From Barbll at aol.com Sun Jun 1 10:42:48 2008 From: Barbll at aol.com (Barbll at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:42:48 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] message to post Message-ID: Could you please post the following for me. Thanks Barbara Lee-Leviten Ram Lambs for sale Hi Everyone: We are first-time breeders in Reading, Vermont. We have 2 attractive ram labs (born March 31) that we would like to sell as breeding rams or to a spinning flock. Both are two-horned, well marked with nice fleece. Check online the pedigrees of Limbertwig (Maple Hill) and Stoney (4 Horn Farm). Please email me for more info and photos. Thanks. Barbara - barbll at aol.com. **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Mon Jun 2 19:38:20 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:38:20 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Shedding Jacob with no spots?????? In-Reply-To: <254391.32366.qm@web31508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200862193820.987720@patchwor-efob1t> Are they shedding or is the wool breaking or are they rubbing off matted clumps? I've had some from Mary (and have daughters/granddaughters) and they tend to shed the belly wool, which I've heard is a primitive trait. I've seen a few two year fleeces from the flock and they all had a break in the wool.Year old fleeces were strong. Mary's sheep (at least the ones I've had) had pretty fine fleeces that felted well. I've seen sheep that missed getting shorn and the wool would felt and then start getting pulled off in clumps when the sheep scratched - which they do alot when they have felted clumps annoying them. That's different from shedding, I think. I've seen sheep that shed naturally and it's not the same as what happens when sheep aren't shorn for two years. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > Shedding wool from Jacobs - yes, I got some from a Jamestown OH > breeder that tended to shed if not shorn (they missed getting > sheared that year). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pegvanbeek at msn.com Tue Jun 3 09:54:34 2008 From: pegvanbeek at msn.com (Marguerite Van Beek) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:54:34 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Message-ID: To all Jacob Breeders,. Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. At the MSWF a Jacob breeder approached some people that we looking and admiring our flock can up to them started a conversation and stated that our Jacobs are not "true Jacobs" because we have some that don't have leg markings. I guess the gentlemen didn't know that my daughter was standing right there when he said it. Are we as a group becoming so critical in what consider a "true Jacob" should be? I have full siblings in my flock where one has leg marking and another does not. So, the one without is not a true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one that does. What is going on with our group? Last year it was the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, which is it? Peggy Ridgecroft Farms -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ACAMDA at aol.com Tue Jun 3 09:58:22 2008 From: ACAMDA at aol.com (ACAMDA at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:58:22 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Message-ID: Peggy - I had a gentleman who wanted all my ram lambs this year - until he learned they were all 2 horns. Not sure how we managed to get only 2 horned rams this year, but it happened. He argued with my husband and said that true Jacobs should have 4 horns. Kathey **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nlgrose at yadtel.net Tue Jun 3 10:06:12 2008 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:06:12 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" References: Message-ID: <001001c8c582$fc240ae0$6402a8c0@HAL2> The last time I checked, the British Jacob breed Standard forbade leg markings. For me, the perfect Jacob is our first ram: "Ram-I-Am", 75% black, leg markings, 80 pounds wringing wet, 3 pound fleece, 5 horns (asymmetrical as all get out) and all attitude. Faced down a 1500 lb cow. Wouldn't meet the breed standard. Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- From: Marguerite Van Beek To: jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:54 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" To all Jacob Breeders,. Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. At the MSWF a Jacob breeder approached some people that we looking and admiring our flock can up to them started a conversation and stated that our Jacobs are not "true Jacobs" because we have some that don't have leg markings. I guess the gentlemen didn't know that my daughter was standing right there when he said it. Are we as a group becoming so critical in what consider a "true Jacob" should be? I have full siblings in my flock where one has leg marking and another does not. So, the one without is not a true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one that does. What is going on with our group? Last year it was the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, which is it? Peggy Ridgecroft Farms ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pegvanbeek at msn.com Tue Jun 3 10:06:21 2008 From: pegvanbeek at msn.com (Marguerite Van Beek) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:06:21 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" References: Message-ID: Kathey Well that was last year's argument. I breed two and four horn. Four horn sheep do sell better but there are some people that prefer two horn sheep. I have no idea where all of this is coming from. I was told and read that Jacobs are not cookie cutter and do come 2 or 4 horn, leg marking, no leg markings, black, lilac. Where is all this talk of cross breeding coming from? Did you ask that man why he thought that? Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: ACAMDA at aol.com To: pegvanbeek at msn.com ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:58 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Peggy - I had a gentleman who wanted all my ram lambs this year - until he learned they were all 2 horns. Not sure how we managed to get only 2 horned rams this year, but it happened. He argued with my husband and said that true Jacobs should have 4 horns. Kathey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gotothewhip at aol.com Tue Jun 3 10:07:14 2008 From: Gotothewhip at aol.com (Gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:07:14 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Message-ID: I have 2 sets of twins.. one lamb in each pair has SIGNIFICANT leg markings, and the other lamb of the pair has none. I also have lambs sired by my senior Ram and out of a ewe with no leg markings, and the resulting lambs have leg markings, almost to excess! Jennifer Tucker Moose Mtn Ranch www.MooseMtnRanch.com **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westergladstone at btinternet.com Tue Jun 3 10:42:13 2008 From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (Juliet & Gordon) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:42:13 +0100 Subject: [Jacob-list] ] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" References: <001001c8c582$fc240ae0$6402a8c0@HAL2> Message-ID: <003e01c8c588$047a30c0$0201a8c0@Newbox> As Neal pointed out, over here in Britain all leg markings are a 'fault'. This is something we personally are not happy about, but if you spoke to someone at a show here they would probably find 'American' type Jacobs strange. Looking at some of your websites, I find your sheep are often different to those we find over here, but they are lovely all the same and as much true Jacobs as any here. Another obsession over here is black noses (pink noses allegedly crept in with some sneaky addition of Dorset blood which everyone now denies) If you don't have a black nose, forget it !! In Scotland 4 horned animals are preferred whilst down in England 2 horned are the preference, although both types are found in both countries. In all 4 horned breeds, some 2 horned animals occur and it is simply individual preference which type any one person likes - both are true. Looking at the Hebrideans, our native Scottish 4 horned sheep, pure fashion has nearly caused the 4 horns to be lost. Only about 6% of lambs born currently are 4 horned, compared to over 60% in the 1980s. We have spotted the trend and are now doing something about it, which involves a lot of publicity and education about the 4 horned type. There is something special about 4 horned animals but it must be admitted that they are a little more difficult to handle and to get just perfect horns, so many breeders prefer the 2 horned variety. Do those of you who keep Navajo Churros find a similar situation? I think the person your daughter overheard disparaging your sheep, Peggy, was trying to show off to whoever he was talking to, but just ended up sounding like a fool. Don't worry about it - you know your sheep are great and that's what matters. Juliet in Scotland UK -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From messen at socket.net Tue Jun 3 11:27:26 2008 From: messen at socket.net (Mark Essen) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:27:26 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are we competitive or cynical? I prefer to think that we are critical. Anytime we look at prospective new flock members we become very critical. My picture perfect Jacob has four bold symmetric horns with nice eye and muzzle patches to match the nice knee patches and random black spots all over the rest of the white petite body. I will not put a two horn or white legged Jacobs into my flock. But, this is just a critical preference of what I want in my flock. To claim that somebody else's sheep are impure or second class Jacobs for these reasons would just simply be wrong. People used to say the same things about red Angus and Holsteins. The other thing that we should all strive for (have to keep reminding myself of this) is we have to be diplomatic. My critical comments should never be spoken is such a way that they be taken as an insult. We also have to be thick skinned enough to forgive or ignore those that fail the diplomacy test. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marguerite Van Beek To: jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" To all Jacob Breeders,. Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. At the MSWF a Jacob breeder approached some people that we looking and admiring our flock can up to them started a conversation and stated that our Jacobs are not "true Jacobs" because we have some that don't have leg markings. I guess the gentlemen didn't know that my daughter was standing right there when he said it. Are we as a group becoming so critical in what consider a "true Jacob" should be? I have full siblings in my flock where one has leg marking and another does not. So, the one without is not a true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one that does. What is going on with our group? Last year it was the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, which is it? Peggy Ridgecroft Farms ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Tue Jun 3 12:06:05 2008 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:06:05 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" References: Message-ID: <001501c8c593$bcab0c90$4001a8c0@DollyLama> Well said Mark. I think we often say things that offend others, myself included, not realizing it because we all have different ideas like Jacobs all have different spotting patterns. We also need to be forgiving and hope they didn't realize what they were saying. I too prefer Jacobs with knee and hock spots, black muzzles and 4Hs, but do have some ewes in our flock that have white legs and some are 2H too. Some of the things that I think are important are keeping our Jacob breed hardy and primitive in nature. That fine bone, deer like conformation, ease of lambing and good mothering ability, parasite resistance etc. are a great part of what makes Jacobs what they are. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Essen To: jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Are we competitive or cynical? I prefer to think that we are critical. Anytime we look at prospective new flock members we become very critical. My picture perfect Jacob has four bold symmetric horns with nice eye and muzzle patches to match the nice knee patches and random black spots all over the rest of the white petite body. I will not put a two horn or white legged Jacobs into my flock. But, this is just a critical preference of what I want in my flock. To claim that somebody else's sheep are impure or second class Jacobs for these reasons would just simply be wrong. People used to say the same things about red Angus and Holsteins. The other thing that we should all strive for (have to keep reminding myself of this) is we have to be diplomatic. My critical comments should never be spoken is such a way that they be taken as an insult. We also have to be thick skinned enough to forgive or ignore those that fail the diplomacy test. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marguerite Van Beek To: jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" To all Jacob Breeders,. Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. At the MSWF a Jacob breeder approached some people that we looking and admiring our flock can up to them started a conversation and stated that our Jacobs are not "true Jacobs" because we have some that don't have leg markings. I guess the gentlemen didn't know that my daughter was standing right there when he said it. Are we as a group becoming so critical in what consider a "true Jacob" should be? I have full siblings in my flock where one has leg marking and another does not. So, the one without is not a true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one that does. What is going on with our group? Last year it was the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, which is it? Peggy Ridgecroft Farms ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pegvanbeek at msn.com Tue Jun 3 12:12:39 2008 From: pegvanbeek at msn.com (Marguerite Van Beek) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:12:39 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" References: <001501c8c593$bcab0c90$4001a8c0@DollyLama> Message-ID: Carl & Mark Absolutely. I have a mix bag in my flock. What I like about one I may not like about another. If they have white legs but have the face patches, beautiful fleece quality and conformation I will forgo the leg markings. I have people who come and want a particular type of Jacob and if I have it so be it and if I don't I send them to another breeder in the hopes they will find their type. Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: fourhornfarm To: Mark Essen ; jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:06 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Well said Mark. I think we often say things that offend others, myself included, not realizing it because we all have different ideas like Jacobs all have different spotting patterns. We also need to be forgiving and hope they didn't realize what they were saying. I too prefer Jacobs with knee and hock spots, black muzzles and 4Hs, but do have some ewes in our flock that have white legs and some are 2H too. Some of the things that I think are important are keeping our Jacob breed hardy and primitive in nature. That fine bone, deer like conformation, ease of lambing and good mothering ability, parasite resistance etc. are a great part of what makes Jacobs what they are. Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Essen To: jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:27 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Are we competitive or cynical? I prefer to think that we are critical. Anytime we look at prospective new flock members we become very critical. My picture perfect Jacob has four bold symmetric horns with nice eye and muzzle patches to match the nice knee patches and random black spots all over the rest of the white petite body. I will not put a two horn or white legged Jacobs into my flock. But, this is just a critical preference of what I want in my flock. To claim that somebody else's sheep are impure or second class Jacobs for these reasons would just simply be wrong. People used to say the same things about red Angus and Holsteins. The other thing that we should all strive for (have to keep reminding myself of this) is we have to be diplomatic. My critical comments should never be spoken is such a way that they be taken as an insult. We also have to be thick skinned enough to forgive or ignore those that fail the diplomacy test. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marguerite Van Beek To: jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" To all Jacob Breeders,. Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. At the MSWF a Jacob breeder approached some people that we looking and admiring our flock can up to them started a conversation and stated that our Jacobs are not "true Jacobs" because we have some that don't have leg markings. I guess the gentlemen didn't know that my daughter was standing right there when he said it. Are we as a group becoming so critical in what consider a "true Jacob" should be? I have full siblings in my flock where one has leg marking and another does not. So, the one without is not a true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one that does. What is going on with our group? Last year it was the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, which is it? Peggy Ridgecroft Farms -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Hobsickle at aol.com Tue Jun 3 12:18:43 2008 From: Hobsickle at aol.com (Hobsickle at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:18:43 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Message-ID: On my web site (_http://members.aol.com/bonnie%20jacob/JacobSheep.html_ (http://members.aol.com/bonnie%20jacob/JacobSheep.html) ) I have a picture of a flock in England taken around 1900--well before any known American or Canadian imports. If you look closely they are all (or nearly all) TWO horned and have FEW IF ANY leg markings (other than dirt on their knees). -Dan **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bidewee at aol.com Tue Jun 3 12:34:25 2008 From: bidewee at aol.com (BIDE WEE) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:34:25 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Message-ID: <67ead6da.4bf2.48a5.8b98.f32b398d9472@aol.com> Hi Peggy, Every breeder of Jacob sheep has their own preference as to how they prefer their animal's legs (and other parts) to look but as far as the breed standard goes, white legs are perfectly acceptable. As evidence I've copied the section from the JSBA Breed Standard "Desirable Traits" section on "Legs", and a paragraph "About Jacob Sheep" which I found on the JSC website. For future shows you might consider carrying several copies of the breed standard with you so you can hand a copy to anyone who is confused about what's acceptable and what's not. For JSBA - Breed Standard: Desirable Traits (found at: http://www.jsba.org/standard.htm) LEGS: Set square on all corners, standing firm, well-balanced Fine boned and of medium length Free of wool below the knees Color: white with or without colored patches Hooves are black or striped For JSC - I couldn't locate the breed standard on their website but found "What is a Jacob sheep" which addresses markings (found at: http://www.jacobsheepconservancy.org/jsc_about.htm) "Both rams and ewes exhibit the black markings, some of which are breed specific and some are random. Breed specific markings occur as black patches on the muzzle, around the eyes, nape of the neck, ears, pasterns, knees and hocks. The desired Jacob face is often referred to as "Badger-faced" with black cheeks and muzzle with a white blaze down the front of the face. The skin around the eyes and nose should be black. Random spots occur on the rest of the body and legs. The color pattern is approximately 50% black to white, though a great variation in the amount of black occurs. Each Jacob has distinctive markings which enables the shepherd to identify specific sheep at a distance. In addition to breed specific markings, there may be evidence of markings that are common in particular lines: large muzzle markings, lack of leg markings, lack of muzzle marking, etc." Several years ago at the Oregon Flock and Fiber Festival the sheep show judge was a woman who raises Jacob sheep in Ireland. She placed Jacobs with leg spots at the back of each class. Ater the first class I quietly mentioned to her that legs spots are perfectly acceptable according to the US Jacob breed standard. Her response... "Jacob sheep should have white legs!" Karen Lobb bide a wee farm registered Jacob and Navajo-Churro sheep 19562 NE Calkins Lane, Newberg, OR 97132 503-538-7987 ~ karen at bideaweefarm.com www.bideaweefarm.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Tue Jun 3 12:52:42 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:52:42 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200863125242.191811@patchwor-efob1t> Very well said, Mark. Peggy, I find it very disturbing that a Jacob breeder would say such a thing. I would have to think that it was not a breeder that belonged to either JSBA or JSC and certainly not one that ever registered. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > Are we competitive or cynical? I prefer to think that we are > critical. Anytime we look at prospective new flock members we > become very critical. My picture perfect Jacob has four bold > symmetric horns with nice eye and muzzle patches to match the nice > knee patches and random black spots all over the rest of the white > petite body. I will not put a two horn or white legged Jacobs into > my flock. But, this is just a critical preference of what I want > in my flock. To claim that somebody else's sheep are impure or > second class Jacobs for these reasons would just simply be wrong. > People used to say the same things about red Angus and Holsteins. > The other thing that we should all strive for (have to keep > reminding myself of this) is we have to be diplomatic. My critical > comments should never be spoken is such a way that they be taken as > an insult. We also have to be thick skinned enough to forgive or > ignore those that fail the diplomacy test. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Marguerite Van Beek >> To: jacob-list >> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 8:54 AM >> Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" >> >> >> To all Jacob Breeders,. >> >> Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings >> is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. At the MSWF a >> Jacob breeder approached some people that we looking and admiring >> our flock can up to them started a conversation and stated that >> our Jacobs are not "true Jacobs" because we have some that don't >> have leg markings. I guess the gentlemen didn't know that my >> daughter was standing right there when he said it. >> Are we as a group becoming so critical in what consider a "true >> Jacob" should be? I have full siblings in my flock where one has >> leg marking and another does not. So, the one without is not a >> true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one >> that does. What is going on with our group? Last year it was >> the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. >> Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we >> are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, >> which is it? >> >> Peggy >> Ridgecroft Farms >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & >> Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From messen at socket.net Tue Jun 3 13:02:01 2008 From: messen at socket.net (Mark Essen) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:02:01 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8F324F365A3B486589F8882D8D3B11CC@famousacresPC> I agree, not only JSBA, but all of the other registries would refuse to reject just for these characteristics. But this brings up another point that I think we sometimes forget. There are a lot of Jacob Sheep and Sheppard's out there that do not have any connection to any registry. Their idea of a breed standard is often just a personal preference. My suspicion is that the person making these remarks knows something about Jacobs and has seen some in the past. I also suspect that the ones he is familiar with had knee patches. Thereby making them the pure ones. If my suspicions are correct, then this man had the most dangerous of all commodities...a little knowledge. I like the idea of having a sign on the gate stating the breed characteristics and history. A little education can turn an unfortunate event into a very positive memory. ----- Original Message ----- From: Marguerite Van Beek To: Mark Essen Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Mark I agree. I hold no grunge on him. I just want to know where do they get these idea's from. It is not in the JSBA breed standards nor anywhere else. Would you not agree. Peggy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pegvanbeek at msn.com Tue Jun 3 13:09:57 2008 From: pegvanbeek at msn.com (Marguerite Van Beek) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:09:57 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" References: <200863125242.191811@patchwor-efob1t> Message-ID: Linda The sad part is he is. But my question is where do they get this opinion? It is not in the JSBA or JSC rule books. I know some prefer markings some don't but it is acceptable trait. I wanted to find out who really feels this way in our association. Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda To: Mark Essen ; jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:52 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Very well said, Mark. Peggy, I find it very disturbing that a Jacob breeder would say such a thing. I would have to think that it was not a breeder that belonged to either JSBA or JSC and certainly not one that ever registered. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > Are we competitive or cynical? I prefer to think that we are > critical. Anytime we look at prospective new flock members we > become very critical. My picture perfect Jacob has four bold > symmetric horns with nice eye and muzzle patches to match the nice > knee patches and random black spots all over the rest of the white > petite body. I will not put a two horn or white legged Jacobs into > my flock. But, this is just a critical preference of what I want > in my flock. To claim that somebody else's sheep are impure or > second class Jacobs for these reasons would just simply be wrong. > People used to say the same things about red Angus and Holsteins. > The other thing that we should all strive for (have to keep > reminding myself of this) is we have to be diplomatic. My critical > comments should never be spoken is such a way that they be taken as > an insult. We also have to be thick skinned enough to forgive or > ignore those that fail the diplomacy test. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Marguerite Van Beek >> To: jacob-list >> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 8:54 AM >> Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" >> >> >> To all Jacob Breeders,. >> >> Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings >> is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. At the MSWF a >> Jacob breeder approached some people that we looking and admiring >> our flock can up to them started a conversation and stated that >> our Jacobs are not "true Jacobs" because we have some that don't >> have leg markings. I guess the gentlemen didn't know that my >> daughter was standing right there when he said it. >> Are we as a group becoming so critical in what consider a "true >> Jacob" should be? I have full siblings in my flock where one has >> leg marking and another does not. So, the one without is not a >> true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one >> that does. What is going on with our group? Last year it was >> the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. >> Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we >> are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, >> which is it? >> >> Peggy >> Ridgecroft Farms >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & >> Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com >> http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stcroft at ptd.net Tue Jun 3 13:19:40 2008 From: stcroft at ptd.net (Susan J Martin) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:19:40 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] (no subject) Message-ID: <007101c8c59e$02058540$57c19818@Ultra> I am obviously an "island in the stream" - I have always liked Jacobs with white legs......too many patches on the legs gives the appearance of looking "busy" to me. However, that is purely a matter of taste and I have Jacobs with both 4H, 2H and knee patches -- and others with no leg color. I have Jacobs who are larger in conformation and look solid and blocky and I have others who are petite and delicate.........and I LOVE EM ALL!!! And, more importantly, they are all well within the breed standard ....... and I like the diversity. Sue Martin Stonecroft -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aztreaz at earthlink.net Tue Jun 3 15:07:21 2008 From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:07:21 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Message-ID: <410-2200862319721330@earthlink.net> --Previous Message-- >So, the one without is not a true Jacob even thou he carriers that same gene pool as the one that does. What is going on with our group? >Last year it was the two horn should be culled, this year it is the leg markings. Gee, that would eliminate a lot of Jacobs. Is this the path we >are heading into. Have we become that competitive or cynical, which is it? ============ I have quite a variation of Jacobs and I have observed, in my flock, that the ones with no leg markings have the best quality fleeces and no freckles. Going only by "looks", I do prefer leg markings; but right now the fleeces mean more to me than how the animal's legs look. I have three lilacs and all have white legs. Do lilacs usually have no leg markings? Cathy Moscow, Idaho From snielsen at orednet.org Tue Jun 3 15:34:46 2008 From: snielsen at orednet.org (snielsen at orednet.org) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 12:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50542.198.177.27.25.1212521686.squirrel@shemp.dialoregon.net> Marguerite Van Beek wrote: > Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings is not > a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. In my opinion, true human beings have red hair. You will see lots of other hair colors out there, but those are usually signs of cross-breeding and dilution of the pure gene pool. You'll also see lots of attempts to alter hair color in the direction of red. That doesn't make the individuals red-haired, but it does point up the desirability of red-hairedness. Also, natively red-haired individuals carry the gene for horns. Just because they don't have phenotypic horns, that doesn't mean they don't have the gene for horns somewhere in their make-up. With careful assessment of progeny, the trait can probably be restored to the population. Let's hope we can gently educate those breeders and judges who have a rigid view of preference. "True" Jacobs are, fortunately, all across the map. One of the important aspects of a heritage breed is its potential for variability. It's one of the things that makes it tough for judges who perhaps do not understand the nature of breeding rare lines. There is room for preference here, and lots of room for variation. Susan -- See our farm blog at http://skepweaver.wordpress.com/ -- Peace also takes courage. From rlynde at onramp113.org Tue Jun 3 17:21:30 2008 From: rlynde at onramp113.org (Robin Lynde) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:21:30 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Sheep from CA to OR Message-ID: <005001c8c5bf$ca682f30$6401a8c0@your4dacd0ea75> Hi, I just updated some of my photos of lambs for sale on my website. http://www.meridianjacobs.com/sheep_for_sale.html I will be driving to Black Sheep Gathering in a couple of week and could bring lambs. The vet is coming for health certificates on Monday, 6/9, so I need to figure out the final head count by then. Let me know if you're interested in lambs and I can send you more info. Robin Lynde Meridian Jacobs Vacaville, CA www.meridianjacobs.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Tue Jun 3 18:43:15 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:43:15 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In-Reply-To: <410-2200862319721330@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200863184315.255020@patchwor-efob1t> In GENERAL, which means not always true and not supported at all by any research, sheep with a lot of leg flash (not just knee and hock spots) are more likely to be freckled or ticked. Notice how I am avoiding making any definite statement :-) I have seen no correlation between leg markings (facial markings, hornset, body spotting, etc) and fleece quality. Most (not all) of my lilacs have been short on leg markings, but many lilacs have excellent leg markings. Lilacs are rarer and sometimes there is not as large a selection as when we are looking for blacks. There are lilac lines out there with "ideal" "perfect" markings. It's not the color that determines markings. If everyone selected for lilac without paying attention to anything except the color, we could end up with lilacs with poor markings, horns, fleeces, etc. Same as selecting for any specific trait without thought to other traits. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > I have quite a variation of Jacobs and I have observed, in my > flock, that the ones with no leg markings have the best quality > fleeces and no freckles. Going only by "looks", I do prefer leg > markings; but right now the fleeces mean more to me than how the > animal's legs look. I have three lilacs and all have white legs. > Do lilacs usually have no leg markings? > > Cathy > Moscow, Idaho > > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & > Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Tue Jun 3 19:35:00 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:35:00 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In-Reply-To: <8F324F365A3B486589F8882D8D3B11CC@famousacresPC> Message-ID: <20086319350.748463@patchwor-efob1t> Even among breeders that don't register, isn't there an idea of what is a Jacob? I'm not talking about the 60/40 color or ideal facial markings or perfectly marked legs or the JSBA or JSC standard. I'm talking about the all black four horned rams in the post that Jaci sent. Maybe the breed standard is personal preference if you start out knowing what a Jacob is, but maybe it would keep someone from buying one of the rams advertised as a Jacob Sheep in Jaci's post. I sometimes get emails from people (not JSBA or JSC members) with pictures of their "prize" Jacobs. Some of the sheep are completely black except for the white cap, some of the ewes have no horns, some have four black legs, some are double coated, some just aren't Jacobs... on and on and on, yada, yada, yada. They bought these sheep from someone that told them they were Jacob Sheep. They are so excited to have their first "Jacobs". I know you are an ethical breeder and are familiar with other exotic sheep breeds and know that your Jacobs are Jacobs. But there sure are a bunch of breeders out there selling any sort of spotted/no horns or four horned/no spots sheep as a Jacob Sheep. I think the JSBA standard online might help prospective buyers make more informed decisions. I really like the idea of having the breed characteristics posted somewhere during MSWF. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > I agree, not only JSBA, but all of the other registries would > refuse to reject just for these characteristics. But this brings > up another point that I think we sometimes forget. There are a lot > of Jacob Sheep and Sheppard's out there that do not have any > connection to any registry. Their idea of a breed standard is > often just a personal preference. My suspicion is that the person > making these remarks knows something about Jacobs and has seen some > in the past. I also suspect that the ones he is familiar with had > knee patches. Thereby making them the pure ones. If my suspicions > are correct, then this man had the most dangerous of all > commodities...a little knowledge. > I like the idea of having a sign on the gate stating the breed > characteristics and history. A little education can turn an > unfortunate event into a very positive memory. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Marguerite Van Beek >> To: Mark Essen >> Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 11:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" >> >> >> Mark >> >> I agree. I hold no grunge on him. I just want to know where do >> they get these idea's from. It is not in the JSBA breed >> standards nor anywhere else. Would you not agree. >> >> Peggy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BIDEWEE at aol.com Tue Jun 3 20:45:30 2008 From: BIDEWEE at aol.com (BIDEWEE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:45:30 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Freckles & Leg Spots Message-ID: In a message dated 6/3/2008 2:22:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com writes: I have quite a variation of Jacobs and I have observed, in my flock, that the ones with no leg markings have the best quality fleeces and no freckles.... Cathy Moscow, Idaho Hi Cathy, That's been our experience too. A fair number of the Jacobs we've had/have with leg spots also have freckling in their wool. We sort a lot of our wool by color so we try to keep freckling in the white wool to a minimum. Consequently, we tend toward Jacobs with white legs. Additionally, we find that the white Jacob wool (which the white legged [sp?] sheep often have more of) tends to be nicer then the black. We've been working hard to get consistency in our fleeces from white wool to black, but even on the most consistent fleeces, the black wool toward the back end is often slightly coarser then the white wool. Karen L. bide a wee farm **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Tue Jun 3 20:42:07 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:42:07 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In-Reply-To: <50542.198.177.27.25.1212521686.squirrel@shemp.dialoregon.net> Message-ID: <20086320427.131767@patchwor-efob1t> Have you read Still Life with Woodpecker? www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > Marguerite Van Beek wrote: > >> Do any of you think that a Jacob that does not have leg markings >> is not a "true Jacob". That they are a crossbred. >> > > In my opinion, true human beings have red hair. You will see lots > of other hair colors out there, but those are usually signs of > cross-breeding and dilution of the pure gene pool. You'll also see > lots of attempts to alter hair color in the direction of red. That > doesn't make the individuals red-haired, but it does point up the > desirability of red-hairedness. Also, natively red-haired > individuals carry the gene for horns. Just because they don't have > phenotypic horns, that doesn't mean they don't have the gene for > horns somewhere in their make-up. With careful assessment of > progeny, the trait can probably be restored to the population. > > Let's hope we can gently educate those breeders and judges who have > a rigid view of preference. "True" Jacobs are, fortunately, all > across the map. One of the important aspects of a heritage breed is > its potential for variability. It's one of the things that makes it > tough for judges who perhaps do not understand the nature of > breeding rare lines. There is room for preference here, and lots of > room for variation. > > Susan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nlgrose at yadtel.net Wed Jun 4 05:41:53 2008 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:41:53 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" References: <200863184315.255020@patchwor-efob1t> Message-ID: <003201c8c627$3a1fdcd0$6402a8c0@HAL2> Linda, Good scientists never say "always" and "never"! We say things are more or less probable. Fortunately, I'm not a very good scientist. Our Jacobs have a lot of leg markings and many are lilac AND tend to have soft fleeces. I don't know that these things are particularly related other than they are a fairly primitive sheep. We can expect the more primitive guys to have more fleece inconsistency, As to having more freckling in the fleece, we should also expect that this might go along with more and smaller spots. There are genetic groups that have larger patches and others that have small, numerous patches (which is what we have). At the same time, we have seen freckling decrease with inbreeding. Freckling may be partially due to mixing of types. I have seen several pictures of Jacob sheep pre-1900. They do not seem to follow a particular type, other than being piebald and multi-horned. The horns would not have met the JSBA standard. (Disclaimer: that does not mean that I think that bad horns SHOULD be accepted. Only that symmetry is not a factor of purity.) Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- From: Linda To: aztreaz at earthlink.net ; jacob-list Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" In GENERAL, which means not always true and not supported at all by any research, sheep with a lot of leg flash (not just knee and hock spots) are more likely to be freckled or ticked. Notice how I am avoiding making any definite statement :-) I have seen no correlation between leg markings (facial markings, hornset, body spotting, etc) and fleece quality. Most (not all) of my lilacs have been short on leg markings, but many lilacs have excellent leg markings. Lilacs are rarer and sometimes there is not as large a selection as when we are looking for blacks. There are lilac lines out there with "ideal" "perfect" markings. It's not the color that determines markings. If everyone selected for lilac without paying attention to anything except the color, we could end up with lilacs with poor markings, horns, fleeces, etc. Same as selecting for any specific trait without thought to other traits. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > I have quite a variation of Jacobs and I have observed, in my > flock, that the ones with no leg markings have the best quality > fleeces and no freckles. Going only by "looks", I do prefer leg > markings; but right now the fleeces mean more to me than how the > animal's legs look. I have three lilacs and all have white legs. > Do lilacs usually have no leg markings? > > Cathy > Moscow, Idaho > > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & > Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jacobflock at aol.com Thu Jun 5 14:53:24 2008 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:53:24 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Opinion regarding "true Jacob" Message-ID: The conversation regarding the Jacob and its "trueness" is best framed in the context of a rare breed. I sense some concern about the "breed standard" which also is best framed in the context of a "rare breed" as well as type and variety. Standardized breeds of whatever are described by a standard that PRESCRIBES what the "ideal" specimin looks like; e.g., color, carraige, horns, piebald markings and fleece. It is a breeding guide and objective. Landrace breeds are best described by a DESCRIPTIVE satabdard that takes into account the variability. The conservator probably has greater affinity to the descriptive rather than the standard prescriptibe standard. Hence a descriptive standard would have reco0gnized, for example, those LINES within the breed that had the piebald splash across the knee and presents a white front leg as portrayed by a Jacobs Ladder. Which might lead then to breeding programs, objectives and variability. If we consider types of breediing programs some general types might have terms like: inbreeding (close relatives), line breeding (related but not as closee as inbreeding) whichk results in very uniform progeny....and then.... line crossing (crossing lines within the breed) and crosss breeding (different breeds) which generates high genetic vigor but at the cost of variability. Yes, line crossing introduces variability. For example, the lilacs mentioned in some posts are "pop-up" recessives for some breeders. What the conservator wants to watch is presentasion of the breed defining genetic material without the loss accruing from inbreeding and line breeding; use of one sire or line that carries the potential liability related to "founder effects". It will produce a "standard" look but at a cost of variability and other gbreed traints. People often see the F1 flock ... which in relatity is an F6,7, or 8 flock. When considering some of the earlier mentioned traits (freckles, graying, UV fading, and even ticking) we must also keep in mind that they are genetic products of dominanr and recessive geness ... I guess it is geness with two esses. Sorry for the typows but I try my best to hit the right keys. Fred Horak St. Jude's Farm 1165 E. Lucas Road Lucas, TX 75002 ************** Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?& NCID=aolfod00030000000002) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From stcroft at ptd.net Thu Jun 5 15:42:34 2008 From: stcroft at ptd.net (Susan J Martin) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:42:34 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] (no subject) Message-ID: <00be01c8c744$4d958fd0$57c19818@Ultra> Good to hear from you Fred!! For those of you new to the Jacob breed, Fred Horak has had Jacobs for many, many years, has been involved with Texas A&M research, and is a very knowledgeable resource regarding this great breed of sheep. Thanks again, Fred. Sue Martin Stonecroft -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Thu Jun 5 18:40:43 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:40:43 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fred In-Reply-To: <00be01c8c744$4d958fd0$57c19818@Ultra> Message-ID: <200865184043.286347@patchwor-efob1t> Any time Fred posts, it worth reading and worth saving. I sure hope we'll keep hearing from you, Fred. You always help to clarify things and to put things in perspective. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > Good to hear from you Fred!! > > For those of you new to the Jacob breed, Fred Horak has had Jacobs > for many, many years, has been involved with Texas A&M research, > and is a very knowledgeable resource regarding this great breed of > sheep. > > Thanks again, Fred. > > Sue Martin > Stonecroft -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fabrega at pacbell.net Mon Jun 9 11:33:31 2008 From: fabrega at pacbell.net (Francis Martinez) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 08:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] info please Message-ID: <68420.55823.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have no sheep at this time since I had to return to CA for a year and rented our place in Eastern WA state..so I am in need of untreated, organic wool yarn please--I also want the ability to dye the yarn with organic plant, herbs too.. advice please? I wan to makemy fingerless gloves, socks, scarves, place mats..etc......so, I need reasonable priced yarn..Francie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ncd at mitre.org Mon Jun 9 13:25:48 2008 From: ncd at mitre.org (Donnangelo, Nick) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:25:48 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] info please In-Reply-To: <68420.55823.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <68420.55823.qm@web81701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <90A462F2D6E869478007CD2F65DE877C02589E9D@IMCSRV5.MITRE.ORG> I have perhaps 20 - 25 pounds of raw Jacob fleece, can you work with that or do you need spun yarn? Nick Donnangelo ________________________________ From: jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com [mailto:jacob-list-bounces at jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of Francis Martinez Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 11:34 AM To: jacob sheep Subject: [Jacob-list] info please I have no sheep at this time since I had to return to CA for a year and rented our place in Eastern WA state..so I am in need of untreated, organic wool yarn please--I also want the ability to dye the yarn with organic plant, herbs too.. advice please? I wan to makemy fingerless gloves, socks, scarves, place mats..etc......so, I need reasonable priced yarn..Francie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wedohoney at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 11 12:01:19 2008 From: wedohoney at sbcglobal.net (JACI SIEHL) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:01:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] Blue Eyes Message-ID: <639598.382.qm@web80603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What has been your experience with blue eyes? Remembering my genetics from high school (before DNA!) I thought blue eyes were recessive to brown. However, when I look at flocks with blue eyes, the blue eyes seem to be everywhere. Is that because they are being specifically being bred for blue eyes or is that just what has happened? If a ram has one blue and one brown eye is turned out with all brown-eyed ewes - wouldn't the chances of all brown-eyed lambs be the norm? What do you think the chances are that the blue/brown combination would show up in the lambs? I believe all of my ewes have nothing but brown eyes in their lineage and since I don't really like blue eyes I don't want to change my flock, but I have a chance to get a ram lamb that I like in every aspect except his one blue eye. Jack and Jaci -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Hobsickle at aol.com Wed Jun 11 12:45:09 2008 From: Hobsickle at aol.com (Hobsickle at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 12:45:09 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Blue Eyes Message-ID: I don't know everything there is to know about eye color inheritance, but I do know a couple things. In humans, eye color is way more complicated than your High School Biology teacher may have led you to believe. Darker eye colors are "dominant" to lighter eye colors, but it is not a complete dominance (i.e., colors blend to make greens, hazels, etc.) and it is controlled by multiple loci (i.e., several pairs of genes). Also, the relative number of blue eyes in a population does not relate to the dominance or recessiveness of a gene, but to the how common it was in the preceding generations. (For example blue eyes are much more common in northern Europeans that in most of the rest of the world.) My gut feeling is that in Jacobs spotting genes can influence eye color. I've got at least one sheep with a brown eye and a "spotted" eye--brown in some areas and blue in others. I also wonder if the genes that contribute to lilac might have some influence in eye color. There you go--just a couple of comments. I'm sure there's more to be said on the topic. -Dan **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beryl5145 at wirelessbeehive.com Wed Jun 11 22:57:50 2008 From: beryl5145 at wirelessbeehive.com (Beryl Schwartz) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:57:50 -0600 Subject: [Jacob-list] Blue Eyes (JACI SIEHL) Message-ID: <001101c8cc38$1a059ef0$0201fea9@ET2112> I bred my brown-eyed girls last year to a beautifully marked, blue-eyed ram. Interestingly, among the majority of the lambs, there is a bit of blue coloring around the pupil, with the rest being a muddy brown. Beryl Schwartz Stockton, UT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mjphirschi at dplanet.ch Thu Jun 12 03:43:02 2008 From: mjphirschi at dplanet.ch (Hirschi Monika) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:43:02 +0200 Subject: [Jacob-list] Blue Eyes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello I am new in Jacobs and have not a long experience. I bought a ewe with one blue and brown eye. She got twins. An ewe lamb with two brown eyes and a ram with one in blue and one in brown. I will ask the breeder of the ewe if there were other blue eyes in that line. Monika ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 6:15 PM Subject: Jacob-list Digest, Vol 46, Issue 12 > Send Jacob-list mailing list submissions to > jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > jacob-list-request at jacobsheep.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > jacob-list-owner at jacobsheep.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Jacob-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Blue Eyes (JACI SIEHL) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:01:19 -0700 (PDT) > From: JACI SIEHL > Subject: [Jacob-list] Blue Eyes > To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > Message-ID: <639598.382.qm at web80603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > What has been your experience with blue eyes? > > Remembering my genetics from high school (before DNA!) I thought blue > eyes were recessive to brown. However, when I look at flocks with blue > eyes, the blue eyes seem to be everywhere. Is that because they are being > specifically being bred for blue eyes or is that just what has happened? > > If a ram has one blue and one brown eye is turned out with all brown-eyed > ewes - wouldn't the chances of all brown-eyed lambs be the norm? What do > you think the chances are that the blue/brown combination would show up in > the lambs? > > I believe all of my ewes have nothing but brown eyes in their lineage and > since I don't really like blue eyes I don't want to change my flock, but I > have a chance to get a ram lamb that I like in every aspect except his one > blue eye. > > > > Jack and Jaci > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > > > End of Jacob-list Digest, Vol 46, Issue 12 > ****************************************** > From pegvanbeek at msn.com Thu Jun 12 15:03:05 2008 From: pegvanbeek at msn.com (Marguerite Van Beek) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:03:05 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Ram lamb for Sale out of a 4 horn ram x 5 horn ewe Message-ID: I have a friend that has a four horn ram lamb for sale that is very nice. Anyone interested let me know asap, or they will have him wethered. Peggy Ridgecroft farm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jacobflock at aol.com Fri Jun 13 11:09:13 2008 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:09:13 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Offspring related to "Turner 183K"; DNA study Message-ID: If you have, or, know someone who has, or, can lead me to someone who has, offspring (ram(s) or ewe(s)) that go back to Turner 183K ( a founder ram) I would like to set up contact with you for possible participation in a genetic research project to be conducted by third party labs that may have direct bearing on the long term health of the Jacob breed as well as human health. The proposed study seeks to identify carriers of lysosomal disease through genetic markers and proteins obtained through DNA. While this breed defect was reported to Jacob breeders about five years ago, the work on identifying its cause and a test for the genetic defect has been slow. The speed is apparently