. M.T. From gotothewhip at aol.com Mon Nov 16 13:23:31 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 13:23:31 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] curiosity got to me In-Reply-To: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> References: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> Message-ID: <8CC350108C78034-21AC-7008@webmail-d014.sysops.aol.com> We have a ewe that was born in November, (she is on the JSBA pedigree search Sherack Speckles ) and have had a few lamb in June and July. We have not allowed ours to breed out of season with the exception of those instaces....In fact, one of the ewes that lambed in July, was actually bred while in the trailer... We know this, as she was with the ewes when we bought her, but we couldn't separate the rams during transport.. and upon arrival, the ewes were separated of.. Low and behold, she lambed in July ( we bought them in Feb) Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -----Original Message----- From: Miranda Tanis To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Mon, Nov 16, 2009 10:05 am Subject: [Jacob-list] curiosity got to me Are Jacob sheep out of season breeders? People say that white face sheep ur out of season breeders, but I haven't found anything on patterned aces. This website has been very helpful, especially to a new shepherd. M.T. _______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourwinds at gotsky.com Mon Nov 16 15:35:40 2009 From: fourwinds at gotsky.com (Lorraine Nielsen) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:35:40 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [Jacob-list] curiosity got to me In-Reply-To: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> References: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> Message-ID: <54131.70.41.228.6.1258403740.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> Jacobs are indeed out-of-season breeders. We are in the mountains of California and get a fair amount of snow. Since we don't have a pressing reason to lamb early, we breed in December to have May lambs, when it's warmer. Our first year, we lambed in June. We now have two rams and are about to put one ram in with a group in about a week, and the other not until mid-December. We've found that it's comfortable for the mothers (and for us!) to lamb in nice weather. Lorraine Four Winds Farm > Are Jacob sheep out of season breeders? People say that white face sheep > our out of season breeders, but I haven't found anything on patterned > faces. This website has been very helpful, especially to a new shepherd. > > M.T. > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Mon Nov 16 16:00:46 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:00:46 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] curiosity got to me In-Reply-To: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> References: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> Message-ID: <4B01BD7E.2020606@windstream.net> Curiosity got to me, too --- what do you consider "out of season"? Jacobs were once considered to be seasonal breeders, but we do hear of them being born most months and sometimes lambing twice in one year. Linda Miranda Tanis wrote: > Are Jacob sheep out of season breeders? People say that white face sheep > our out of season breeders, but I haven't found anything on patterned > faces. This website has been very helpful, especially to a new shepherd. > > M.T. > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Mon Nov 16 22:17:01 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:17:01 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs Message-ID: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama> Here is another question I have been wondering about. What do those who raise registered modern breeds of sheep get for their breeding stock as opposed to what we get for our Jacob breeding stock? Carl in Indiana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Mon Nov 16 22:34:04 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Mon, 16 Nov 2009 22:34:04 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] curiosity got to me References: <60321.75.107.186.54.1258391122.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> <54131.70.41.228.6.1258403740.squirrel@admintool.trueband.net> Message-ID: <2A49053E47B24B87A1B0B7B601B7ED6D@DollyLama> I have had Jacobs lamb in January and again in August, but only rarely and it has always been ewes that lambed in early January with their first lambs. It has been my experience that unbred ewes will breed later in the season if not exposed to a ram earlier in the season. I would think different areas of the country would have slightly different breeding seasons also. I don't consider Jacobs to be a breed that will produce two lamb crops a year like some breeds. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lorraine Nielsen" To: Cc: Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] curiosity got to me > Jacobs are indeed out-of-season breeders. We are in the mountains of > California and get a fair amount of snow. Since we don't have a pressing > reason to lamb early, we breed in December to have May lambs, when it's > warmer. Our first year, we lambed in June. We now have two rams and are > about to put one ram in with a group in about a week, and the other not > until mid-December. We've found that it's comfortable for the mothers (and > for us!) to lamb in nice weather. > > Lorraine > Four Winds Farm > >> Are Jacob sheep out of season breeders? People say that white face sheep >> our out of season breeders, but I haven't found anything on patterned >> faces. This website has been very helpful, especially to a new shepherd. >> >> M.T. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >> Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > From lambfarm at sover.net Tue Nov 17 06:05:22 2009 From: lambfarm at sover.net (Betty Berlenbach) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 06:05:22 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama> Message-ID: <002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF> I have a friend who raises coopworths, and I just paid $250 each for two lambs, unregistered! She gets $500 and up for registered sheep. Two years ago, it was $150 for unregistered. When I had shetlands (from 96-03) registered lambs were $500, others from $600-$1200, in New England, though they were much less in the rest of the country. The bottom fell out in about 2004 (I got out just in time) and now they are going for $250 or so, registered, when you can sell them; New England is flooded with them, so the competition is fierce. Around here, registered romneys seem to go for about $200-$300 depending on the sheep. Haven't checked out many other breeds. Oh, 10 years ago I bought four navajo churro wethers for between $50 and $150 a piece. I think a lot depends on the part of the country you are in and the particular time; some sheep enjoy "fad" status for awhile and are very expensive mostly because of the rarity, and then things stabilize and they are priced according to their merits. A plain ol' crossbred ewe lamb or wether, by comparison, goes for about $100. By the way, I generally get $250 for a registerable ewe or ram lamb, $100 for unregistered wether. I try not to sell unregistered or unregisterable fertile sheep, for I think it lowers the market for the rest of us to do so, as they are bred, and the owners then sell their lambs for what they paid for the parents... ----- Original Message ----- From: fourhornfarm To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:17 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs Here is another question I have been wondering about. What do those who raise registered modern breeds of sheep get for their breeding stock as opposed to what we get for our Jacob breeding stock? Carl in Indiana ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Tue Nov 17 09:21:01 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:21:01 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama> <002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF> Message-ID: Thanks Betty. Anyone know about Suffolks, Dorsets, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Berlenbach To: fourhornfarm Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Jacobs I have a friend who raises coopworths, and I just paid $250 each for two lambs, unregistered! She gets $500 and up for registered sheep. Two years ago, it was $150 for