going to pick up. The first step of the current study will be the location of Turner 183K offspring and collection of blood for DNA (the same process we used for blood collection for the National Animal Germplasm Program). While the NAGP study examined Jacob DNA for breed genetic distances, this study is looking for one sheeps offspring and specific markers related to carrying the genes for lysosomal disease. As many of you may be aware, the NAGP study posited some interesting results related to the uniqueness of the Jacob through breed distance relationships. Part of this "uniqueness" might be related to the Jacob bottleneck and "close" breeding. One consequence of "close" breeding is the loss of vigor and congenital defects; in this case the lethal congenital defect, lysosomal disease. The lysosomal study is being done at two veterinary schools and one medical research school. Your identity will be kept confidential as well as the identity of any Jacobs included in this study. Finally, we have identified another possible line that has produced a lysosomal sheep; a line that heretofor has been thought to be distinct and separate but may in fact be related to the confirmed cases traced to 183K. This second line, though shown to be unrelated by pedigree records, has not been confirmed because it is only based on two cases. Being a recessive disease, it suggests that a tree of the second line is actually related to Turner 183K. If you can help, it will be of value to the breed and breeders, not to mention the potential help to people afflicted with this life threatening problem. Thank you for any help that you may be able to give. Fred Horak St. Jude's Farm 1165 E. Lucas Road Lucas, TX 75002 ************** Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Gotothewhip at aol.com Mon Jun 16 12:22:10 2008 From: Gotothewhip at aol.com (Gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:22:10 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Any Advice... Sick Sheep Message-ID: A few weeks ago, we separated off some of the sheep to prepare for weaning... Thankfully this ewe was in a small group that didn't have contact with the rest of the flock!... Last Saturday, I found one of my yearlings.. a normally personable yearling ewe laying down when I put out hay..... Definitely not normal..Took her temp, 103.2 (slightly elevated, but in the normal range) but she did have a little bit of a snotty nose... Put her in quarantine with her best buddy.. another yearling ewe.... I knew she wouldn't handle complete isolation, so figured I could deal with it best with her buddy..... We started her on Dura-Pen (Long acting Penicillin with Benz) she spiked a 104.1 fever the next day and she developed green watery scours, so she got a dose of Banamine and Pepto., then on Monday the 2nd dose of Dura-Pen..... Still no improvement .Tuesday, we started the LA-200 Her temp stayed at 102.7-103 The scours cleared up with Pepto the 2nd day, but her attitude seemed pretty depressed and she had not eaten much of anything since Saturday. Took her into the vet.. Her temp was 102.9 at the vet on Wed. nothing abnormal appearing... no snotty nose, and no scours Fecal was normal with no parasites found. he had me start Naxel, and also gave her a Dexmethazine (steroid) shot. We gave her doses of Bio-Sponge orally, as well as electrolytes, and on Thursday she was no better, or worse, I made her an oatmeal gruel and syringed it down her along with a good dose of Lamb Oral drench. I forgot to add.. I had been giving her oral Probiotics all along (Probios) We were gone all weekend.. and honestly would not have been surprised if she didn't make it.... But she did. She has been drinking water well all along..... I have NO OTHER sick sheep in the flock.. even her buddy who has been in the pen with her all along. The sick one did have a 104.0 fever last night, so we dosed her with Banamine again.... Vet is at a loss of what to do next. More antibiotics? or? Any advice? **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hettick1 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 16:14:13 2008 From: hettick1 at yahoo.com (Heather Hettick) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:14:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] trading for a ram lamb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <807220.46832.qm@web51402.mail.re2.yahoo.com> WOuld anyone be interested in trading a ewe or ewe lamb for a ram lamb? I'm in Ohio about an hour SOuth of CLeveland and would prefer to stay close. I have 3 nice ewe lambs and several adult ewes I could trade. I have no Jacob rams right now, but lots of ewes. I would like to sell the ewe lambs. All 3 are black lilac carriers. Two are two horned and one is 4 horned.?They are good looking sheep, I just have too many. If I don't find one, I have an ICleandic ram but would prefer to have some purebred Jacobs next year. COntact me with info about rams, or questions about ewes. Thanks, Heather Hettick Moonstruck Farm Creston, OH? From messen at socket.net Mon Jun 16 19:34:26 2008 From: messen at socket.net (Mark Essen) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:34:26 -0500 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacobs available at Missouri Auction Message-ID: <49F4A917EEF74481B1BFCCBFA3056AC5@famousacresPC> I just noticed that there will be fifty Jacobs lambs at Lolli Brothers auction this July. I am not sure who the consignor is, but Lolli's says that they are from Missouri. The photos on the web page are a bit too far away for any detail, but I think it looks like a nice looking bunch of lambs. The web page for the sale is: http://www.lollibros.com/SheepGoatDomHog.htm By the way, I am not the auction barn, consigner, blah, blah. I just thought is was unusual to see one person selling this many lambs at auction. If the consignor is on this list, could they send me a picture of the ram/rams? Thank you Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aztreaz at earthlink.net Tue Jun 17 15:25:03 2008 From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:25:03 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Sick ewe Message-ID: <410-22008621719253687@earthlink.net> Hopefully, you will receive advice from more experienced folks. I would start to get the rumen going again. Ideally, do a cud transplant from a healthy sheep. When it happened to me, the vets took a cud sample from a cow and gave it to my ewe, I was at the vet school on the campus of WSU. Perhaps the microbes in yogurt and/or Probios will do it. Yogurt with live cultures might do it. I just prefer trying to get the real thing (cud) from another ruminant. Give her plenty of grass hay to get and keep the rumen going. Keep up with the electrolytes if she is still sick, I don't know about giving more antibiotics. Good luck, Cathy Moscow, Idaho From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Tue Jun 17 18:30:45 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:30:45 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Any Advice... Sick Sheep In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2008617183045.491036@patchwor-efob1t> Years ago, I had a ram get tangled in the electric fence and suffer enough nerve damage that he couldn't stand and could only barely move his head. Obviously nothing like the problem with your ewe, but the vet's advice has stayed with me for these last 10 years. "sometimes all you can do is keep them alive until they get better." He felt that my Jacob ram was doing his best to survive, unlike the commercial breeds he'd previously dealt with. Sometimes that is all you can do when you can't determine a cause. The only thing my vet recommended for stress that I don't see that you're doing was B complex injections. BTW - my ram, after 2 weeks, did finally stand and, although he walked with a slight tilt, was fine. Well, until I saw his lambs! Then he was sausage - very expensive sausage. Linda from: Gotothewhip at aol.com, I have NO OTHER sick sheep in the flock.. even her > buddy who has been in the pen with her all along. The sick one did > have a 104.0 fever last night, so we dosed her with Banamine > again.... Vet is at a loss of what to do next. More antibiotics? > or? > > Any advice? www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westergladstone at btinternet.com Wed Jun 18 08:50:59 2008 From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (Juliet & Gordon) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:50:59 +0100 Subject: [Jacob-list] cud transplant Message-ID: <001801c8d143$6ada8920$0201a8c0@Newbox> << I would start to get the rumen going again. Ideally, do a cud transplant from a healthy sheep. >> Cathy, this sounds an excellent idea. Could you tell us exactly how you would do it please. We have some old ladies who drop bits of cud around which would do, but what would we do to get the cud from healthy sheep who would presumably rather hang on to their own cud? Juliet in Scotland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wtg12345 at mac.com Wed Jun 18 18:58:19 2008 From: wtg12345 at mac.com (Woodson Gannaway) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:58:19 +0800 Subject: [Jacob-list] horn, supplies and working with Message-ID: <7DB557B4-8F2D-453C-B594-D2C62CC6DC3A@mac.com> Dear Friends, I came across your list while trying to find info on the net about sheep horns that are black. When I lived in (The Canary Islands,) Spain 15-20 years ago I became an experienced hornworker as part of the work I did there. I guess I worked up 1000-2000 goat and sheep horns during that time. We made them into smallish pieces that were part of the handle of the traditional style knife of that region. For contrast we used both black and amber colored horns. Reading the list archives back a year turned up exactly one person asking about using horn. I wonder: when an animal with good-sized horns dies do you save the horns? If you (plural) don't, would you? I would like to get a small number each year, and maybe some of you would enjoy making things from them too. I am starting to do that same work again now and hope to have supplies of black, white, amber, and whatever other colors of horn are available. Sincerely, Woodson Gannaway From fourhornfarm at verizon.net Thu Jun 19 09:29:45 2008 From: fourhornfarm at verizon.net (fourhornfarm) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:29:45 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] horn, supplies and working with References: <7DB557B4-8F2D-453C-B594-D2C62CC6DC3A@mac.com> Message-ID: <001201c8d210$8a906e10$4001a8c0@DollyLama> Hello Woodson, We save our horns and skulls and I have made knives, letter openers, shepherds' hooks and walking sticks with horn handles. Please visit our web site at www.4hornfarm.com Carl Fosbrink ----- Original Message ----- From: "Woodson Gannaway" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:58 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] horn, supplies and working with > Dear Friends, > > I came across your list while trying to find info on the net about sheep > horns that are black. When I lived in (The Canary Islands,) Spain 15-20 > years ago I became an experienced hornworker as part of the work I did > there. I guess I worked up 1000-2000 goat and sheep horns during that > time. We made them into smallish pieces that were part of the handle of > the traditional style knife of that region. For contrast we used both > black and amber colored horns. > > Reading the list archives back a year turned up exactly one person asking > about using horn. I wonder: when an animal with good-sized horns dies do > you save the horns? If you (plural) don't, would you? I would like to get > a small number each year, and maybe some of you would enjoy making things > from them too. > > I am starting to do that same work again now and hope to have supplies of > black, white, amber, and whatever other colors of horn are available. > > Sincerely, > Woodson Gannaway > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks > Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list > From gbanderson at ucdavis.edu Thu Jun 19 20:21:22 2008 From: gbanderson at ucdavis.edu (Gary Anderson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:21:22 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Updated website Message-ID: <85C9122BEAA0454AB883C2ABEAFC34F2@GBAndersonLT1> We have updated our website (www.hillsidejacobs.com ) to include current photos of ram lambs we have available for sale. We have a good selection of both two- and four-horned ram lambs that will registered in the JSBA flock book in the D, E, F, and G generations. Our lambs were born in early April. We are looking for a four-horned, E- or F-generation ram for the fall breeding season. If you have such a ram, live within reasonable driving distance of Lower Michigan, and see one of our ram lambs for which you might be willing to arrange a trade, please contact me off-list. Thank you. Gary Anderson Hillside Jacobs Sparta, Michigan (10 miles north of Grand Rapids) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wtg12345 at mac.com Thu Jun 19 20:29:08 2008 From: wtg12345 at mac.com (Woodson Gannaway) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:29:08 +0800 Subject: [Jacob-list] more horn, supplies and working with Message-ID: <5419568D-5614-4308-902A-383FA64DA5B3@mac.com> Hi, I got a number of individual replies; I'll send this general info reply to the list and hope that's OK. I'm an American who lived in Spain 1987-1994 and learned to work horn as a part of my work there. I worked for a master Canary knife maker, an older man who grew up in the trade and did everything marvelously well with few words, great economy of motion and in a simple and direct way. So forgive me if I assume some things are obvious when they are not. Now I live in NE China, city of Dalian, so the matter of shipping is not a given. Horn: nature's thermoplastic, as one friend put it so well, provides beautiful articles that can be made with simple tools. Before plastic there was horn. After drying a few months it is cut to a smaller size and rough shape, heated to soften, then flattened in a vise between two steel plates. Hot it's soft, cool it's not, so after cooling it stays flat. It's easy to saw, file, drill, cut, carve and polish. So the basics of working with horn are no problem. Size: for me at least, the little ones are useless. I'm looking for water buffalo horns here now and I tell people "the heavier the better" to help get the horns I want. If the outside surface is more or less even then a wall 3/8 inch or more thick is usable. My finished pieces are usually between 3/8 and 3/4 inch thick (after flattening and filing). In an older animal and male the horn will not be bone- filled for much of its length and will have more solid, not hollow horn material (and this tends to be thicker). Price: Never gotten any in the U.S. In Spain it was a valuable part of the tradition so no one ever asked a penny for horns, and one person provided me with hundreds and hundreds of pounds over several years. He not only didn't ask for pay, he refused pay. So I gave him one of the best knives I ever made as a present. Here I pay between a few cents and a dollar a pound for green horns with the bone, so far. Color: for me, black, white, black and white striped are the most desirable. I'd be happy to experiment with browns. Amber (yellow) color is all I get here (was it bred for that?) and I have plenty, don't need any. These are from the normal domestic sheep and goats. I've never seen horn from the kind of sheep that you keep. Shipping: Will the people who sometimes bring me books in their suitcase bring me horns? Don't know. I seldom go to the U.S. I think the days of shipping boxes overseas cheaply via the post office are gone. So that's open to suggestions. Hope this is helpful, don't want it to get too long. Thanks, Woodson From wedohoney at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 20 13:22:16 2008 From: wedohoney at sbcglobal.net (JACI SIEHL) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] Immediate stock reduction in Northern California Message-ID: <163050.8723.qm@web80604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Like everyone else, the cost of fuel and hay are hitting me hard - plus I am in between jobs.....needless to say I need to reduce my flock by 3 or 4 animals......Priced to sell. Take a look at the flock on my website www.geocities.com-sugarpine_jacobs.com. I will be updating pictures in the next couple of days. Please call me if you want to do some dealing. Jaci 530-538-9474 Jack and Jaci -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gotothewhip at aol.com Fri Jun 20 20:00:19 2008 From: gotothewhip at aol.com (gotothewhip at aol.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:00:19 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs Message-ID: <8CAA148ED7199FC-17C8-52E@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com> Hi all, I am curious of your opinions... We showed our sheep and fleeces at Estes park..... The judge was extremely complimentary of our sheep conformation and fleece quality, but came back to the barn to speak with me, as he he said he had a big problem with the wool on many of my sheep.... and that I would have done much better if this could be addressed.. He said that I had incredible quality, crimp and texture.. however he was seeing wool breaks in most all of my sheep.? He said the type of wool breaks he was seeing was consistant with a feeding issue.? Most often this is seen in overly THIN animals.. however, my seep are all a bit overweight, and have had no periods of being thin.? we talked at length about my feeding program, housing and the like... He was really into this conversation as he said I had incredible animals, and if we could get this issue cleaned up it would be amazing..... After talking about my feeding situation (Mostly 1st cutting alfalfa, ewes are supp lemented with a corn or COB grain mix during gestation , and lambs are offered free choice 18% Purina Lamb Starter until 4 months) he was concerened that we are feeding too much protein.? Looking at my options... and after discussion with the local extension agent... I am thinking that we continue with alfalfa, but at a MUCH smaller amount... fed twice daily... but to also put out a low quality grass hay bale for roughage.? Basically... I would be feeding about 1/4 flake of alfalfa (about 1 lb)?per head each day and then free choice of basically a "filler" hay.....Currently, I am feeding about 3.5 lbs hay per head of the 1st cutting alfalfa.. which tested at 16-18% protein Now neither the extension agent or the judge have Jacobs or primitve breeds... so they both suggsted that I speak with my peers. Jennifer Tucker MooseMtnRanch.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wedohoney at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 20 21:53:23 2008 From: wedohoney at sbcglobal.net (JACI SIEHL) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs In-Reply-To: <8CAA148ED7199FC-17C8-52E@WEBMAIL-MB08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <753725.39556.qm@web80602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> We've been going through this discussion as well.....not about woolbreaks but what is the nutritional need of our sheep.....most of the people (including vets) I talk to locally raise meat sheep so they look at it differently than those of us not trying to pack on muscle. I always feed just once a day, in the evening. I used to feed alfalfa, but found my sheep got spoiled. They would eat the leaves but refused to eat the stems. They tossed the stems on the ground and that ended up as compost in my garden. It got WAY to expensive. I solved this problem by rationing. If there were too many stems left, we gave them less new hay the next day (and since I am sure sheep can count, they noticed and complained). This way they would end up eating most of the stems with very little waste. Last year I changed to grass (a pasture/blue grass mix or alfalfa/grass mix). They get a little bit more in terms of quantity (which makes them happy). With the grass hays they get about 3 lbs a day. Even with this they seldom eat all the hay that they get each day so every few days they get a little bit less and clean up the scraps. (It averages about 20 lbs a week per animal). Although we don't have pasture for them, there is some grass growing around some of our trees that they snack on, as well as leaves and bark; but not enough to hardly count. They do not get grain as a rule, but do get COB as a treat once in awhile. In our area of Northern California grass and alfalfa are about the same price ($13 - $15 for a 110 lb bale). What cost me $600 to feed them last year will cost me about $1,000 this year - so I will be watching their intake even closer this year to make sure no one goes hungry, but making sure the feed isn't wasted. One person I spoke to said that the nutrition of a grass hay 2 - 5 years old is nearly that of fresh cut (maybe 5% less). Anyone know if this is true? I can get some of last year's hay (even their favorite one) for only $11/bale, but I don't want to throw my money out on feed that won't do them any good. Any ideas? That's my 2 cents worth. I hope to hear from others on this subject. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pcj at efn.org Fri Jun 20 23:41:34 2008 From: pcj at efn.org (Penelope) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:41:34 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs In-Reply-To: <33259721.1214006836825.JavaMail.root@m04> References: <33259721.1214006836825.JavaMail.root@m04> Message-ID: <485C786E.7000902@efn.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schmick54 at aol.com Sat Jun 21 00:01:17 2008 From: schmick54 at aol.com (schmick54 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:01:17 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fwd: Jacob photo? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA16A96ECF63A-14D8-3058@webmail-nc10.sysops.aol.com> Send in your photos! The editor will be overwhelmed !! Mick -----Original Message----- From: Jean Teller To: information at jsba.org Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 1:32 pm Subject: Jacob photo? Hello, ? Grit Magazine is a national rural lifestyles publication based in Topeka, Kansas. In our September/October issue, we have a guide to sheep breeds, and the Jacob breed is included. We were hoping you might help us with a high-resolution, color photograph or two to illustrate the breed. We could include the association?s Web address and contact information with the article. ? Do you have any suggestions where I might find photos? Our deadline is next week, and I will be out of the office on Monday. ? Our art department prefers jpgs or tifs, at least 300 dpi, and as large a photo as possible. Our Web site is www.Grit.com, if you?d like to check out the magazine. Thanks for your help! ? Sincerely, Jean Teller Senior Associate Editor Grit Magazine 1503 S.W. 42nd St. Topeka, KS 66609 (800) 678-5779, extension 4351 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schmick54 at aol.com Sat Jun 21 00:26:27 2008 From: schmick54 at aol.com (schmick54 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:26:27 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fwd: Fwd: Jacob photo? In-Reply-To: <8CAA16A96ECF63A-14D8-3058@webmail-nc10.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAA16A96ECF63A-14D8-3058@webmail-nc10.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CAA16E1B0129AA-14D8-3128@webmail-nc10.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: schmick54 at aol.com To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:01 pm Subject: [Jacob-list] Fwd: Jacob photo? Send in your photos! The editor will be overwhelmed !! Mick -----Original Message----- From: Jean Teller To: information at jsba.org Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 1:32 pm Subject: Jacob photo? Hello, ? Grit Magazine is a national rural lifestyles publication based in Topeka, Kansas. In our September/October issue, we have a guide to sheep breeds, and the Jacob breed is included. We were hoping you might help us with a high-resolution, color photograph or two to illustrate the breed. We could include the association?s Web address and contact information with the article. ? Do you have any suggestions where I might find photos? Our deadline is next week, and I will be out of the office on Monday. ? Our art department prefers jpgs or tifs, at least 300 dpi, and as large a photo as possible. Our Web site is www.Grit.com, if you?d like to check out the magazine. Thanks for your help! ? Sincerely, Jean Teller Senior Associate Editor Grit Magazine 1503 S.W. 42nd St. Topeka, KS 66609 (800) 678-5779, extension 4351 ? Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news, & more! _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schmick54 at aol.com Sat Jun 21 00:42:59 2008 From: schmick54 at aol.com (schmick54 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:42:59 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fwd: Jacob photo? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA1706A1CFCD6-14D8-319D@webmail-nc10.sysops.aol.com> Send in your photos !! Mick -----Original Message----- From: Jean Teller To: information at jsba.org Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 1:32 pm Subject: Jacob photo? Hello, ? Grit Magazine is a national rural lifestyles publication based in Topeka, Kansas. In our September/October issue, we have a guide to sheep breeds, and the Jacob breed is included. We were hoping you might help us with a high-resolution, color photograph or two to illustrate the breed. We could include the association?s Web address and contact information with the article. ? Do you have any suggestions where I might find photos? Our deadline is next week, and I will be out of the office on Monday. ? Our art department prefers jpgs or tifs, at least 300 dpi, and as large a photo as possible. Our Web site is www.Grit.com, if you?d like to check out the magazine. Thanks for your help! ? Sincerely, Jean Teller Senior Associate Editor Grit Magazine 1503 S.W. 42nd St. Topeka, KS 66609 (800) 678-5779, extension 4351 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schmick54 at aol.com Sat Jun 21 00:59:35 2008 From: schmick54 at aol.com (schmick54 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:59:35 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fwd: Jacob photo? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CAA172BB39F9A3-798-6EAB@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> Send in your photos !! Mick -----Original Message----- From: Jean Teller To: information at jsba.org Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 1:32 pm Subject: Jacob photo? Hello, ? Grit Magazine is a national rural lifestyles publication based in Topeka, Kansas. In our September/October issue, we have a guide to sheep breeds, and the Jacob breed is included. We were hoping you might help us with a high-resolution, color photograph or two to illustrate the breed. We could include the association?s Web address and contact information with the article. ? Do you have any suggestions where I might find photos? Our deadline is next week, and I will be out of the office on Monday. ? Our art department prefers jpgs or tifs, at least 300 dpi, and as large a photo as possible. Our Web site is www.Grit.com, if you?d like to check out the magazine. Thanks for your help! ? Sincerely, Jean Teller Senior Associate Editor Grit Magazine 1503 S.W. 42nd St. Topeka, KS 66609 (800) 678-5779, extension 4351 ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lgrisner at earthlink.net Sun Jun 22 10:54:36 2008 From: lgrisner at earthlink.net (Gail) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:54:36 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [Jacob-list] Question- - Ram purchase, legit??? Message-ID: <6476473.1214146476662.