unregistered. When I had shetlands (from 96-03) registered lambs were $500, others from $600-$1200, in New England, though they were much less in the rest of the country. The bottom fell out in about 2004 (I got out just in time) and now they are going for $250 or so, registered, when you can sell them; New England is flooded with them, so the competition is fierce. Around here, registered romneys seem to go for about $200-$300 depending on the sheep. Haven't checked out many other breeds. Oh, 10 years ago I bought four navajo churro wethers for between $50 and $150 a piece. I think a lot depends on the part of the country you are in and the particular time; some sheep enjoy "fad" status for awhile and are very expensive mostly because of the rarity, and then things stabilize and they are priced according to their merits. A plain ol' crossbred ewe lamb or wether, by comparison, goes for about $100. By the way, I generally get $250 for a registerable ewe or ram lamb, $100 for unregistered wether. I try not to sell unregistered or unregisterable fertile sheep, for I think it lowers the market for the rest of us to do so, as they are bred, and the owners then sell their lambs for what they paid for the parents... ----- Original Message ----- From: fourhornfarm To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:17 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs Here is another question I have been wondering about. What do those who raise registered modern breeds of sheep get for their breeding stock as opposed to what we get for our Jacob breeding stock? Carl in Indiana ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gotothewhip at aol.com Tue Nov 17 09:35:34 2009 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 09:35:34 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs In-Reply-To: References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF> Message-ID: <8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com> Their market is very flexible. And a good bit of the animals value depends on where you live and what your market is! Breeding stock of most commercial breeds is truly specialized. I would say, in the South west and a good bit of the Central US... The Club Lamb market is the basis. Realizing that as a weather sire.. the ewe (and ram) value is in producing lambs either wethers or Ewes that will meat the terminal markets of the Market lamb for the showring. I have commonly see ewes that fit this niche sell from $200 to $1000 and up. I know that is a big swing, but the value on these brood ewes is in their potential to produce terminal lambs. But Prospect lambs (for the Jr Market Lambs) can bring well over $200 as little bittty un weaned lambs, as the buyer thinks they have the potential to win at a show... and with a winning lamb bringing a few hundred to tens of thousands of dollars at a Jr Livestock Sale as a Champion, it is a gamble many are willing to make! I have also been around a good deal of Columbias, Ramboullets and Corriedales... More of the Dual (Meat/Wool) purpose. A god friend drove up here from WAY south Texas (Sanderson, TX) to pick up two ewe lambs ($300 each) so her daughter can have some improved wool quality in her ewe flock. She will show these ewes as well, but a different market that the Club Lamb I guess! A neighboring ranch runs Columbias, and they commonly give $200 to $500 for a GOOD ewe, with showring potential.... They show fleeces as well. I don't think values have changed a whole lot over the years. In the 80s and 90s I had Border Cheviots... and usually paid $200 each for nice ewes to build my flock. Another thing to keep in mind is salvage value... Most of the older ewes, or cull ewes bring $25-50 each. Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch -----Original Message----- From: fourhornfarm To: Betty Berlenbach Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tue, Nov 17, 2009 7:21 am Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Jacobs Thanks Betty. Anyone know about Suffolks, Dorsets, etc. ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Berlenbach To: fourhornfarm Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 6:05 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Jacobs I have a friend who raises coopworths, and I just paid $250 each for two lambs, unregistered! She gets $500 and up for registered sheep. Two years ago, it was $150 for unregistered. When I had shetlands (from 96-03) registered lambs were $500, others from $600-$1200, in New England, though they were much less in the rest of the country. The bottom fell out in about 2004 (I got out just in time) and now they are going for $250 or so, registered, when you can sell them; New England is flooded with them, so the competition is fierce. Around here, registered romneys seem to go for about $200-$300 depending on the sheep. Haven't checked out many other breeds. Oh, 10 years ago I bought four navajo churro wethers for between $50 and $150 a piece. I think a lot depends on the part of the country you are in and the particular time; some sheep enjoy "fad" status for awhile and are very expensive mostly because of the rarity, and then things stabilize and they are priced according to their merits. A plain ol' crossbred ewe lamb or wether, by comparison, goes for about $100. By the way, I generally get $250 for a registerable ewe or ram lamb, $100 for unregistered wether. I try not to sell unregistered or unregisterable fertile sheep, for I think it lowers the market for the rest of us to do so, as they are bred, and the owners then sell their lambs for what they paid for the parents... ----- Original Message ----- From: fourhornfarm To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Monday, November 16, 2009 10:17 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs Here is another question I have been wondering about. What do those who raise registered modern breeds of sheep get for their breeding stock as opposed to what we get for our Jacob breeding stock? Carl in Indiana _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list _______________________________________________ acob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks acob-list at jacobsheep.com ttp://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us Tue Nov 17 11:16:24 2009 From: hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us (hobbyknobfarm) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 11:16:24 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] primitive/hind legs Message-ID: <6999FE1915164ED9B8D9AAD7185257C3@daron1> I think some of this interesting info would be good for the newsletter. There have to be many new Jacob owners that might benefit from some of this "primitive" discussion. I just use small body type, deer like legs and triangular face, but then I am fairly new in the Jacob breeding arena and primarily appreciate them for smallness and character. Speaking of which, I have a ewe that begs for her food on her hind legs. She was bottle fed a little as a lamb and is friendlier than the rest. Maybe some day I will get a picture and figure out how to post. It is cute until she comes up behind me tries to get the bucket out of my hand. Not sure if she browses like that though, most of my browse is too high for her. Elizabeth www.hobbyknobfarm.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katherine1958 at gmail.com Tue Nov 17 12:09:38 2009 From: katherine1958 at gmail.com (Katherine Williamson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 12:09:38 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] halter training Message-ID: <2733bb450911170909l6c25fe60qcc1f88e405b8876d@mail.gmail.com> I have been asked to provide sheep for a live nativity. I've done this in the past with a ram and a ewe (both on halters), but this year I think I'll take lambs. I have about 3 weeks to halter break the lambs. I've never been very confident in my halter breaking techniques, which seem to involve a lot of jumping (the sheep), cursing (my husband), and fear (me). I usually hold them to attach the halter, then tie them to a post and let them pull and flail until they're worn out. Or my husband and kids will pull and prod and attempt to walk them around the backyard. I'm so afraid that someone is going to get hurt. Would you share your halter breaking techniques with me? Thanks! Kathey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rlynde at onramp113.org Tue Nov 17 17:38:15 2009 From: rlynde at onramp113.org (Robin Lynde) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 14:38:15 -0800 Subject: [Jacob-list] halter training References: <2733bb450911170909l6c25fe60qcc1f88e405b8876d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <70E290EEE1ED4065B2F2BF74211B6628@your4dacd0ea75> The first lesson is getting used to the halter and being tied. I like to use a web halter instead of the rope ones because the rope tightens when the lamb pulls back and stays tight. That doesn't happen with a halter made of nylon webbing. I tie the lamb to a fence with the tie at about the height of the lamb's head. I don't make the rope very long because I don't want the lamb to be able to thrash about and get tangled up or fall over. It will pull back, but that should be all it can do. I also stay near by because I don't want the rope getting tangled in the horns. That is Day 1--only about 10 minutes. Repeat that for Day 2. The next step is to halter the lamb and walk around a small pen. You won't actually walk much because the lamb will still try to pull back and jump. I think that the key is to know when to keep the rope taut and when to allow slack. With experience you can feel the lamb pull and know that if you keep the rope taut the lamb will fall over, but if you release the tension at the right moment and just the right amount the lamb will get it's legs under it and remain standing. That would be your goal. You don't want to be dragging the lamb around. You want the lamb to learn that: 1. it can't get away from the halter 2. if it gives to the pressure of the halter it won't fall over and the halter won't be so tight on its head. I usually take a week or two to work with my lambs before the fair. I try to find time to halter them each day--keep them tied while I'm doing chores and then take each one around a pen a time or two. I won't say that they all become well halter-broke, but after the first couple of days at least they aren't in a panic over it. I also have a relatively calm flock and I think that makes a difference. Not all my sheep are pets by any means or even willing to be handled, but if all 65+ are lying down and I walk into the barn at night, they don't get up. They are used to being handled in a calm manner and not chased around a pen. If you have to catch the lambs by chasing them for 10 minutes then they are not going to be able to understand a halter breaking lesson. The key is to have fences and panels available to move them calmly into smaller spaces so that you can grab a lamb without it having the first lesson that "people chase me". Robin Lynde Meridian Jacobs Vacaville, CA www.meridianjacobs.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Katherine Williamson To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:09 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] halter training I have been asked to provide sheep for a live nativity. I've done this in the past with a ram and a ewe (both on halters), but this year I think I'll take lambs. I have about 3 weeks to halter break the lambs. I've never been very confident in my halter breaking techniques, which seem to involve a lot of jumping (the sheep), cursing (my husband), and fear (me). I usually hold them to attach the halter, then tie them to a post and let them pull and flail until they're worn out. Or my husband and kids will pull and prod and attempt to walk them around the backyard. I'm so afraid that someone is going to get hurt. Would you share your halter breaking techniques with me? Thanks! Kathey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kenleighacres at yahoo.com Tue Nov 17 18:45:54 2009 From: kenleighacres at yahoo.com (Shannon Phifer) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:45:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Jacob-list] halter training In-Reply-To: <70E290EEE1ED4065B2F2BF74211B6628@your4dacd0ea75> References: <2733bb450911170909l6c25fe60qcc1f88e405b8876d@mail.gmail.com> <70E290EEE1ED4065B2F2BF74211B6628@your4dacd0ea75> Message-ID: <823295.81787.qm@web51012.mail.re2.yahoo.com> This is how we do our halter breaking as well.? The other thing?I do, which I find extremely helpful, is to have a very well broke older sheep to use as the leader when you are walking the lambs for the first couple of times.??It acts as a calming effect for the lambs and they learn to walk forward a lot faster.??Every year is different and sometimes it is more difficult than others.? My experience is that some lambs don't take much work at all and others never become very halter broke.? We don't show with halters on, but it is very nice for moving them from the trailer into the barn and from their pens to the show ring.? ? Shannon Phifer Kenleigh Acres Farm www.kenleigh-acres.com That'll Do Photography www.thatlldo.photoreflect.com ? ________________________________ From: Robin Lynde To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 2:38:15 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] halter training The first lesson is getting used to the halter and being tied. I like to use a web halter instead of the rope ones because the rope tightens when the lamb pulls back and stays tight. That doesn't happen with a halter made of nylon webbing. I tie the lamb to a fencewith the tie at about the height of the lamb's head. I don't make the rope very long because I don't want the lamb?to be able to thrash about and get tangled up or fall over.?It will pull back, but that should be all it can do. I also stay near by because I don't want the rope getting tangled in the horns. That is Day 1--only about 10 minutes.?Repeat that for Day 2. ? The next step is to halter the lamb and walk around a small pen. You won't actually walk much because the lamb will still try to pull back and jump. I think that the key is to know when to keep the rope taut and when to allow slack. With experience you can feel the lamb pull and know that if you keep the rope taut the lamb will fall over, but if you release the tension at the right moment and just the right amount the lamb will get it's legs under it and remain standing. That would be your goal. You don't want to be dragging the lamb around. You want the lamb to learn that: 1. it can't get away from the halter 2. if it gives to the pressure of the halter it won't fall over and the halter won't be so tight on its head. ? I usually take a week or two to work with my lambs before the fair. I try to find time to halter them each day--keep them tied while I'm doing chores and then take each one around a pen a time or two. I won't say that they all become well halter-broke, but after the first couple of days at least they aren't in a panic over it. ? I also have a relatively calm flock and I think that makes a difference. Not all my sheep are pets by any means or even willing to be handled, but if all 65+ are lying down and I walk into the barn at night, they don't get up. They are used to being handled in a calm manner and not chased around a pen. If you have to catch the lambs by chasing them for 10 minutes then they are not going to be able to understand a halter breaking lesson. The key is to have fences and panels available to move them calmly into smaller spaces so that you can grab a lamb without it having the first lesson that "people chase me". Robin Lynde Meridian Jacobs Vacaville, CA www.meridianjacobs.com ----- Original Message ----- >From: Katherine Williamson >To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:09 AM >Subject: [Jacob-list] halter training > >I have been asked to provide sheep for a live nativity.? I've done this in the past with a ram and a ewe (both on halters), but this year I think I'll take lambs.? I have about 3 weeks to halter break the lambs. > >I've never been very confident in my halter breaking techniques, which seem to involve a lot of jumping (the sheep), cursing (my husband), and fear (me).? I usually hold them to attach the halter, then tie them to a post and let them pull and flail until they're worn out.? Or my husband and kids will pull and prod and attempt to walk them around the backyard.? I'm so afraid that someone is going to get hurt.? > >Would you share your halter breaking techniques with me?? > >Thanks! > >Kathey > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ >Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks >Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perfectspot at bellsouth.net Tue Nov 17 19:30:05 2009 From: perfectspot at bellsouth.net (Cathy Robinson) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:30:05 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs In-Reply-To: <8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com> References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF> <8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net> I didn't go looking for this at work today (at the library), but happened upon this story which ties right in with Carl's question about sale prices for sheep. Here's a story about the world's most expensive sheep.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/north_east/8226054.stm I had not seen it before today but perhaps some of you have already, as the story was released about two months ago. I much prefer my Jacobs!! Cathy Perfect Spot Farm http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html > *Here is another question I have been wondering about. What do > those who raise registered modern breeds of sheep get for > their breeding stock as opposed to what we get for our Jacob > breeding stock?* > ** > *Carl in Indiana* > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snielsen1 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 17 19:56:29 2009 From: snielsen1 at earthlink.net (Susan Nielsen) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 16:56:29 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs Message-ID: <4239494.1258505789551.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Tue Nov 17 21:10:15 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:10:15 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF> <8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com> <4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama> I much prefer Jacobs too Cathy. If I remember correctly the ram I read about was bought for $5,000.00 and lived to 6 yr. ----- Original Message ----- From: Cathy Robinson To: fourhornfarm at verizon.net Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Jacobs I didn't go looking for this at work today (at the library), but happened upon this story which ties right in with Carl's question about sale prices for sheep. Here's a story about the world's most expensive sheep.... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/north_east/8226054.stm I had not seen it before today but perhaps some of you have already, as the story was released about two months ago. I much prefer my Jacobs!! Cathy Perfect Spot Farm http://www.perfectspot-farm.com/index.html Here is another question I have been wondering about. What do those who raise registered modern breeds of sheep get for their breeding stock as opposed to what we get for our Jacob breeding stock? Carl in Indiana -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westergladstone at btinternet.com Wed Nov 18 06:59:14 2009 From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (BlackSheep) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:59:14 -0000 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net> <0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama> Message-ID: <31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox> As far as primitive characteristics go, someone on this side of the pond summed it up well I thought when she wrote -: I suppose in summary, most likely to survive without man! Juliet in wet Scotland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Wed Nov 18 11:44:34 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:44:34 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net><0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama> <31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox> Message-ID: MOST LIKELY TO SURVIVE WITHOUT MAN is a very good description of a primitive sheep. My ram, Chicory Lane Chaucer's sire was from a flock that survived without man's interference and he does not allow anything around his ewes, other than a human. He always keeps his distance from humans, but will butt any other animal that gets around his ewes or lambs and even goes over next to the fence if anything is close to the other side so he can butt it if it gets against or through the fence. He is a real protector. Who needs a guard animal with a ram like him? He is a guard animal. I love his primitiveness. ----- Original Message ----- From: BlackSheep To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:59 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics As far as primitive characteristics go, someone on this side of the pond summed it up well I thought when she wrote -: I suppose in summary, most likely to survive without man! Juliet in wet Scotland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Wed Nov 18 17:59:34 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:59:34 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] halter training In-Reply-To: <70E290EEE1ED4065B2F2BF74211B6628@your4dacd0ea75> References: <2733bb450911170909l6c25fe60qcc1f88e405b8876d@mail.gmail.com> <70E290EEE1ED4065B2F2BF74211B6628@your4dacd0ea75> Message-ID: <4B047C56.8010101@windstream.net> I don't like the rope halters either. If I do tie the sheep, I don't leave them unattended. I worry about injuries and hanging around seems like a good idea. I don't show much (once :-)), but I have found that I like my rams to be halter broken. Since I only halter brake (oops, break) a few a year, I just stand there and hold them instead of tying them. It's a fairly easy process that requires calm and patience, but doesn't really take much time. Moving sheep calmly into smaller spaces definitely is the way to go. Unless you are really fas (I'm not), once you start chasing a sheep, you might as well give up. Linda Robin Lynde wrote: > The first lesson is getting used to the halter and being tied. I like > to use a web halter instead of the rope ones because the rope tightens > when the lamb pulls back and stays tight. That doesn't happen with a > halter made of nylon webbing. I tie the lamb to a fence with the tie > at about the height of the lamb's head. I don't make the rope very > long because I don't want the lamb to be able to thrash about and get > tangled up or fall over. It will pull back, but that should be all it > can do. I also stay near by because I don't want the rope getting > tangled in the horns. That is Day 1--only about 10 minutes. Repeat > that for Day 2. > > The next step is to halter the lamb and walk around a small pen. You > won't actually walk much because the lamb will still try to pull back > and jump. I think that the key is to know when to keep the rope taut > and when to allow slack. With experience you can feel the lamb pull > and know that if you keep the rope taut the lamb will fall over, but > if you release the tension at the right moment and just the right > amount the lamb will get it's legs under it and remain standing. That > would be your goal. You don't want to be dragging the lamb around. You > want the lamb to learn that: > 1. it can't get away from the halter > 2. if it gives to the pressure of the halter it won't fall over and > the halter won't be so tight on its head. > > I usually take a week or two to work with my lambs before the fair. I > try to find time to halter them each day--keep them tied while I'm > doing chores and then take each one around a pen a time or two. I > won't say that they all become well halter-broke, but after the first > couple of days at least they aren't in a panic over it. > > I also have a relatively calm flock and I think that makes a > difference. Not all my sheep are pets by any means or even willing to > be handled, but if all 65+ are lying down and I walk into the barn at > night, they don't get up. They are used to being handled in a calm > manner and not chased around a pen. If you have to catch the lambs by > chasing them for 10 minutes then they are not going to be able to > understand a halter breaking lesson. The key is to have fences and > panels available to move them calmly into smaller spaces so that you > can grab a lamb without it having the first lesson that "people chase me". > > Robin Lynde > Meridian Jacobs > Vacaville, CA > www.meridianjacobs.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Katherine Williamson > *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 17, 2009 9:09 AM > *Subject:* [Jacob-list] halter training > > I have been asked to provide sheep for a live nativity. I've done > this in the past with a ram and a ewe (both on halters), but this > year I think I'll take lambs. I have about 3 weeks to halter > break the lambs. > > I've never been very confident in my halter breaking techniques, > which seem to involve a lot of jumping (the sheep), cursing (my > husband), and fear (me). I usually hold them to attach the > halter, then tie them to a post and let them pull and flail until > they're worn out. Or my husband and kids will pull and prod and > attempt to walk them around the backyard. I'm so afraid that > someone is going to get hurt. > > Would you share your halter breaking techniques with me? > > Thanks! > > Kathey > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Wed Nov 18 18:28:14 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:28:14 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics In-Reply-To: References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net><0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama> <31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox> Message-ID: <4B04830E.7010001@windstream.net> That would sure make the Huntsberger flock primitive, after living for so many years on an uninhabited island off the coast of Maine. What sort of behavior is primitive? Like most people, I don't much care for a ram that tears the fence down to get to ewes, but isn't that what you would see in a wild flock? I want a ram that is easy for me to handle - but is that primitive behavior? On the same vein, what is a primitive fleece? Is there a primitive fleece? I think Soays are considered among the most primitive of sheep (Neal - jump in here and correct me). We sure wouldn't accept a Soay fleece in JSBA. Linda fourhornfarm wrote: > MOST LIKELY TO SURVIVE WITHOUT MAN is a very good description of a > primitive sheep. > > My ram, Chicory Lane Chaucer's sire was from a flock that survived > without man's interference and he does not allow anything around his > ewes, other than a human. He always keeps his distance from humans, > but will butt any other animal that gets around his ewes or lambs and > even goes over next to the fence if anything is close to the other > side so he can butt it if it gets against or through the fence. He is > a real protector. Who needs a guard animal with a ram like him? He is > a guard animal. I love his primitiveness. > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* BlackSheep > *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:59 AM > *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics > > As far as primitive characteristics go, someone on this side of > the pond summed it up well I thought when she wrote -: I suppose in > summary, most likely to survive without man! > Juliet in wet Scotland > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Wed Nov 18 18:52:54 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 18:52:54 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net><0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama><31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox> <4B04830E.7010001@windstream.net> Message-ID: <14E4D9EEC4544E96A501649478263BD3@DollyLama> ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda To: fourhornfarm Cc: BlackSheep ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics That would sure make the Huntsberger flock primitive, after living for so many years on an uninhabited island off the coast of Maine.That definition would sure make them primitive, but the look of the flock after several years would depend a great deal on what looks the original sheep had that were isolated there so maybe, most likely to survive without man, alone should not make up the definition of primitive. What sort of behavior is primitive? Like most people, I don't much care for a ram that tears the fence down to get to ewes, but isn't that what you would see in a wild flock? Possibly, but they probably don't have fences for a wild flock.I want a ram that is easy for me to handle - but is that primitive behavior? I doubt it, but that depends on what you mean by handle. If you mean halter and lead, probably not. On the same vein, what is a primitive fleece? Is there a primitive fleece? I think Soays are considered among the most primitive of sheep (Neal - jump in here and correct me). We sure wouldn't accept a Soay fleece in JSBA.IMHO a primitive fleece would be the type of fleece the breed had originally. Linda fourhornfarm wrote: MOST LIKELY TO SURVIVE WITHOUT MAN is a very good description of a primitive sheep. My ram, Chicory Lane Chaucer's sire was from a flock that survived without man's interference and he does not allow anything around his ewes, other than a human. He always keeps his distance from humans, but will butt any other animal that gets around his ewes or lambs and even goes over next to the fence if anything is close to the other side so he can butt it if it gets against or through the fence. He is a real protector. Who needs a guard animal with a ram like him? He is a guard animal. I love his primitiveness. ----- Original Message ----- From: BlackSheep To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:59 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics As far as primitive characteristics go, someone on this side of the pond summed it up well I thought when she wrote -: I suppose in summary, most likely to survive without man! Juliet in wet Scotland -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at windstream.net Wed Nov 18 19:29:19 2009 From: patchworkfibers at windstream.net (Linda) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 19:29:19 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics In-Reply-To: <14E4D9EEC4544E96A501649478263BD3@DollyLama> References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net><0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama><31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox> <4B04830E.7010001@windstream.net> <14E4D9EEC4544E96A501649478263BD3@DollyLama> Message-ID: <4B04915F.9030606@windstream.net> fourhornfarm wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Linda > *To:* fourhornfarm > *Cc:* BlackSheep ; > jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:28 PM > *Subject:* Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics > > That would sure make the Huntsberger flock primitive, after living > for so many years on an uninhabited island off the coast of > Maine.That definition would sure make them primitive, but the look > of the flock after several years would depend a great deal on > what looks the original sheep had that were isolated there so > maybe, most likely to survive without man, alone should not make > up the definition of primitive. *No one trait seems to define > primitive. It would sure be interesting to see what traits we'd > get if we just tossed a couple of rams and a dozen ewes together > and left them alone for 15 years.* > > > What sort of behavior is primitive? Like most people, I don't much > care for a ram that tears the fence down to get to ewes, but isn't > that what you would see in a wild flock? Possibly, but they > probably don't have fences for a wild flock.I want a ram that is > easy for me to handle - but is that primitive behavior? I doubt > it, but that depends on what you mean by handle. If you mean > halter and lead, probably not. *Okay - no fences in the wild :-). > I personally don't think that a ram lamb that I can halter break > should not be considered primitive as opposed to one that is so > nutso that I can't handle him. Adaptability might just be a > primitive trait as might be t**he ability to learn. **I have had > and will probably have again rams that charged me and were a PIA > to handle. But, as a 61 year old woman who needs to be able to > handle my rams by myself if needed, it is easier for me to start > when they weigh less than I do. If they are too stupid to learn, > they may be too stupid to survive in the wild :-)* > > > On the same vein, what is a primitive fleece? Is there a primitive > fleece? I think Soays are considered among the most primitive of > sheep (Neal - jump in here and correct me). We sure wouldn't > accept a Soay fleece in JSBA.IMHO a primitive fleece would be the > type of fleece the breed had originally. *In our area, we had > sheep from the AMBC auction, which Neal knows about. Sheep from > Fairview and Frogmoor in the JG flock in SC. As well as a number > of ewes with Puddleduck, Craft's, Spahr Farm, and Hardy Hill > backgrounds. The variance in the fleeces was all across the board. > I was a spinner before I had Jacobs and I do know fleeces. Which > type was the original type?* > > Linda > > fourhornfarm wrote: >> MOST LIKELY TO SURVIVE WITHOUT MAN is a very good description of >> a primitive sheep. >> >> My ram, Chicory Lane Chaucer's sire was from a flock that >> survived without man's interference and he does not allow >> anything around his ewes, other than a human. He always keeps his >> distance from humans, but will butt any other animal that gets >> around his ewes or lambs and even goes over next to the fence if >> anything is close to the other side so he can butt it if it gets >> against or through the fence. He is a real protector. Who needs a >> guard animal with a ram like him? He is a guard animal. I love >> his primitiveness. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> *From:* BlackSheep >> *To:* jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:59 AM >> *Subject:* [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics >> >> As far as primitive characteristics go, someone on this side >> of the pond summed it up well I thought when she wrote -: I >> suppose in >> summary, most likely to survive without man! >> Juliet in wet Scotland >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> > > -- > Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep > -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nlgrose at yadtel.net Wed Nov 18 20:24:05 2009 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 20:24:05 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net><0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama><31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox><4B04830E.7010001@windstream.net> <14E4D9EEC4544E96A501649478263BD3@DollyLama> Message-ID: <61994D21C56B42B39DB64A897F18C345@HAL2> Strictly speaking, a primitive fleece would be one that sheds...which we don't want. Double fleece would also be primitive and is not desirable. There is also no particular reason that non-primitive characteristics would not be conserved if they did not interfere with survival. It would take many generations for a domestic breed to actually return to "wild" characteristics. Sooo...what we want is somewhat primitive? I go back to thinking that the primitive we want is those characteristics that preserve the functionality of the sheep and do not represent selection for extremes of type. And if you can through in a shot of intelligence and personality, so much the better. Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: fourhornfarm To: Linda Cc: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:52 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda To: fourhornfarm Cc: BlackSheep ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:28 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics That would sure make the Huntsberger flock primitive, after living for so many years on an uninhabited island off the coast of Maine.That definition would sure make them primitive, but the look of the flock after several years would depend a great deal on what looks the original sheep had that were isolated there so maybe, most likely to survive without man, alone should not make up the definition of primitive. What sort of behavior is primitive? Like most people, I don't much care for a ram that tears the fence down to get to ewes, but isn't that what you would see in a wild flock? Possibly, but they probably don't have fences for a wild flock.I want a ram that is easy for me to handle - but is that primitive behavior? I doubt it, but that depends on what you mean by handle. If you mean halter and lead, probably not. On the same vein, what is a primitive fleece? Is there a primitive fleece? I think Soays are considered among the most primitive of sheep (Neal - jump in here and correct me). We sure wouldn't accept a Soay fleece in JSBA.IMHO a primitive fleece would be the type of fleece the breed had originally. Linda fourhornfarm wrote: MOST LIKELY TO SURVIVE WITHOUT MAN is a very good description of a primitive sheep. My ram, Chicory Lane Chaucer's sire was from a flock that survived without man's interference and he does not allow anything around his ewes, other than a human. He always keeps his distance from humans, but will butt any other animal that gets around his ewes or lambs and even goes over next to the fence if anything is close to the other side so he can butt it if it gets against or through the fence. He is a real protector. Who needs a guard animal with a ram like him? He is a guard animal. I love his primitiveness. ----- Original Message ----- From: BlackSheep To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:59 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics As far as primitive characteristics go, someone on this side of the pond summed it up well I thought when she wrote -: I suppose in summary, most likely to survive without man! Juliet in wet Scotland ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ -- Patchwork Farm Jacob Sheep ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westergladstone at btinternet.com Thu Nov 19 06:29:16 2009 From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (BlackSheep) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:29:16 -0000 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net><0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama><31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox> <4B04830E.7010001@windstream.net> <14E4D9EEC4544E96A501649478263BD3@DollyLama> <4B04915F.9030606@windstream.net> Message-ID: << I personally don't think that a ram lamb that I can halter break should not be considered primitive as opposed to one that is so nutso that I can't handle him. Adaptability might just be a primitive trait as might be the ability to learn.>> Someone mentioned Soay earlier - we keep those too and one trait they have which I consider to be very primitive is that when chased, initially they will run, but when they get tired or are about to be caught they will drop flat to the ground. The lambs too will hide and lie flat, like a faun. I'm not sure if this is playing dead, or they are just lying still hoping no-one will notice them - not much difference really. I have not seen this behaviour in (British) Jacobs. The ability to learn must be a primitive trait which aids survival - certainly in the case of a very aggressive ram, who wouldn't survive long on our place, whereas a nice quiet one would. Fleeces - endlessly debatable ! The Soay fleece is slightly double, in that many specimens have a mane and 'chest wig', even the females, with some hairs over the rest of the body, over a very short woolly layer. When the fleece is 'roo'ed' ie pulled off rather than shearing, these hairs stay behind as a halo and eventually drop out as they are replaced by new growth. However, it is thought that the original sheep were hairy with perhaps only a slight woolly undercoat, and that the wool was encouraged by man. We also keep Hebrideans, which are double coated, but within this breed, it is the less double coats which are thought to be more primitive or old fashioned. By less double I mean that, like the Soay, many Hebrideans have a 'fore and aft' fleece, with a big mane, a slight chest wig, but a less well-developed top coat over the rest of the body, except the britch which is again hairy. The totally double coat, which is even all over the body and has a long outer hair layer over a soft, dense and resilient woolly undercoat, is the result of dedicated breeding. The double coat is thought to be a survival characteristic in our very wet (Scottish)climate as it sheds water, but in fact Hebrideans will shake dry whether they have that top layer or not. Their wool is frizzy, rather than having the crimp organised, so rain tends not to penetrate anyway. For spinning, the double coat can either be spun together for a tough yarn, or the two layers can be pulled apart and spun separately, the hairs for warp and the woolly layer for softer clothing and so on. With Jacobs, if you went so far back as to find the original fleece type, you may well have to go back beyond what is a Jacob. And what would be the point? In America, your sheep have to cope with a huge variety of climate types - Jacobs appear to do that admirably, which is surely the whole point - they survive ! Juliet in Scotland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tcarnes at carnesely.com Thu Nov 19 10:52:49 2009 From: tcarnes at carnesely.com (Thomas Carnes) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 09:52:49 -0600 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob List Sign Up Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20091119155257267.CMLI18187@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> My wife Beverly has tried to sign up for the list several times. She gets the confirming email, but when she does what it says it does not work. She has been trying to get on now for several months, and cannot. Can someone help with this? I assume she is not the only one having a problem. When I signed up, it worked without a glitch. She, however, is the one primarily working with our sheep. THOMAS P. CARNES ATTORNEY & MEDIATOR 945 Barnett Street Kerrville, Texas 78028 * Phone: 830.896.9140 7 Fax: 830.896.0921 * Email: tcarnes at thomaspcarnes.com * Web: www.thomaspcarnes.com The information transmitted herein is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Thank you for your cooperation. _____ From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com [mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of BlackSheep Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 5:29 AM To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics << I personally don't think that a ram lamb that I can halter break should not be considered primitive as opposed to one that is so nutso that I can't handle him. Adaptability might just be a primitive trait as might be the ability to learn.>> Someone mentioned Soay earlier - we keep those too and one trait they have which I consider to be very primitive is that when chased, initially they will run, but when they get tired or are about to be caught they will drop flat to the ground. The lambs too will hide and lie flat, like a faun. I'm not sure if this is playing dead, or they are just lying still hoping no-one will notice them - not much difference really. I have not seen this behaviour in (British) Jacobs. The ability to learn must be a primitive trait which aids survival - certainly in the case of a very aggressive ram, who wouldn't survive long on our place, whereas a nice quiet one would. Fleeces - endlessly debatable ! The Soay fleece is slightly double, in that many specimens have a mane and 'chest wig', even the females, with some hairs over the rest of the body, over a very short woolly layer. When the fleece is 'roo'ed' ie pulled off rather than shearing, these hairs stay behind as a halo and eventually drop out as they are replaced by new growth. However, it is thought that the original sheep were hairy with perhaps only a slight woolly undercoat, and that the wool was encouraged by man. We also keep Hebrideans, which are double coated, but within this breed, it is the less double coats which are thought to be more primitive or old fashioned. By less double I mean that, like the Soay, many Hebrideans have a 'fore and aft' fleece, with a big mane, a slight chest wig, but a less well-developed top coat over the rest of the body, except the britch which is again hairy. The totally double coat, which is even all over the body and has a long outer hair layer over a soft, dense and resilient woolly undercoat, is the result of dedicated breeding. The double coat is thought to be a survival characteristic in our very wet (Scottish)climate as it sheds water, but in fact Hebrideans will shake dry whether they have that top layer or not. Their wool is frizzy, rather than having the crimp organised, so rain tends not to penetrate anyway. For spinning, the double coat can either be spun together for a tough yarn, or the two layers can be pulled apart and spun separately, the hairs for warp and the woolly layer for softer clothing and so on. With Jacobs, if you went so far back as to find the original fleece type, you may well have to go back beyond what is a Jacob. And what would be the point? In America, your sheep have to cope with a huge variety of climate types - Jacobs appear to do that admirably, which is surely the whole point - they survive ! Juliet in Scotland No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.72/2511 - Release Date: 11/18/09 19:41:00 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BIDEWEE at aol.com Thu Nov 19 12:09:56 2009 From: BIDEWEE at aol.com (BIDEWEE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:09:56 EST Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/2009 8:18:12 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com writes: With Jacobs, if you went so far back as to find the original fleece type, you may well have to go back beyond what is a Jacob. And what would be the point? In America, your sheep have to cope with a huge variety of climate types - Jacobs appear to do that admirably, which is surely the whole point - they survive ! Juliet in Scotland AMEN! Well said Juliet. BTW, in addition to Jacobs, we also raise Navajo-Churro sheep and like your Soay, they have a tendency to drop to the ground when caught. We've not seen that tendency in our Jacobs. And trying to walk Churros any distance can be very hard work - they're notorious foot draggers. I suspect they're thinking that if danger lies ahead they're not going to go willingly. The Jacobs on the other hand are great about walking where you need them to go. From a management standpoint (feed and care) the two breeds are very similar but their personalities (and wool) are quite different and for us, that's what makes them both so interesting and fun to raise. Karen (in wet and windy Oregon, USA) bide a wee farm Newberg, OR _www.bideaweefarm.com_ (http://www.bideaweefarm.com/) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katherine1958 at gmail.com Sat Nov 21 09:22:03 2009 From: katherine1958 at gmail.com (Katherine Williamson) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:22:03 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Saturday morning musing Message-ID: <2733bb450911210622m7e957282y5a639a7bb5d4503d@mail.gmail.com> Thought this was appropriate for an early Satruday morning. Kathey *XI. by Wendell Berry Though he was ill and in pain, in disobedience to the instruction he would have received if he had asked, the old man got up from his bed, dressed, and went to the barn. The bare branches of winter had emerged through the last leaf-colors of fall, the loveliest of all, browns and yellows delicate and nameless in the gray light and the sifting rain. He put feed in the troughs for eighteen ewe lambs, sent the dog for them, and she brought them. They came eager to their feed, and he who felt their hunger was by their feeding eased. From no place in the time of present places, within no boundary nameable in human thought, they had gathered once again, the shepherd, his sheep, and his dog with all the known and the unknown round about to the heavens' limit. Was this his stubbornness or bravado? No. Only an ordinary act of profoundest intimacy in a day that might have been better. Still the world persisted in its beauty, he in his gratitude, and for this he had most earnestly prayed. * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From perfectspot at bellsouth.net Sat Nov 21 09:51:27 2009 From: perfectspot at bellsouth.net (Cathy Robinson) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:51:27 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Saturday morning musing In-Reply-To: <2733bb450911210622m7e957282y5a639a7bb5d4503d@mail.gmail.com> References: <2733bb450911210622m7e957282y5a639a7bb5d4503d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B07FE6F.6080003@bellsouth.net> Beautiful, Kathey. Thanks for sharing with all of us. Cathy Perfect Spot Farm Katherine Williamson wrote: > Thought this was appropriate for an early Satruday morning. > > Kathey > > > /XI. > by Wendell Berry > Though he was ill and in pain, > in disobedience to the instruction he > would have received if he had asked, > the old man got up from his bed, > dressed, and went to the barn. > The bare branches of winter had emerged > through the last leaf-colors of fall, > the loveliest of all, browns and yellows > delicate and nameless in the gray light > and the sifting rain. He put feed > in the troughs for eighteen ewe lambs, > sent the dog for them, and she > brought them. They came eager > to their feed, and he who felt > their hunger was by their feeding > eased. From no place in the time > of present places, within no boundary > nameable in human thought, > they had gathered once again, > the shepherd, his sheep, and his dog > with all the known and the unknown > round about to the heavens' limit. > Was this his stubbornness or bravado? > No. Only an ordinary act > of profoundest intimacy in a day > that might have been better. Still > the world persisted in its beauty, > he in his gratitude, and for this > he had most earnestly prayed. / > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sugarpinejacobs at yahoo.com Sat Nov 21 12:04:54 2009 From: sugarpinejacobs at yahoo.com (Jaci Siehl) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:04:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Jacob-list] Northern CA Ram, Whether, Ewe lamb for sale Message-ID: <123050.83507.qm@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I must reduce my flock by at least 2 animals.? ? All sheep are from Meridian and Hillside lines and all are "C" generations.? The?following are available: ? ? WYATT $225 - "spring 2008" ram - 4 horn, perfect spacing and shape - perfect face spots, good fleece, proven to throw good lambs.? Wyatt was shown as lamb and yearling and the last judge stated she had not seen a better example of meeting Jacob ram standard than he is.? ? VIRGIL $100 - "spring 2008" whether - 4 horn, has spears for top horns (which is why he is a whether).? Great personality, friendly (but doesn't think he is a puppy-dog), very nice fleece (the other reason he is a whether and not dinner).? 1/2 brother to Wyatt ? MINNIE and PEARL $125 ea -?twin spring 2009 ewe lambs -?Pearl is?2-horn and Minnie is?4-horn.? Wyatt's offspring.? Both have nice fleeces - only one is available, your choice Take 2 animals and save $50.? Pictures available upon request. Jaci Siehl Sugarpine Jacobs 530-538-9474 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sugarpinejacobs at yahoo.com Sat Nov 21 12:13:09 2009 From: sugarpinejacobs at yahoo.com (Jaci Siehl) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 09:13:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Jacob-list] 2010 JACOB SHEEP CALENDAR Message-ID: <357487.88366.qm@web113808.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The JSBA has produced a 2010 calendar.? The 60+ photos in the calendar represent over 30 breeders of Jacob Sheep across the country. ? These are just in time for gift-giving and help you plan 2010.? We have included the dates and locations of?many fairs, sheep shows, and other events where you can see Jacob sheep throughout the United States in 2010.? ? Cost is $12.00.? Shipping to any address in the US is $2.50.? ? Go to www.jsba.org or reply directly to Sugarpinejacobs at yahoo.com to order yours today. Jaci Siehl Sugarpine Jacobs 530-538-9474 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snielsen1 at earthlink.net Sat Nov 21 15:56:31 2009 From: snielsen1 at earthlink.net (Susan Nielsen) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:56:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Jacob-list] Saturday morning musing Message-ID: <5640018.1258836991460.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Sat Nov 21 23:05:32 2009 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 23:05:32 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics References: <37D03860C15946CA84E40BB1A76382E3@DollyLama><002601ca6776$3a800230$d3a072d8@USER5AFE0954BF><8CC35AA5B6150E7-2D50-BBC1@webmail-m025.sysops.aol.com><4B03400D.9090504@bellsouth.net><0C64D731F0304FB2864CCB2A123FC17B@DollyLama><31FE3123DCF743A5AE1FCDC98899B1FA@Newbox> <4B04830E.7010001@windstream.net><14E4D9EEC4544E96A501649478263BD3@DollyLama> <4B04915F.9030606@windstream.net> Message-ID: <8D949FFDB38445CF96FCD89345252142@DollyLama> I don't think anyone wants a "nutso" Jacob. I have never had one myself. Mine all seem to be pretty smart, but if I ever get a nutso I will certainly cull it from the flock. ----- Original Message ----- From: BlackSheep To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2009 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics << I personally don't think that a ram lamb that I can halter break should not be considered primitive as opposed to one that is so nutso that I can't handle him. Adaptability might just be a primitive trait as might be the ability to learn.>> Someone mentioned Soay earlier - we keep those too and one trait they have which I consider to be very primitive is that when chased, initially they will run, but when they get tired or are about to be caught they will drop flat to the ground. The lambs too will hide and lie flat, like a faun. I'm not sure if this is playing dead, or they are just lying still hoping no-one will notice them - not much difference really. I have not seen this behaviour in (British) Jacobs. The ability to learn must be a primitive trait which aids survival - certainly in the case of a very aggressive ram, who wouldn't survive long on our place, whereas a nice quiet one would. Fleeces - endlessly debatable ! The Soay fleece is slightly double, in that many specimens have a mane and 'chest wig', even the females, with some hairs over the rest of the body, over a very short woolly layer. When the fleece is 'roo'ed' ie pulled off rather than shearing, these hairs stay behind as a halo and eventually drop out as they are replaced by new growth. However, it is thought that the original sheep were hairy with perhaps only a slight woolly undercoat, and that the wool was encouraged by man. We also keep Hebrideans, which are double coated, but within this breed, it is the less double coats which are thought to be more primitive or old fashioned. By less double I mean that, like the Soay, many Hebrideans have a 'fore and aft' fleece, with a big mane, a slight chest wig, but a less well-developed top coat over the rest of the body, except the britch which is again hairy. The totally double coat, which is even all over the body and has a long outer hair layer over a soft, dense and resilient woolly undercoat, is the result of dedicated breeding. The double coat is thought to be a survival characteristic in our very wet (Scottish)climate as it sheds water, but in fact Hebrideans will shake dry whether they have that top layer or not. Their wool is frizzy, rather than having the crimp organised, so rain tends not to penetrate anyway. For spinning, the double coat can either be spun together for a tough yarn, or the two layers can be pulled apart and spun separately, the hairs for warp and the woolly layer for softer clothing and so on. With Jacobs, if you went so far back as to find the original fleece type, you may well have to go back beyond what is a Jacob. And what would be the point? In America, your sheep have to cope with a huge variety of climate types - Jacobs appear to do that admirably, which is surely the whole point - they survive ! Juliet in Scotland ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us Sun Nov 22 12:33:32 2009 From: hobbyknobfarm at main.nc.us (hobbyknobfarm) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 12:33:32 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] jacob wethers in WNC Message-ID: I will be taking back 3 pet Jacob wethers, 2 and 3 years of age, due to a family tragedy and am hoping maybe someone here in the southeast might know someone who might want these for fiber/pet/companion. I am happy to give them away except for possible transportation costs. Feel free to give them my email or phone which you can find on my website (www.hobbyknobfarm.com) I had gotten my numbers down for the winter and really did not want to do this but just felt it was the right thing to do to help this person. Elizabeth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aztreaz at earthlink.net Sun Nov 22 21:14:06 2009 From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 18:14:06 -0800 Subject: [Jacob-list] Primitive characteristics Message-ID: <410-22009111232146703@earthlink.net> --Previous Message-- >>I don't think anyone wants a "nutso" Jacob. I have never had one myself. Mine all seem to be pretty smart, but if I ever get a nutso I will certainly cull it from the flock. ============ How about Jacob sheep being called "loupy"? That is what one of my yearling ewes was called last week by a new owner. The sheep jumped, tugged, and then laid down flat when the lady tried to move her with a halter and lead. I thought :"loupy" meant "nutso" so naturally, I was offended; however, the word "loup" in the dictionary means "to jump and leap about" which is exactly what the ewe was doing. I explained that the Jacob sheep are primitive sheep, but she wants tame, friendly sheep. Hmmm. In trying to send the above, my spell checker came up with the word "loopy" which means "eccentric, befuddled or confused; esp. due to intoxication", so I guess I am offended after all. Cathy Moscow, Idaho Home of the loupy, but not loopy, sheep