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marytonkin at comcast.net Sun Jun 22 12:06:42 2008 From: marytonkin at comcast.net (marytonkin at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 16:06:42 +0000 Subject: [Jacob-list] Ram purchase Message-ID: <062220081606.4514.485E7892000B7B23000011A2220588911602070502019B979D0E03@comcast.net> When I get these calls or email from people inquiring about sheep I ALWAYS question them. I ask what are you looking for, male/female, adult/lamb and what their intentions are for buying sheep. Are they just buying sheep for pets/lawn mowers, breeding stock, meat or something else. I also ask if they have ever had or raised sheep before and if not I refer them to sources that have a lot of information. Most times if I don't know the people or about them I visit their place to see if they are set up properly. In fact a lady wants me to stop by later today to visit her before I deliver a ewe lamb and wether. I feel it is smart to know exactly where your animals are going and how they will be cared for and I always follow up a week later with a phone call to see how the animal is doing and to see if they have any further questions. I hope this helps, I know it works for me. -- Mary Tonkin Shadow Mountain Jacobs Buckley, Washington www.shadowmountainjacobs.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Sun Jun 22 18:37:14 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:37:14 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Question- - Ram purchase, legit??? In-Reply-To: <6476473.1214146476662.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2008622183714.145478@patchwor-efob1t> Why don't you just ask him? Do trophy hunters waste the meat? Just asking, as I don't know if they do or not. What's the difference between taking a ram to the butcher (no fighting chance there and a frightening situation for the ram, I'm sure) and selling one to be shot out of doors? Assuming that someone does eat the meat from hunting ranches. Not starting an argument, just curious. I have a few buyers that purchase ram lambs for religious holidays. I'm not really sure I see the difference between a ram being ritualistically butchered, taken to a slaughter house,or getting shot out in a field. Best case scenario would be if all our ram lambs were breeding quality and we had buyers for all of them. And pet homes for all the wether quality ram lambs. And a retirement home for those old rams we can't use anymore. What does everyone do with rams you just can't use? Even with spectacular ram lambs, there is a limited market in most areas. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > I recieved an email from someone who said they had checked out our > web site and are interested in buying 4 horned rams. There was no > reference to them having a farm, so I'm wondering if this is > another "Hunting Ranch" looking for 4 horned rams for their > customers to shoot. Have any of you ever heard of a fella by the > name of - - -Robert Grahm? His email address is: reg464 at yahoo.com. > > I don't have a problem with people hunting. I grew up hunting with > my dad and what we shot we ate. I don't believe in trophy hunting > and wasting the meat. I also believe the animals deserve to have a > fighting chance, not fed so they will be an easy target. There's no > honor in hunting this way! > > Off the soap box- - - I just wondered if anyone else has been > approached by this guy? > > Thanks in advance for any info, > > Gail www.loveormoneyexotics.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nlgrose at yadtel.net Mon Jun 23 04:41:25 2008 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 04:41:25 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs References: <753725.39556.qm@web80602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004501c8d50c$ecdadf70$6402a8c0@HAL2> Sheep are going to eat to meet their energy needs. You don't mention the energy level of the feeds you are talking about here. I am going to guess that in Northern California, 16% protein alfalfa is about 68% Total Digestible Nutrients or about 65mcals/lb. Here in North Carolina, 16% P alfalfa would only be about 60% TDN. The relative energy value on grass hay would be lower. They will have to eat more of the grass hay than the alfalfa to meet their needs. If these are adult non-lactating sheep, then they need a ration that is only 60% TDN and 11-12% protein. Good quality alfalfa would be over-feeding these sheep. But, the extra calcium might be useful in recharging the bone reserves after lactation. Regardless of breed, lactating ewes and growing lambs need a total ration that is 72% TDN and 16% protein to maintain consistent growth. They can get this through additional grain or from milk from their mothers. The only other source to boost energy is to obtain it from selective grazing of early vegetative growth. Or from picking the leaves out of the alfalfa. I don't think it matters whether you are feeding grass or alfalfa. Storage of hay shouldn't reduce the value enough to worry about as long as it is kept in a dry barn. You can always send off a feed sample to a lab to make sure. (Or ask your supplier for a test result.) Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- From: JACI SIEHL To: gotothewhip at aol.com ; jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs We've been going through this discussion as well.....not about woolbreaks but what is the nutritional need of our sheep.....most of the people (including vets) I talk to locally raise meat sheep so they look at it differently than those of us not trying to pack on muscle. I always feed just once a day, in the evening. I used to feed alfalfa, but found my sheep got spoiled. They would eat the leaves but refused to eat the stems. They tossed the stems on the ground and that ended up as compost in my garden. It got WAY to expensive. I solved this problem by rationing. If there were too many stems left, we gave them less new hay the next day (and since I am sure sheep can count, they noticed and complained). This way they would end up eating most of the stems with very little waste. Last year I changed to grass (a pasture/blue grass mix or alfalfa/grass mix). They get a little bit more in terms of quantity (which makes them happy). With the grass hays they get about 3 lbs a day. Even with this they seldom eat all the hay that they get each day so every few days they get a little bit less and clean up the scraps. (It averages about 20 lbs a week per animal). Although we don't have pasture for them, there is some grass growing around some of our trees that they snack on, as well as leaves and bark; but not enough to hardly count. They do not get grain as a rule, but do get COB as a treat once in awhile. In our area of Northern California grass and alfalfa are about the same price ($13 - $15 for a 110 lb bale). What cost me $600 to feed them last year will cost me about $1,000 this year - so I will be watching their intake even closer this year to make sure no one goes hungry, but making sure the feed isn't wasted. One person I spoke to said that the nutrition of a grass hay 2 - 5 years old is nearly that of fresh cut (maybe 5% less). Anyone know if this is true? I can get some of last year's hay (even their favorite one) for only $11/bale, but I don't want to throw my money out on feed that won't do them any good. Any ideas? That's my 2 cents worth. I hope to hear from others on this subject. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aztreaz at earthlink.net Mon Jun 23 19:55:34 2008 From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 16:55:34 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs Message-ID: <410-220086123235534578@earthlink.net> --Jaci wrote: >One person I spoke to said that the nutrition of a grass hay 2 - 5 years old is nearly that of fresh cut (maybe 5% less). Anyone know if this >is true? I can get some of last year's hay (even their favorite one) for only $11/bale, but I don't want to throw my money out on feed that >won't do them any good. Any ideas? > >That's my 2 cents worth. I hope to hear from others on this subject ========== I have heard that hay is good for two years providing it is stored correctly. Our hay is stored in a cool, dry barn. This year we are buying last year's hay at a reduced cost. If alfalfa is stored long term in a warm, dry location then the vitamins are the first to diminish, particularly loss of vitamin A. Some of the bagged feed pellets contain vitamins and makes a good supplement when feeding old hay. Last year's hay is $9.00 for either grass or alfalfa at the feed store. We can get last year's grass hay for $5.00 a bale from the farmer. I don't know what new hay will cost this year, probably very high. On the topic of animal feed, I just paid $14.00 for a 50 lb bag of chicken layer feed. Cathy Moscow, Idaho From patchworkfibers at alltel.net Mon Jun 23 20:25:15 2008 From: patchworkfibers at alltel.net (Linda) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:25:15 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs In-Reply-To: <004501c8d50c$ecdadf70$6402a8c0@HAL2> Message-ID: <2008623202515.028440@patchwor-efob1t> Can you see any reason that feeding alfalfa - or any feed for that matter - would cause a break in the wool? I've had sheep with wool breaks - once seriously enough that all the wool fell off and the lamb had to wear a pink sweater. That break was due to a serious parasite load. Although I've heard that you can see a break in the fleece if you shear after lambing, I haven't seen that. I do shear before lambing these days, but that's for my convenience. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > Sheep are going to eat to meet their energy needs. You don't > mention the energy level of the feeds you are talking about here. I > am going to guess that in Northern California, 16% protein alfalfa > is about 68% Total Digestible Nutrients or about 65mcals/lb. Here > in North Carolina, 16% P alfalfa would only be about 60% TDN. The > relative energy value on grass hay would be lower. They will have > to eat more of the grass hay than the alfalfa to meet their needs. > > If these are adult non-lactating sheep, then they need a ration > that is only 60% TDN and 11-12% protein. Good quality alfalfa would > be over-feeding these sheep. But, the extra calcium might be useful > in recharging the bone reserves after lactation. > > Regardless of breed, lactating ewes and growing lambs need a total > ration that is 72% TDN and 16% protein to maintain consistent > growth. They can get this through additional grain or from milk > from their mothers. The only other source to boost energy is to > obtain it from selective grazing of early vegetative growth. Or > from picking the leaves out of the alfalfa. > > I don't think it matters whether you are feeding grass or alfalfa. > Storage of hay shouldn't reduce the value enough to worry about as > long as it is kept in a dry barn. You can always send off a feed > sample to a lab to make sure. (Or ask your supplier for a test > result.) > > Neal Grose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wedohoney at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 23 21:56:27 2008 From: wedohoney at sbcglobal.net (JACI SIEHL) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs In-Reply-To: <2008623202515.028440@patchwor-efob1t> Message-ID: <415132.74895.qm@web80602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have heard that some sheep will have a woolbreak just from going from one type of feed to another (alfalfa to grass or adding or removing large quantities of grain). Don't know if it is a sudden change in nutrition or what - and I haven't seen any "proof" of this - only what I have been told. And, I haven't been told of this in Jacob sheep - but I believe from a Romney owner. I still go back to the fact that Jacob are a primitive breed that has thrived on such a wide range of environments and seem to do fine. I don't like to overthink or make things more complicated than they need to be. And, my sheep do not seem to have suffered from my "minimal" management (other than a case of selenium deficiency this year when I thought they were getting enough from the mineral salt block). I surly don't want to cause my sheep to become dependent upon too much interference like the "improved" breeds that need constant care and attention just to survive. Linda wrote: Can you see any reason that feeding alfalfa - or any feed for that matter - would cause a break in the wool? I've had sheep with wool breaks - once seriously enough that all the wool fell off and the lamb had to wear a pink sweater. That break was due to a serious parasite load. Although I've heard that you can see a break in the fleece if you shear after lambing, I haven't seen that. I do shear before lambing these days, but that's for my convenience. Linda www.patchworkfibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep, Angora Rabbits, Handspun Yarn > Sheep are going to eat to meet their energy needs. You don't > mention the energy level of the feeds you are talking about here. I > am going to guess that in Northern California, 16% protein alfalfa > is about 68% Total Digestible Nutrients or about 65mcals/lb. Here > in North Carolina, 16% P alfalfa would only be about 60% TDN. The > relative energy value on grass hay would be lower. They will have > to eat more of the grass hay than the alfalfa to meet their needs. > > If these are adult non-lactating sheep, then they need a ration > that is only 60% TDN and 11-12% protein. Good quality alfalfa would > be over-feeding these sheep. But, the extra calcium might be useful > in recharging the bone reserves after lactation. > > Regardless of breed, lactating ewes and growing lambs need a total > ration that is 72% TDN and 16% protein to maintain consistent > growth. They can get this through additional grain or from milk > from their mothers. The only other source to boost energy is to > obtain it from selective grazing of early vegetative growth. Or > from picking the leaves out of the alfalfa. > > I don't think it matters whether you are feeding grass or alfalfa. > Storage of hay shouldn't reduce the value enough to worry about as > long as it is kept in a dry barn. You can always send off a feed > sample to a lab to make sure. (Or ask your supplier for a test > result.) > > Neal Grose _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list Jack and Jaci -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westergladstone at btinternet.com Tue Jun 24 06:54:31 2008 From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (Juliet & Gordon) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:54:31 +0100 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs - wool break References: <415132.74895.qm@web80602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009801c8d5e8$af14bd00$0201a8c0@Newbox> Could this apparent wool break be just the natural 'rise'? If you are shearing early ie well before June , then the 'rise' would be seen part way along the wool fibre at the next shearing and could be taken for a weakness. Here we shear in June, using hand shears, and cut through the thinner area of the rise, so each fleece contains only one year's wool. This leaves about half to one inch of new wool growth on the sheep. Juliet in Scotland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ACAMDA at aol.com Tue Jun 24 08:52:06 2008 From: ACAMDA at aol.com (ACAMDA at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:52:06 EDT Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs Message-ID: Neal - Thanks for the information on alfalfa. In anticipation of another long, dry summer here in the South, Greg and I have been looking to stock up on first cut hay in the field. We found rye for $3.00 per square bale. Fescue is running $6.50 or so. How does rye grass stack up - nutrition wise? My vet suggested using the poorest hay we could find, saying it was actually better for the sheep since they are primitive animals. He says it makes US feel better when we feed better hay. I take that with a grain of salt, but thought it was interesting. Kathey **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westergladstone at btinternet.com Tue Jun 24 08:59:00 2008 From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (Juliet & Gordon) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:59:00 +0100 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs - wool break References: <415132.74895.qm@web80602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <009801c8d5e8$af14bd00$0201a8c0@Newbox> <001e01c8d5ea$da728160$bead72d8@USER5AFE0954BF> Message-ID: <001401c8d5fa$147855b0$0201a8c0@Newbox> A rise isn't the same thing as shedding (which our Soays are busy doing just now). All sheep will have a rise in their wool. In rams and unbred ewes it can be almost indiscernable but in ewes it's usually pretty apparent. Our Jacobs certainly produced a rise and didn't shed - nor should they. Gordon. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From info at brenalanfarm.com Tue Jun 24 12:17:29 2008 From: info at brenalanfarm.com (Brenalan Farm) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 09:17:29 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] alfalfa cuttings Message-ID: <007801c8d615$cd1a0170$0a00a8c0@searlecenter> I would appreciate hearing more about how the different cuttings of alfalfa compare and which are most suitable for Jacobs. Lately our prices have been very comparable for grass hay vs. alfalfa. It also seems that whether Jacobs need alfalfa or not, most of our show winners are getting it. Another question I have is about the relative value of pasture at different moisture levels. Sometimes I have grass that looks fabulous, but it doesn't seem to "grow" sheep better than the dryer grass once the rain slows. My intuition is that some of our rainy season grass is hardly more than green water. I appreciate all the good info shared on this list about feeding. Brenda -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From schmick54 at aol.com Tue Jun 24 13:33:58 2008 From: schmick54 at aol.com (schmick54 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:33:58 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] alfalfa cuttings In-Reply-To: <007801c8d615$cd1a0170$0a00a8c0@searlecenter> References: <007801c8d615$cd1a0170$0a00a8c0@searlecenter> Message-ID: <8CAA4379DD69EB4-3E8-11A8@webmail-nc18.sysops.aol.com> There are four cuttings of alfalfa. First cutting stays in the ground longer. It's very rich. second cutting has the shortest growing period. It's perfect for general feeding for most of the year. third cutting is picked usually in September, finer and abundant leaves, richer. Fourth cutting isn't too common because there might not be time for it to grow depending on the length of the season. Fourth? is VERY rich--too much protein, not necessary. Third cutting is excellent for lactating ewes and before lambing. Rams don't need any more than second cutting. Mick -----Original Message----- From: Brenalan Farm To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:17 am Subject: [Jacob-list] alfalfa cuttings I would appreciate hearing more about how the different cuttings of alfalfa compare and which are most suitable for Jacobs. Lately our prices have been very comparable for grass hay vs. alfalfa. It also seems that whether Jacobs need alfalfa or not, most of our show winners are getting it. Another question I have is about the relative value of pasture at different moisture levels. Sometimes I have grass that looks fabulous, but it doesn't seem to "grow" sheep better than the dryer grass once the rain slows. My intuition is that some of our rainy season grass is hardly more than green water. I appreciate all the good info shared on this list about feeding. ? Brenda _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From westergladstone at btinternet.com Tue Jun 24 14:16:56 2008 From: westergladstone at btinternet.com (Juliet & Gordon) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 19:16:56 +0100 Subject: [Jacob-list] rise and shed References: <007801c8d615$cd1a0170$0a00a8c0@searlecenter> Message-ID: <001f01c8d626$7e5cee60$0201a8c0@Newbox> << What is the difference between a rise and shedding?>> It seems to be different in the US and UK. Over here, the rise is found to a greater or lesser extent in most breeds, where wool growth has slowed naturally over the winter. Most sheep are shorn in June and with hand shears the cut is made through the rise. With machine shearing at the same time the cut is of course much closer to the skin so part of the new growth gets taken with the old, which is not nice for hand spinning. In breeds which naturally roo or shed their wool, such as the Soay and Shetland, the rise is where, as Betty says, the old fleece is separated from the new. Other breeds which do not naturally roo will not lose their fleeces because of the rise - those accidentally missed for shearing will carry clearly differentiated layers of wool, one per year. Again as Betty says, perhaps by shearing earlier in March you are cutting through the rise when it is just above skin level, so you would not normally see it. If however you routinely shear in January for housed sheep, the weaker area of the rise would be found along the length of the fibre shaft, masquerading as an unnatural weakness. I wonder also if climatic differences between the States and here mean that in some areas the rise in wool is not so clearly differentiated. Were that the case then there would be a difference between sheep in different states. I think temperature as well as nutrition would play a part in how well marked the rise is. Here we use 'shedding' (as opposed to 'rooing' or 'natural shedding') to mean losing the wool as the result of illness or disease, also called woolslip. Semantics ! We have just returned from our 4 day stint at the Royal Highland Show in Edinburgh, showing our Hebrideans. As usual we were shocked at the huge size of some of the Jacobs on offer (not all this time). The one huge ram I picked out as having horrible horns which crossed behind his back, with side horns far too close to his cheeks, a bit down on his pasterns and far too much white in his fleece went on to win the male Championship ! I love American Jacobs ! Juliet in Scotland. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aztreaz at earthlink.net Tue Jun 24 16:25:39 2008 From: aztreaz at earthlink.net (ARTHUR PARTRIDGE) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:25:39 -0700 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs - wool break Message-ID: <410-220086224202539115@earthlink.net> I had two sheep with wool breaks this last spring. This has never happened before. The ewe and the wether are related so it could be a genetic propensity. The ewe lost wool on the front half of her body. I think it could be age related, she is 11 yrs old. The 2-yr old wether lost wool from his back. I think it was mostly from stress. The other wethers and two rams seem to pick on him, he must be at the bottom of the social order. A younger wether is going in this year so that might change the social order. So besides feeding, parasite load, and illness; perhaps age and stress can be added to the many causes of wool break? Cathy Moscow, Idaho From nlgrose at yadtel.net Tue Jun 24 20:36:43 2008 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 20:36:43 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs References: Message-ID: <007d01c8d65b$8b53ebc0$6402a8c0@HAL2> I don't buy the idea that we should feed Jacobs the poorest quality hay we can find. They really aren't that much different in nutrient needs than some others. It depends on stage of lactation and growth. A ewe feeding twins in good growth is doing the same work load as a human running a marathon EVERY DAY. Lambs have to have good feed in order to maintain good rates of gain. On the other hand, rams and ewes at maintenance will do just fine on mature forage. That said, grain rye should have been mowed before the seed head showed in March or the first week in April here in NC. Palatability is a pretty good guide to energy content and nutrition. Goats are not more efficient than cows, they are just more selective browsers. Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: ACAMDA at aol.com To: jacob-list at jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 8:52 AM Subject: Re: [Jacob-list] Feeding Jacobs Neal - Thanks for the information on alfalfa. In anticipation of another long, dry summer here in the South, Greg and I have been looking to stock up on first cut hay in the field. We found rye for $3.00 per square bale. Fescue is running $6.50 or so. How does rye grass stack up - nutrition wise? My vet suggested using the poorest hay we could find, saying it was actually better for the sheep since they are primitive animals. He says it makes US feel better when we feed better hay. I take that with a grain of salt, but thought it was interesting. Kathey ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list, sponsored by Swallow Lane Farm & Fiberworks Jacob-list at jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From beegal7 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 25 10:40:26 2008 From: beegal7 at yahoo.com (Meg Steensland) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] Need a ram? Message-ID: <750027.4406.qm@web31503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is time to re-evaluate the flock members here in OHIO and I would like to offer some Jacobs for sale: ? I have two 2007 registered rams both 2H - either one your choice for $150 - can send reg pix today - need to get updated ones as of June 2008.? I also have a 4H lilac dark ram from Moonstruck Farm?that is not registered for $100. ? We have a fine selection of 2008 Jacob ewes that are ready to go to new homes as well as several 2007 ewes? - if you know anyone wanting a starter flock here in OH, please consider sending them here as I will fit them with a young flock, one young adult ewe that has lambed and 2 or more ewe lambs?- not elders or culls.? ? 2008 ewe lambs ? $200-your choice 2H or 4H color of fiber?blue-eyes brown eyes; $150-my choice will be registerable-excludes blue-eyed and lilacs $100- low color ewes that will likely NOT pass JSBA registration ? I also have a few (7) 2008?non-Jacobs FiVE Navajo-Churros (3e/2r) and one Jacaob-churro ram and one Jacob-Cotswold ewe if anyone wants to try another fiber type. ? Thanks for reviewng this. ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avillionfarm at avillionfarm.com Wed Jun 25 13:01:12 2008 From: avillionfarm at avillionfarm.com (avillionfarm at avillionfarm.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:01:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Jacob-list] out of season breeding & feeding jacobs Message-ID: <18174.134.67.6.14.1214413272.squirrel@webmail.hostgator.com> I sheared a flock of Jacobs in early June. These sheep were not bred last fall due to the drought and hay shortage prevalent in the SE U.S. and spent the winter eating corn stover with occasional grain and dried beet pulp. All are condition score 3-4 and didn't need worming at shearing. They are all also obviously cycling. My question is this: what are other people's experiences with trying to breed jacobs off season? Also if you want to produce a terminal meat cross off of jacob ewes, what breed of ram would be recommended? Thanks, Elaina From pegvanbeek at msn.com Sat Jun 28 22:28:29 2008 From: pegvanbeek at msn.com (Marguerite Van Beek) Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 22:28:29 -0400 Subject: [Jacob-list] NJ State Fair Message-ID: Just a reminder about the NJ State Fair being Held this year August 2 & 3. Here is their link http://www.newjerseystatefair.org/documents/49Sheep.pdf Sorry for the late reminder. Hope some of the Jacob breeders can attend. If you have any questions just send me an email pegvanbeek at msn.com Peggy Ridgecroft Farm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: