From wolfpen at rabun.net Thu Oct 3 08:51:19 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] jacob sheep article Message-ID: <200210030841546.SM01104@u7c4j2> A friend of mine just gave me three boxes of old machine knitting magazines. In Sept 1979 of Worldwide Machine Knitting is an article entitled "The Magnificent Jacob." It's a very short article, but does include a picture of a flock from Nr Abergavenny in Wales, owned by Mrs. H.M. Williams of White House Farm. Most of the ewes are two horned, but there are few four horned. Linda Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From oberlef at supernet.com Fri Oct 4 10:07:56 2002 From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding season. Message-ID: <412002105414756780@supernet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021004/1aab0493/attachment.htm From pegaleg2 at juno.com Fri Oct 4 10:27:06 2002 From: pegaleg2 at juno.com (marguerite e vanbeek) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] breeding rams Message-ID: <20021004.102707.-802039.2.pegaleg2@juno.com> I just have a question. If you have a flock of ewes and in that flock you have 5 rams and in your e-mail you state that one ewe was bred by 5 different rams how do you determine the parentage of the resulting lamb. How do you register this lamb? Peggy From pegaleg2 at juno.com Fri Oct 4 10:49:51 2002 From: pegaleg2 at juno.com (marguerite e vanbeek) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Rams Message-ID: <20021004.104952.-802039.3.pegaleg2@juno.com> So you would have all the resulting lambs in that main flock produce unregistered lambs. Why would you do that? How many breeders practice this type of breeding? I buy lambs based on their pedigree that way I know what crosses work and what won't Peggy From oberlef at supernet.com Fri Oct 4 11:12:41 2002 From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] breeding rams Message-ID: <4120021054151241390@supernet.com> I don't. To begin with, the rams snuck in to the ewe flock on their own...not my chosing! Maybe you weren't clear about that? So I now know for sure that ewe's lambs will have unknown fathers. Her lambs will probably even have different fathers. Guess you could do DNA testing if you really wanted, but don't think I will be doing that anytime soon. Since I was out with them the whole time (swearing my head off, the poor neighbors!) I have a pretty good idea of what went on, but just in case, I am going to delay sorting the ewes into their breeding groups for a few weeks. Was hoping to do it this saturday. It would be tempting to guess the parentage since the rams we have produce very different offspring. But that is out of the question with this situation. MOstly likely her lambs will either be butchered if they are rams or pets if they are ewes...unless they are really, really nice and then I guess I have the option of registering them as having 'unknown chicory lane sire'. Any advice that I am not thinking of? (besides get more secure gates!) Katrina > [Original Message] > From: marguerite e vanbeek > To: > Date: 10/4/02 10:28:30 AM > Subject: [Jacob-list] breeding rams > > I just have a question. If you have a flock of ewes and in that flock > you have 5 rams and in your e-mail you state that one ewe > was bred by 5 different rams how do you determine the parentage of the > resulting lamb. How do you register this lamb? > > Peggy > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list > Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list --- Dave & Katrina --- oberlef@supernet.com --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. From oberlef at supernet.com Fri Oct 4 11:18:05 2002 From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Rams Message-ID: <412002105415185830@supernet.com> By the way, the rams were only in for a 1/2 hour at the most.... Think about that, me sorting out excited males by myself and making it work that fast. Made me feel like some kind of hero! Ok, enough for positive thinking. Actually to get the very last ram lamb out (only 2 were adults), took much longer than that, but by that point no action was happening, just a whole lot of blood, sweat and tears from me. I was covered with sweat...my clothes were drenched and I have to say I did not like Jacobs very much at the time. *smile* Katrina > [Original Message] > From: marguerite e vanbeek > To: > Date: 10/4/02 10:49:20 AM > Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Rams > > So you would have all the resulting lambs in that main flock produce > unregistered lambs. Why would you do that? How many > breeders practice this type of breeding? I buy lambs based on their > pedigree that way I know what crosses work and what won't > > Peggy > > _______________________________________________ > Jacob-list mailing list > Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list --- Dave & Katrina --- oberlef@supernet.com --- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet. From pegaleg2 at juno.com Fri Oct 4 11:02:09 2002 From: pegaleg2 at juno.com (marguerite e vanbeek) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Breeding Rams Message-ID: <20021004.110210.-802039.5.pegaleg2@juno.com> Oh, I didn't understand that part. I would register them as FF than to let them go as pets/meat. As far as the gates go, since aquiring my flock this year I thought they would be easier than the horses which they are not. It is either under, over, or just remove. Peggy From nlgrose at yadtel.net Fri Oct 4 16:10:46 2002 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Multiple rams Message-ID: <000c01c26be2$2074c660$0207a8c0@home> The subject of multiple rams has come up several times lately, as can be expected of a fecund group of animals during breeding season. When several rams are used in a group of ewes, the offspring from each of the rams will be in proportion to their fertility. Keep in mind that rams of some breeds of sheep are perfectly capable of covering 60 ewes per breeding cycle. So, in a flock of 200 ewes and 4 rams, you might see 100+ lambs from Ram A, 75 from Ram B, etc. [ As an aside, in chickens, it has been shown that the rooster at the top of the pecking order and the one at the bottom breed none of the hens, because they spend too much time fighting.] [Knew you wanted to know that!] The implications of this on breeding schemes is worth thinking about. If we want to select for fertility, then the only good way to do that is to turn 'em loose. I have seen reports that some Suffolk rams do well to cover 20 ewes. This is not good. Were it not for the pesky business of registering sheep and keeping records straight, more breeders might use this option. As long as a group of registered rams were used, it is hard to argue against this logic...but I don't encourage doing this. I think that there are other ways of accomplishing the same goal. One solution might be to use one ram per breeding group for one breeding cycle, take them out for a breeding cycle and then switch them around. This is probably more trouble than it is worth. Neal Grose Harmony, NC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021004/60ac557a/attachment.html From BIDEWEE at aol.com Sun Oct 6 17:19:24 2002 From: BIDEWEE at aol.com (BIDEWEE@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Looking for contact info for Laurie Foster Message-ID: <16d.1386ee19.2ad202dc@aol.com> Hi All, I'm trying to contact Laurie Foster, a Jacob breeder from Wyandotte, OK. The phone number I have for her isn't working so I'm wondering if she may have moved. Does anyone have current phone number or e-mail address for her? Is so please contact me off list. Thanks! Karen Lobb bideawee@iname.com Check out our 2002 lambs at: www.bideaweefarm.com bide a wee farm ~ registered Jacob & Navajo-Churro Sheep 19562 NE Calkins Lane, Newberg, OR 97132 ~ 503-538-7987 bideawee@iname.com ~ www.bideaweefarm.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021006/19f6950e/attachment.htm From hmunday at bright.net Mon Oct 7 20:11:05 2002 From: hmunday at bright.net (Harold Munday) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] (no subject) Message-ID: <00e801c26e60$9601a080$6d328fd1@default> please take my name off your email list hmunday@bright.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021007/c6a1d6b2/attachment.html From bandb at in-tch.com Tue Oct 8 10:51:22 2002 From: bandb at in-tch.com (B&B Peters) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] more sheep ? Message-ID: <000001c26eda$2b0a0cc0$dcb9a6d8@b-b> Hi everyone, I have more questions in relationship to Jacob sheep. The first is about horns. We have stranded electric fencing, the NZ high tension kind. Does anyone know if electricity goes through horns or not, or do the horns insulate them from getting shocked? Was wondering if a horned sheep would use his horns to push through the electric fence and then if shocked would they get tangled in the wires trying to get out? That could be a real mess,...I think. Another is how fragile are four horned horns? We used to have Scottish blackface sheep and we could use their horns for handles when moving them about. Can you do the same with four horned sheep? I have also heard that four horned sheep are more careful with their horns and don't go bashing them about like a two horned sheep/ram. Is this true? Do you folks find any difference between the personalities of 2 horned and 4 horned rams? Next questions are related to color. Some people have written that Jacob come in black and white, brown and white, and lilac and white. Other people only mention lilac/white and black/white. Are there really the three colors, or are the brown one just faded blacks? Then I was wondering about the genetics of the lilac colors. In rabbits which also have a gray color called "Lilac" the genes are Bb Bb, and Dd Dd, or a dilute chocolate gene. Is this true of the genetic makeup of Lilac Jacobs? If not then what is the makeup? Hope some of you can help me? Barbara From Jacobflock at aol.com Tue Oct 8 11:07:28 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Tail docking educational program Message-ID: <17c.fca35a2.2ad44eb0@aol.com> The Shepherd magazine, September 2002, page 28 describes a "Tail Docking Seminar" being offered thru Ohio State University ... the article decribes some of the problems with short docking, the recommendations of a half dozen "sheep" organizations .. and reiterates the "distal end of the caudal fold". Some shepherds didn't know what the caudal fold was or looked like ... Fred Horak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021008/38071b86/attachment.htm From rbskarin at webtv.net Tue Oct 8 17:03:42 2002 From: rbskarin at webtv.net (Barb & Ron Skarin) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] (no subject) Message-ID: <7791-3DA3482E-8154@storefull-2354.public.lawson.webtv.net> rbskarin@webtv.net From rbskarin at webtv.net Tue Oct 8 17:15:43 2002 From: rbskarin at webtv.net (Barb & Ron Skarin) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] split eye-lids Message-ID: <7799-3DA34AFF-2716@storefull-2354.public.lawson.webtv.net> I want information on split eyelids. What happens if they are in stage 3? Barb From Jacobflock at aol.com Tue Oct 8 21:37:01 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob horns and color Message-ID: <16e.15311fcd.2ad4e23d@aol.com> In a message dated 10/8/02 9:51:18 AM Central Daylight Time, bandb@in-tch.com writes: > The first is about horns. We have stranded electric fencing, the NZ high > tension kind. Does anyone know if electricity goes through horns or not, > or > do the horns insulate them from getting shocked? Was wondering if a horned > sheep would use his horns to push through the electric fence and then if > shocked would they get tangled in the wires trying to get out? That could > be a real mess,...I think. Another is how fragile are four horned horns? > We used to have Scottish blackface sheep and we could use their horns for > handles when moving them about. Can you do the same with four horned > sheep? > I have also heard that four horned sheep are more careful with their horns > and don't go bashing them about like a two horned sheep/ram. Is this > true? > Do you folks find any difference between the personalities of 2 horned and > 4 > horned rams? > > Next questions are related to color. Some people have written that Jacob > come in black and white, brown and white, and lilac and white. Other > people > only mention lilac/white and black/white. Are there really the three > colors, or are the brown one just faded blacks? > Then I was wondering about the genetics of the lilac colors. In rabbits > which also have a gray color called "Lilac" the genes are Bb Bb, and Dd Dd, > or a dilute chocolate gene. Is this true of the genetic makeup of Lilac > Jacobs? If not then what is the makeup? > The horns of the Jacob, wether two or more, are solidly attached to the skull by an internal core. The core carries substantial quantities of blood which also acts as a "cooling" system ... like the radiator of a car. The conductance of the horn depends on two factors .. you can also do this experiment. Using a "cattle prod" (most use 4 D batteries) you can touch the end of the horn and get no reaction. As you get lower on the horn, a reaction can be induced. I think (hypothesis) that this is a function of the moisture content of the horn and the mass of the horn core vs. the thickness of the keratin sheath. The problem with some electric fencing is not the conductivity of the horn but the catching of the horn in the fence, subsequent struggle to get loose, getting fouled up in the fencing, and constant pulsing of the charge. As an aside, I understand that some Jacob breeders have used the "Premier" portable fencing with some degree of success. The horns are firmly attached to the skull and can be used to handle Jacobs. The two horn and four horn have differing basal size and leverage issues. There are no "wild" four horn sheep because the four horn is at a disadvantage in competition (combat) with a two horn. We have notice little difference in the bashing of two and four horn .. the process is slightly different. The two horn seem to prefer to go head to head - the four horn go head to head but also do more head to body. Is there a "personality" difference? I think there is some difference but I do not think it is merely a difference between two and four horn .. perhaps more a difference in management practices. Color is rather straight forward ... a dominant black with th recessive piebald ... a black sheep with white spots (the basic genotype of the Jacob) ... and not so straight forward ... "it can also be 'lilac'' (a recessive). The black color is observed at the base of the fiber ... it should be black. The brown at the neds of the fiber can be caused by several agents ... ultra violet light at the high range (sometimes referred to as bleaching) .... a lack of copper in the diet or a genetic mechanism that does not convert the copper to eumelanin (black). The amount of white is controlled by the piebald gene and an "overactive" piebald gene can result in large white areas ... the Dorset Horn is also a piebald ... and an 'underactive' or weak piebald gene can produce large black areas ... the recessive black Hebridean which (if cross bred) produces little white areas. A black may also turn 'grey' ... a premature grey that might be observed about age three ... this is a dominant gene. A 'black and white' might turn to a 'black' as a result of the ticking gene (the appearance of more and more 'freckles' over time) and this is a dominant gene. The lilac is a recessive. It is not allowed in the Jacob in England for pure bred registration purposes ... but is recognized in North America ... perhaps this is a 'British' Jacob landrace issue (Soay, Shetland, etc.) and what we have (?) in the North American 'gene puddle'. The lilac MAY BE (hypothesis) a 'modifier' set of genes that affects the dominant black at the 'eye ring' and 'body' ... but does not affect the breed specific black markings. Perhaps the lilac carries a variant at the Extension locus ... or ... carries a Dilution gene that is recessive to to deep black. Ah, sweet mysteries of life. Fred Horak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021008/73aa7268/attachment.html From nlgrose at yadtel.net Tue Oct 8 23:48:02 2002 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Reply on Jacob sheep questions Message-ID: <000701c26f46$ab33fca0$0207a8c0@home> Barbara Peters has asked some very good questions in her jacoblist posting on 10/8. The answers are more complicated than you might think, and I am going to provide only a basic outline as I see things. "Another is how fragile are four horned horns? > We used to have Scottish blackface sheep and we could use their horns for > handles when moving them about. Can you do the same with four horned sheep?" Answer: I have several types of fencing. I have less problems with NZ style multiple stranded electric fence than any other. Sheep lead with their nose for the most part, so a good jolt is usually enough to get the adults in line. However, the leading cause of death in sheep is still Terminal Ovine Stupidity Syndrome. Jacob sheep horns SHOULD BE at least as strong as Scottish Blackface horns. This varies, and there is some debate going on as to what the minimum horn strength should be, especially in the ewes. An underlying problem is that the total horn mass is not significantly different between 2 and 4 horned animals. [My observation is that a 4 horned ram may have about 150% of the horn mass that his 2 horned brother would have.] Having horns strong enough to use as handles is a pretty good rule of thumb for the ewes. Some lines of sheep are having problems with diminutive horns in the ewes, and this is undesirable. The rub is that horn genetics in sheep are more complicated than in cattle. We have to deal with both dominant and recessive polled, hornless (not polled), sex-linked... many of these traits are recessive and can be submerged in the purebred population without coming to the forefront. [Some see this as evidence of crossbreeding, but I think that is a hard case to make.] More importantly, horn strength is directly proportional to bone mass. Jacob sheep are supposed to be a flat boned [sometimes referred to as fine boned] breed. Efforts to breed for big horns will result in animals that are large and coarse boned. Conversely, there is a chance that breeding for small animals and fine fleece can inadvertently result in eliminating horns, especially in the ewes. Sheep fight smart, or more specifically, they have mechanisms to avoid fights. Sheep are genetically dispositioned to show deference to the guy with the biggest set of whoppers..er horns. Therefore, a large 2 horned ram will often defer to a smaller 4 horned ram unless aggravated. 2- horned rams actually hit with the thick pad on the back of their skull, not the top of the skull. 4-horned rams do not have this option, and will adopt a circle/side swipe at the rib approach if they are smart.[otherwise, see T.O.S.S. above.] "Next questions are related to color. Some people have written that Jacob > come in black and white, brown and white, and lilac and white. Other people > only mention lilac/white and black/white. Are there really the three > colors, or are the brown one just faded blacks?" Answer [such as it is]: Color in Jacob sheep is extremely complicated. They are white dominate/black dominate/piebald. The piebald gene is recessive in some bloodlines and dominate in others. There are variations in the piebald characteristics, such as numerous small black markings versus large black patches. [Technically, the white is the "spot". As in Holstein cattle, true Jacob spotting is black with white extremities.] Color in inbred populations tends to be somewhat cleaner [less freckling/ticking] than in outcrossed animals. Lilac is "whatever is not black" in common usage. Lilac is NOT faded black. Now, when you figure out the genetics of lilac, let the rest of us know. Lilac color varies, with descriptions ranging from 'chocolate' to 'pewter/tan'. Within the 'purebred' population of Jacobs, lilac acts like a simple recessive to the black. Bx is black and white, and bb is lilac and white..lilac expressed only as homozygous recessive. The problem is when lilac Jacob sheep are test crossed. Test crosses allow one gene to examined at a time. In some cases, when lilac Jacob is test crossed onto homozygous white dominate sheep, such as Corriedale, the cross produces black or black piebald lambs. This shouldn't happen. If lilac is a simple recessive, then by definition, black is not "present" and the cross should produce either white or lilac lambs, depending on the dominance of the lilac. Instead, in this case the black comes through from the lilac parent. Additional test crossing is being done by several people to test cross lilac Jacob onto moorit colored sheep. Since moorit is the most recessive color, this should tell us more. There are some reports that there is considerable variation in the color of lilacXmoorit lambs, [some black and some brown] indicating that there are probably several 'lilac' genes, with different modes of action. OK, this was more than you wanted to know. Neal Grose North Carolina -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021008/2c05e70a/attachment.htm From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com Wed Oct 9 06:13:19 2002 From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Hansson) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] split eye-lids In-Reply-To: <7799-3DA34AFF-2716@storefull-2354.public.lawson.webtv.net> Message-ID: <001901c26f7c$7d946420$09dc5818@triad.rr.com> Barb, Split eyelids sometimes reproduce in kind in offspring right away. I don't personally like them and use that as one of the criteria in culling from the breeding gene pool. A ram with a split would be eliminated immediately. One aside.....I have seen a ram used extensively that had grade 2 splits in both eyes and rarely passed that on to his offspring of their offspring/offsprings offspring etc. I have also seen 80% of all offspring of unnotched partners show up with splits and 100% of notched partners produce offspring with splits from another ram that quite obviously threw the problem. This all goes back in some way to the split in the bones of the head. If you feel above the eye sockets of your animals, you will either feel a smooth oval like you would expect or you will feel a triangle. It is rare for me to feel an oval in the 4 horned population irregardless of the visible grade of eyelid. Mary Ellen Hansson, ISeeSpots Farm Jacob Sheep: Those horny, fuzzy critters Shop: Knitting, crochet, spinning supplies www.iseespots.com (336) 854-6209 -----Original Message----- From: jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com [mailto:jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of Barb & Ron Skarin Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 5:16 PM To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com Subject: [Jacob-list] split eye-lids I want information on split eyelids. What happens if they are in stage 3? Barb _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list From Jacobflock at aol.com Wed Oct 9 07:36:55 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] split eye-lids Message-ID: <44.2772da38.2ad56ed7@aol.com> In a message dated 10/8/02 4:16:51 PM Central Daylight Time, rbskarin@webtv.net writes: > I want information on split eyelids. What happens if they are in stage > 3? > Barb > You ask a very interesting question ... "if they are in stage 3" ... implying that there is a progression of SUED from "stage 2" to "stage 4". The grades of the SUED defect for the Jacob were established by the Jacob Sheep Society in England based on the condition observed in several British multi-horned breeds. The eye grade was as follows: TYPE 1 - A normal round eyelid, TYPE 2 - and almond shaped eyelid, FAULT 1 - a well defined and obvious break in the yelid, FAULT 2 - Tuft of hair or waon th edge of the eyelid or eyelashes growing under the eyelid, FAULT 3 - a full scale split extending to the top of the eyelid. The Jacob breeders in North America do not use the word "Fault" as a descriptor but the word "Type", and classify the SUED defect as Type 2 -slight, Type 3 - split that is often tufted and Type 3 - Severe with a cloudy or opaque eye. A photo table of SUED defects by Type was prepared by Colorado State University for their teaching program and Peter Spellmeyer has collateral information on SUED from his multi horn skull observations of notches in the occipital orbit. Inquiries have and are being made to find a veterinary opthamologist to offer further insight into this defect. Pictures are also available in I Painter's book "Jacobs in North America". The "type" is most often determined at birth except in those few cases when a field examination is done and the condition recorded at the time of the field examination. The SUED defect might be graded as Type 2 ("mild" or slight notch) at birth but I am unaware of any longitudinal observations as to SUED progressing to Type 3 or 4; or Type 3 progressing to Type 4 as you describe as a "stage". A "stage 3" will depend on where you live (Britain or North America), your powers of observation and type classification and the age of the sheep (can it be progressive?). SUED is associated with multiple horns and is described as a "recessive" trait but it is unclear if it is a simple recessive. It is a defect and should be avoided in a breeding program. The defect is recessive, the grade is not recessive. Some have suggested that a Type 2 bred to a Type 2 produces Type 2. This suggestion is not a correct characterization of the defect. Reports of a Type 2 SUED ram over Type 1 and Type 2 ewes have produced 25% to 50% SUED lambs with Types 2 through 4. The use of a "Stage 3" for breeding is a risk for affected lambs and carrier lambs. I hope this is helpful. Fred Horak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021009/8c16778a/attachment.html From gordon at westergladstone.fsnet.co.uk Wed Oct 9 09:44:28 2002 From: gordon at westergladstone.fsnet.co.uk (gordon johnston) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:26 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Horn strength References: <20021009035611.C57715366C@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <000001c26f9a$317b3500$05ed193e@oemcomputer> May I add 2 points to the discussion on Jacob horn strength? The first is that, yes, horns can be used for handling sheep, but they do not like it and it's rarely necessary. A sheep can be well controlled by a hand under the chin and the body braced against the handlers leg, unless it's wild or distressed (the sheep that is!). Sheep's horns are surprisingly sensitive - see how precisely they use them for scratching, or flicking someone else's lamb out of the way, and how they toss the head when the horns are touched. They clearly know exactly where the horn tip is, even if there are no nerves in the tip itself ; there must be plenty at the attachment point. So please think carefully before routinely using horns for catching and securing sheep, no matter how convenient they are. Keep it for emergencies. The second is that Jacobs, especially 4 horned, take some time to develop firmly fixed horns. If you attempt to catch a lamb by the horns you may well end up with the horn in your hand and a bloody hole into the animals skull. Side horns in particular are knocked off very easily by fighting, caught against netting, etc. Even a shearlings horns are too delicate to be used to hold its full weight. I enjoyed all the colour inheritance info from Fred and Neal, although I wasn't quite certain about the reference to 'Soay, Shetland, etc'. Neither of them contains a lilac variant, do they?? Mouflon pattern, moorit, yes. There are lilac Jacobs here, with spots of a very pale grey - is that what you mean? Oh by the way, just to be really picky, The Jacob Sheep Society represents British flocks, not just English ones. Juliet, in Scotland. From Jacobflock at aol.com Wed Oct 9 11:29:01 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] A Jacob "lilac" source/question Message-ID: In a message dated 10/8/02 10:55:22 PM Central Daylight Time, nlgrose@yadtel.net writes: > Now, when you figure out the genetics of lilac, let the rest of us know. > Lilac color varies, with descriptions ranging from 'chocolate' to > 'pewter/tan'. Within the 'purebred' population of Jacobs, lilac acts like a > simple recessive to the black. A breed is a group that breeds true ... follows some rules that produces an expected outcome; albeit the rules can be complex. The basic color genotype of the Jacob (dominant lack/recessive piebald) has been described by the Scots since 1900. The Jacob Sheeo Society (England) does not "register" lilacs ... apparently for want of matching the genotype. But with the obscurity of the origins of the Jacob and its descriptions in the mid 1800s, what might be sources for "horned lilacs" (Jacobs) in North America? Trivial pursuit: In "Essays relating to Agriculture and Rural Affairs", 1777, Dr. J. Anderson (Vol.2, p 165) describes sheep on the Isle of Man: "In the Isle of Man there is said to be another breed that carries wool of light buff" ... is this the same as the loagthan" color? About ten years later, (1794) describes 'yellow' colored sheep? "In all the remote parts of Scotland and the Isles, where sheep have in great measure been neglected and allowed to breed promiscuouisly, without any selection, there is to be found a prodigious diversity of colour; and among others, dun sheep, or those of a brownish colour tending to be an obscure yellow, are not infrequent ... It is for this reason, and to save the trouble of dyeing, that the poor people of the Highlands propogate black, russet, and brown and other coloured sheep, more than in any country where the wool is regularly brought to market. In the Isle of Man a breed of dun sheep is very common till this hour." More trivial pursuit: In 1810 Dr. A. Edmonston published a description of the "Zetland" sheep; varied colors ... two and four horned ... but a short tail. This is the Shetland. Now a serious question for any Scot shepherds (or old geographers) on the List: In translating a 1600 Latin phrase: "Regionum et Insularum Scotiae descriptio ... Tuedalia tamen optimum lanam ... " - "In my description of the areas of Scotaland and its islands .... and Tuedalia and its excellent fiber ... " Where is Tuedalia today and what was it called in the 1600s and 1700s? The interest is the presence of "oues paruae quidem sunt, et plereque ut arietes cornua ferunt: sed oues, bina, terna,quaternae et arietes nonunquam sena" in "Tuedalia". This exciting information is from Bishop Lealey's essay (1578) ... but these horned ewes are not Jacobs ... since it goes on to say "caudas brevissimas" ... "short tails". But this may also be the Shetland and is there a connection between Tuedalia sheep and Shetland sheep? ... i.e., breeds identified by geography. Where was Tuedalia? Is the 'lilac' Jacob related to the Shetland? I suspect few relate to this ... but then I "relate" to Dr. Minor (Murray and Minor and the OED) ... my asylum happens to be a Jacob farm in Texas rather than London. Fred Horak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021009/369c2829/attachment.htm From critterland at bendcable.com Wed Oct 9 12:34:13 2002 From: critterland at bendcable.com (Melody) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] A Jacob "lilac" source/question References: Message-ID: <002001c26fb1$b394e790$c469dc42@hale01> Keep the "trivia" coming, Fred! And if you ever find the answer to this one, please post it! Where can Bishop Lealey's essay be found in its entirety? My Latin isn't what it used to be, but I could follow your quote, and think the whole document would be interesting. Melody at CritterLand Redmond OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021009/87d847fc/attachment.html From Jacobflock at aol.com Wed Oct 9 12:47:14 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Lilac color reference: Soay,Shetland Message-ID: <177.101159fb.2ad5b792@aol.com> In a message dated 10/9/02 8:46:33 AM Central Daylight Time, gordon@westergladstone.fsnet.co.uk writes: > I > wasn't quite certain about the reference to 'Soay, Shetland, etc'. Neither > of them contains a lilac variant, do they?? Mouflon pattern, moorit, yes. > There are lilac Jacobs here, with spots of a very pale grey - is that what > you mean? > In trying to understand the presence of the "lilac" Jacob in North America, I was referring to the Soay and Shetland as possible "sources" of genetic material that may produce the lilac color. If limiting the scope of the inquiry to "sources" of (a) nearby sheep (b) considering both pattern and color of 'root' stock (I think the Shetland is the top of the pattern/color pyramid) and (c) the population/flock status of these sheep in the early 1900s and some admixture of breeds probably occured in various locations ... some were simply called "four-horn sheep" ... but later became identified as breeds or were identified with existing breeds. I am not rel good at colors but the lilac does seem to have a "purple" cast to it and includes a fawn(?) or steel(?) grey. My point in describing grey is to differentiate the "lilac" from a premature greying gene or a gene that does not adequately produce copper for the 'black' melanocytes. Not all grey Jacobs are 'lilacs'. An indicator of the affected lilac is the eye-ring color. Juliet ... I stand corrected on the JSS representing British flocks. It appeared to me from the pictures in the most recent JSS Journal that most "winners" in England were two horn ... "winners" in Scotland were four horned. I just happen to associate the JSS with London ... and I know there are regions in Scotland, Ireland, Wales ... and England. Just before I saw your post I sent a note looking for some Scottish geography ... Thanks for your post. Fred Horak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021009/9912364b/attachment.htm From oberlef at supernet.com Wed Oct 9 13:04:29 2002 From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] ASI sheep shots. Message-ID: <412002103917429600@supernet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021009/e94187ba/attachment.html From ACAMDA at aol.com Wed Oct 9 13:14:39 2002 From: ACAMDA at aol.com (ACAMDA@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Copper Message-ID: <51.25812216.2ad5bdff@aol.com> Since we are new shepherds, I spend a lot of my time reading "everything you ever wanted to know about sheep" type books. {my vet says I read too much:)} One of the continued cautions regards cooper in feed mixes, etc. I live in Georgia, which isn't exactly sheep country, and my local feed store is having trouble locating mineral / salt mixes, treats, etc., that are totally devoid of copper. Most include some trace of copper sulfate. Even the lamb feed mix has it. (Regular sheep chow does not.) Is it true that it would be best to steer clear of all cooper traces, or is some level acceptable? I don't want to do something I'll live to regret! Thanks everyone! Kathey Williamson Sweet Georgia Valley Farm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021009/dcb1779b/attachment.htm From Jacobflock at aol.com Wed Oct 9 18:04:56 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Copper Message-ID: <147.4cef0.2ad60208@aol.com> In a message dated 10/9/02 12:15:46 PM Central Daylight Time, ACAMDA@aol.com writes: > Since we are new shepherds, I spend a lot of my time reading "everything you > ever wanted to know about sheep" type books. {my vet says I read too > much:)} One of the continued cautions regards cooper in feed mixes, etc. > I live in Georgia, which isn't exactly sheep country, and my local feed > store is having trouble locating mineral / salt mixes, treats, etc., that > are totally devoid of copper. Most include some trace of copper sulfate. > Even the lamb feed mix has it. (Regular sheep chow does not.) Is it true > that it would be best to steer clear of all cooper traces, or is some level > acceptable? I don't want to do something I'll live to regret! > Florida and some Gulf coast and Southeast states are thought to be copper DEFICIENT. Sheep do need copper; for body functions and copper makes "black wool" black. The problem, if there is one, is striking the balance between deficiency and toxicity. Toxicity becomes an environmental problem by feeding a manufactured sheep mix that has minerals (including copper and other minerals) and then adding the mineral block (with copper and other minerals). There will be some copper in your pasture and some in your local non-processed grains. If your local agriculture area is low in copper and you rely on local forage and local non-manufactured feed (use a whole grain mix, e.g., corn, oats wheat, alfalfa, orchard grass, etc, set out some sheep mineral. Sheep mineral to augment forage is usually available in a granular form (Purina) and in blocks (hard block and soft block) formulated for sheep. We have a preference for the granular form over the block but if you choose a block, you may want to use a "soft" block over a "hard" block. The hard block may tend to wear and chip teeth. The hard block works for sheep expected to be around for five or six years where teeth condition is not too important but if you want to support a fifteen to twenty year life span ... tooth retention must be a consideration. A "soft" block is available from "Tractor Supply" if you have one of these near you. If you use a manufactured sheep feed, a "normal" copper level is 5 - 8 parts per million". A manufactured feed with minerals and copper listed as "less than 10 ppm" is a reasonable target. I would be cautious feeding both manufactured feed and mineral. Copper interacts with molybdenum and sulphur; these too will be present in manufactured feed and minerals. Fred Horak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021009/12e85124/attachment.html From wolfpen at rabun.net Wed Oct 9 18:58:13 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Copper In-Reply-To: <147.4cef0.2ad60208@aol.com> Message-ID: <200210091848213.SM01124@u7c4j2> Just a few notes - Two of my fleeces showed signs of copper deficiency this year. I feed a whole grain mixture and had NOT fed mineral salt for a few months. I have fed sheep mineral salt for the 10 years that I have had sheep except for those months. This is the first sign of deficiency I've seen. I will not make that mistake again. Some chemical fertilizers (I read labels at my local feed stores while waiting for my feed to be loaded) have copper added and some don't. That makes a difference in your forage, your hay and your grain. Some sheep mineral/salt mixtures say "no added copper." That does not mean they are copper free. Many of the mixes that say no copper added don't give you a ppm. As Fred says, you will find copper in grain, forage, etc. Many of the mineral mixes have ingredients like "grain byproducts". Some of these mixes will give you a ppm on copper, but will not show copper sulfate as an added ingredient. That ppm will sometimes be very high. Remember that the 5 to 8 ppm is on the TOTAL feed intake. Unless you are feeding nothing but the mineral mix (in which case you won't have to worry long about copper intake as you will have plenty of other problems!) that is not the ppm of your ration. I don't mean to be simplistic here, but I recently heard of someone that was so afraid of copper toxicity that they didn't feed any salt at all - not even the plain old white kind. If I fed a prepackaged sheep ration, I would not feed a mineral mix. Kathey - both my feed stores carry a mineral mix that is just for sheep (not sheep and goats). If you want me to get you a bag, let me know. Linda PS - we have a new baby!! Ok, it's a donkey foal and not a Jacob lamb, but she is so cute, we are bragging everywhere. Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From fayg at mebtel.net Thu Oct 10 04:05:09 2002 From: fayg at mebtel.net (gf) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Re: feed References: <200210100326.g9A3QEO11441@lopez.interisland.net> Message-ID: <001601c27033$c0facc60$a1422840@mebtel.net> What did you send ... it looks like you have a virus ... ----- Original Message ----- From: Black, Tiar and Jason To: undisclosed-recipients:; Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 11:26 PM Subject: Re: feed >Mary, >I just got back from off island and I did get the cenex in burlington to carry it for me. They are going to be buying it by the ton. She said they would order that much or more if we need it every 2 weeks. I do -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021010/24f97e7a/attachment.htm From dschultz at waypt.com Thu Oct 10 09:12:15 2002 From: dschultz at waypt.com (Dennis Schultz) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Copper deficiency Message-ID: <004601c2705f$240c8700$dec5a141@default> What are the signs of copper deficiency in a fleece? Thanks, Dennis and Barbara Schultz Green Water Farm Port Townsend, WA http://www.greenwaterfarm.com From GBAnderson at UCDavis.Edu Thu Oct 10 11:17:43 2002 From: GBAnderson at UCDavis.Edu (Anderson, Gary B.) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Another duplicate? Message-ID: I sent two messages to the Jacob List during the past several weeks, and neither came back to me via the List. The more recent message was in regard to an alternative for dealing with the mismating or multiple-sire mating discussed last week. Yesterday morning I contacted Mark Williams, Jacob List administrator, and he suggested that I resend a message to help him troubleshoot the problem I am having (i.e., I can receive from but not send to Jacob List). I did not receive the resent message, and I'm sending it again. I apologize if this message went out last week, again yesterday, and again this morning to everyone on the List, except back to me, and you're receiving duplicate messages during the troubleshooting. This is the message I sent; the topic is old, but the solution is still a viable option. An undesired multi-sire mating, or any other mismating, can be treated with a single injection of prostaglandin F2alpha (PGF2a), available at low cost from any large animal veterinarian. The product is used extensively in cattle (an horses, but the cattle product is cheaper) and can be prescribed off-label for use in sheep. Several products are available, which affect only the amount that has to be given. If given after about day 5 of the cycle (estrus = day 0), PGF2a simulates the normal signal provided to the ovary by the nonpregnant uterus on about day 13 of the cycle saying, "Regress the corpus luteum, grow a new follicle, and come back into estrus." Ewes will return to estrus about 2 days after injection with PGF2a. At day 5, the embryo has about 100 cells, has not yet attached to the uterus, and the ewe returns to fertile estrus uneventfully. Only about a week is lost in the breeding season, which might be preferred to a lamb with unknown parentage or the expense of DNA typing. Not that I've ever had a mismating, mind you. From nlgrose at yadtel.net Thu Oct 10 11:09:07 2002 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] lilac Message-ID: <000d01c2706e$fbfa6600$0207a8c0@home> As a dairy farmer, I am struck by the parallels between lilac and Red and White Holsteins. U.S. Holsteins have registrations and a breed association going back to around 1880. From then until about 1975, color standards were quite rigorous. Red and Whites were not allowed to be registered. Prestigious breeders adamantly denied EVER having such crossbred looking animals...and often killed the red calves at birth or gave them away after extracting a promise that no one would find out where they came from. During the ' 70s, an active export market to countries that offered a premium for red and whites suddenly made it a pretty good idea to accept R&W Holsteins along with the Black and Whites for registrations. During the 1970s, efforts to developed red coloration in herds were quite successful. For one hundred years prior to this, there were NO registered R&W Holsteins. So, for one hundred years, the gene for red stayed submerged in the gene pool. Red coloration in Holsteins is a simple recessive to black. [Does this sound familiar? For the record, crosses to Ayrshires do not come out productive enough to make it worthwhile, so this was not a consideration.] What we know of the history of Jacob sheep is a history of segregation into a number of isolated breeding groups. I remember a conversation with Edd Bissell in which he related that one of the early flocks of American Jacob sheep were lilac and maintained as an inbred group because the breeder did not like the confirmation of the outcrosses that he tried...not necessarily because he liked lilac. Isolation and inbreeding have been key to the development of abnormalities due to recessive genes. In many ways, the Jacob sheep that we have now are the most homogenous and the most "purebred" that they have ever been due to intermingling and standardization through the breed standards. This outcrossing tends to make animals more 'average'. Interestingly, there were probably more Jacob sheep imported into the North America than there were Holstein cattle. This does not mean that there is more genetic diversity in Jacobs than in Holsteins. Holstein breeders have practiced breeding programs that utilized alternately inbreeding and then outcrossing of bloodlines, thereby providing a chance to recombine the DNA that was available. This together with the large numbers of animals in the Holstein breed gives them the most genetic diversity of the dairy breeds. There is MORE genetic diversity in Holsteins now than in 1900. For all practical purposes, all breeds start out as crossbreeds. They are reselected over time for genetic conformity. The key is to see WHEN a breed is first designated as purebred. Jacob sheep are no different, even though the breed origin predates most modern breeds. [I do not know that anyone paid a lot of attention to distinct breeds before 1800, and most breeds date to the mid-1800s.] Then too, at the time of the origin of these breeds, fences served primarily to keep the beasts OUT of the garden. Woven wire and multiple stranded high tensile fences were far in the future. The Jacob sheep may well have started as simply the piebald variant of the basic Viking sheep. There has been some debate about northern European or Mediterranean origin of Jacobs, my own guess is that it is most likely that they are 'Viking' flocks that had similar looking "collected" rams added to them from all that traveling and colonizing that the British did. Jacob sheep were a collector's item in which oddity and diversity were prized and preserved. All of this is to say that the lilac gene is as intrinsic to the Jacob breed as is the red color gene is to Holstein. Color is a superficial trait, and is governed by a handful of genes. [Similar comments can be made about recessive traits that affect horn development. They may not be desirable, but these traits are impossible to use to differentiate authentic animals with a high degree of certainty,] If we were to suddenly get rich and sequence the genome, "lilac" would be a bare blip in the gene pool difference between Jacob and the other breeds. If you really want to see a difference, look at the pelvic structure of American Jacobs, the flat and dense bone, unique fleece characteristics, body confirmation... Neal Grose North Carolina PS: I just have to add, after mentioning that I am a dairy farmer, that the recent price increase in milk IN NO WAY reflects the farm price of milk. Milk has gone UP 30-40 cents here...and the farm price we get has gone DOWN 30% in the last year! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021010/a4ce661d/attachment.html From ACAMDA at aol.com Thu Oct 10 13:02:10 2002 From: ACAMDA at aol.com (ACAMDA@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Facts Message-ID: <1bc.10678742.2ad70c92@aol.com> This was in my e-mail this morning, and I thought it was cool! "Sheeps can recognize other sheep faces like humans do. They can remember up to 50 sheep faces." Not sure how they figured it out, but it's something to think about! Kathey W. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021010/90cf3a1d/attachment.htm From MarmontJacobs at aol.com Thu Oct 10 15:48:16 2002 From: MarmontJacobs at aol.com (MarmontJacobs@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fleece Cu Deficiency Message-ID: <174.102895c5.2ad73380@aol.com> Hi Dennis, Copper deficiency in the fleece shows up as a loss of colour (to grey) and strength of staple to some extent. This is easily seen by looking at the neck wool parting the fleece to the skin. Before our recent move to Montgomeryshire, Wales from Norfolk, England I spent three years trying to convince my horse vet (few sheep flocks) that some of my ram/wethered lambs were suffering from delayed swayback at around 6 months of age - running at around 10 per cent of my lambs. The colour loss was one of several symptoms. Interestingly affected ewe lambs didn't seem to lose their wool colour until closer to a year and, fortunately, had none had more severe symptoms. The Hebridean breeders in The Netherlands have done a bit of work on this which is interesting to read. The longshot being that bolusing my lambs with copper produced a spectacular reversion to normal fleece colour although the failure to thrive in the two affected lambs this year hasn't been changed, although worse symptoms have been averted. In three weeks time I will bolus all my ewes prior to lambing (in late January) and hopefully that will be that. Trisha M-S Marmont Jacobs, Montgomeryshire, Wales From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com Thu Oct 10 18:00:23 2002 From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Hansson) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Facts In-Reply-To: <1bc.10678742.2ad70c92@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c270a8$6f3a3ee0$09dc5818@triad.rr.com> Kathey and all, If they can remember only 50 sheep faces, how is it that flocks that are larger than that seem to have pecking orders that work consistently? Sheep definitely do have a pecking order, and if you watch them long enough, you can figure out the line-up. My bet is they know more than we think they know. They certainly know what I am thinking----and how to mess up my day when it is the most hairy :o)) Mary Ellen Hansson, ISeeSpots Farm Jacob Sheep: Those horny, fuzzy critters Shop: Knitting, crochet, spinning supplies www.iseespots.com (336) 854-6209 -----Original Message----- From: jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com [mailto:jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of ACAMDA@aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 1:02 PM To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com Subject: [Jacob-list] Facts This was in my e-mail this morning, and I thought it was cool! "Sheeps can recognize other sheep faces like humans do. They can remember up to 50 sheep faces." Not sure how they figured it out, but it's something to think about! Kathey W. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021010/3612f510/attachment.html From SharHill at aol.com Thu Oct 10 18:22:52 2002 From: SharHill at aol.com (SharHill@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] sheep faces/ copper deficiency/greying Message-ID: <13.13228a24.2ad757bc@aol.com> 1. I read that article when it came out a while ago. I think it stated that sheep can probably recognize more than 50 sheep faces, they just picked that number and stopped testing there. They didn't test for more than 50 faces. I hope I helped you. 2. There was recent talk about genetic causes of greying in Jacobs. Are the additional symptoms of copper deficiency sufficient to make you think there is something wrong with the sheep and do something about it, rather continue on your merry way, attributing it to natural greying? Trisha obviously noticed there was something wrong with her sheep and figured out the cause. I'm just wondering how easy that is for not very experienced shepherds to pick that up. Thanks. Sharon Hill Kingston, GA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021010/703030ac/attachment.htm From wolfpen at rabun.net Thu Oct 10 18:46:47 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Copper deficiency In-Reply-To: <004601c2705f$240c8700$dec5a141@default> Message-ID: <200210101837912.SM01124@u7c4j2> In the two fleeces I had, it showed up in one as a very obvious, but thin grey line in the black locks. In the other fleece, the band was wider, but less distinct. That fleece is brown to the roots - a very lovely color, by the way. The other fleece with the thin band is very black other than the stripe. None of the staples are weak. Pulling hard, drum carding, hand carding or hand combing did not break the staples. I don't know if the brown color (not grey) in the one fleece is a nutritional deficiency or if this ram just has a brown cast. He is not a lilac, but the yarn color is very much the same. I don't think that sunburn would extend that close to the skin. Linda On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 06:12:15 -0700, Dennis Schultz wrote: >What are the signs of copper deficiency in a fleece? >Thanks, >Dennis and Barbara Schultz >Green Water Farm >Port Townsend, WA >http://www.greenwaterfarm.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Jacob-list mailing list >Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From wolfpen at rabun.net Thu Oct 10 18:58:07 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Facts In-Reply-To: <1bc.10678742.2ad70c92@aol.com> Message-ID: <200210101848439.SM01124@u7c4j2> I heard something about that. I think it also said that sheep can recognize 10 humans. It's interesting that sheep will seem to instantly like or dislike someone. A few weeks ago someone came to pick up some rabbits and we went to see the ram. He's a somewhat timid ram, but not usually spooky. He saw these people and ran into the barn so fast that he skidded into the wall with a bang! A few years ago I was selling a super tame ewe. The first people came to see her and she lit out into the woods and wouldn't even come for feed. She went home with the next people and she comes up for petting every day. Wonder why sheep don't like some people? An interesting sheep feeding observation - I have 9 animals in the breeding group. I have 9 rubber feed dishes along the fence, about 2 feet apart. I walk along the fence putting a scoop of grain in each dish. RubyBelle will just stick her head in the first dish and eat. The rest will follow me from dish to dish, checking to see what is going in each dish. A few will drop out along the way and eat, but Martha will still be following me at the end to see what might be left in the feed bucket. By this time, RubyBelle has finished her dish and moved to another. The rest are milling around, still checking to see if anyone else has something better. Martha is still following me with my empty feed bucket. Guess who is the littlest sheep! Linda NE Georgia On Thu, 10 Oct 2002 13:02:10 EDT, ACAMDA@aol.com wrote: >This was in my e-mail this morning, and I thought it was cool! > >"Sheeps can recognize other sheep faces like humans do.  They >can remember up to 50 sheep faces." > >Not sure how they figured it out, but it's something to think about! > >Kathey W. Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From Jacobflock at aol.com Fri Oct 11 12:39:33 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Recognition: Message-ID: In a message dated 10/10/02 12:03:32 PM Central Daylight Time, ACAMDA@aol.com writes: > This was in my e-mail this morning, and I thought it was cool! > > "Sheeps can recognize other sheep faces like humans do. They > can remember up to 50 sheep faces." > > Not sure how they figured it out, but it's something to think about! > The recognition of Jacob ewes and lambs, and the visusal recognition of sheep by other sheep, memory and response has been the subject of several studies. Some Listers may have read the several Jacob articles on this behavior over the years. The ewe - new lamb vocalizations (some call it 'knickering') at birth begins a vocal imprinting process that might be characterized as "that's Mom" or "that's the kid again" ... The ewe nicker/bleat is unique as is the lamb's. Each has a unique 'tone' and 'accent' .... the formants, amplitutde and harmonics are unique. In field observations, the voice is so unique that 'bleats' made while grazing are recognized ... bleating with your mouth full is encouraged ... The vocal cues are 'attention getters'. The 'attention getters' initiate a "I'm over here" response and a "look at me when I 'baa'" response. The body and/or head turns to the recognized vocalization. The next step is a visual recognition and approach ... lamb to ewe or vice versa ... sheep to sheep ... The visual cues are the crux of the "recognition" and "approach". The visual 'recognition' is followed by the 'approach' ... family members recognize other family members .... avoid strangers ... accept 'repeat' strangers. Behavior is fascinating ... and mysterious when it is looked at closely. We generally like to lump lambing experiences into the wonderful "Jacob maternal ability" ... but we also should consider "the Jacob lamb survivability" ... and their "loose flocking" with sibling memory and recognition of each other, (ewe AND lamb / sheep AND sheep / sheep and people / etc.). I suspect there is something to "they stopped at fifty"... and they are a bit smarter. These behaviors are rooted in genetic/bio/chemical mechanisms. The polypeptides (like cholecsytokinin, CCK ) and the genes that set this in motion are not experiences but are a sine qua non for experiencing the behavior ... and these behaviors differ by breed. Fred Horak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021011/085910d9/attachment.html From SharHill at aol.com Fri Oct 11 20:30:48 2002 From: SharHill at aol.com (SharHill@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] sibling memory and recognition of each other, Message-ID: <1a8.a17eb53.2ad8c738@aol.com> I am interested in the bonds retained between ewe and lambs after weaning. For example, last week, I moved 2 wethers, aged 1 1/2 years to a field directly adjoining a field where their mothers were. They had been weaned well over a year ago and had been in separate fields all summer. Somehow, the wethers found a place where they could wiggle under the fence and get into the field with their mothers. It seemed strange to me, because the field the wethers were in had been resting for a while and had more and better grass. I could see no reason for them to go to all that trouble to get into the inferior field. The only thing I could think of was: Their mothers were there. Do Jacobs normally retain family bonds this long? Or perhaps they got under the fence because it was there, and they wanted to see if they could do it. Also, an 8 month old pair of twin lambs, wether and ewe, are so closely bonded, they stay with each other constantly. Sometimes the whole flock is in one place, and they are off together, someplace else. I couldn't bear to separate them and put the wether in with the other wethers. It seems very sweet to me, that they are so close. It is one of those things that makes raising these sheep so enjoyable. Sharon Hill Kingston,GA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021011/9e0ee31c/attachment.htm From critterland at bendcable.com Fri Oct 11 22:37:05 2002 From: critterland at bendcable.com (Melody) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] sibling memory and recognition of each other, References: <1a8.a17eb53.2ad8c738@aol.com> Message-ID: <004a01c27198$4112bd30$c469dc42@hale01> I have not had any experience with lambs and their mothers being separated for long periods and then reunited, but I know that family groups in my flock tend to stay together, perhaps not "inseparable" but they hang out in the same areas and bed down together, lambs, moms, and grandmas. Also had a young ewe "adopt" another weaned lamb. The adoptee is a shetland/jacob cross ewe lamb, whose mother and twin brother were sold to the same person shortly after the lambs were weaned. The little ewe lamb was completely lost for a couple days, and then started following Pippin and her lamb Bunny, who was about the same age and also weaned. Bunny's twin had also been sold, so Pippin was short a lamb and soon began to act as though the newcomer was her own. Now both lambs are nearly 7 mo. old, and the three are still a recognizable family unit in the barn and field. Melody at CritterLand Redmond OR ----- Original Message ----- From: SharHill@aol.com To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 5:30 PM Subject: [Jacob-list] sibling memory and recognition of each other, I am interested in the bonds retained between ewe and lambs after weaning. For example, last week, I moved 2 wethers, aged 1 1/2 years to a field directly adjoining a field where their mothers were. They had been weaned well over a year ago and had been in separate fields all summer. Somehow, the wethers found a place where they could wiggle under the fence and get into the field with their mothers. It seemed strange to me, because the field the wethers were in had been resting for a while and had more and better grass. I could see no reason for them to go to all that trouble to get into the inferior field. The only thing I could think of was: Their mothers were there. Do Jacobs normally retain family bonds this long? Or perhaps they got under the fence because it was there, and they wanted to see if they could do it. Also, an 8 month old pair of twin lambs, wether and ewe, are so closely bonded, they stay with each other constantly. Sometimes the whole flock is in one place, and they are off together, someplace else. I couldn't bear to separate them and put the wether in with the other wethers. It seems very sweet to me, that they are so close. It is one of those things that makes raising these sheep so enjoyable. Sharon Hill Kingston,GA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021011/61ea216e/attachment.html From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com Sat Oct 12 07:09:32 2002 From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Hansson) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] sibling memory and recognition of each other, In-Reply-To: <004a01c27198$4112bd30$c469dc42@hale01> Message-ID: <000401c271df$d79f9240$09dc5818@triad.rr.com> The Twigg group has been an interesting work in progress the past few months. On this particular topic, I have been most interested to see the families and how they did NOT re-unite between the sheep I got in early May and the rest of the flock brought home at the end of August. None of those sheep re-grouped with the original sheep. They all act like they know one another, but the family ties and bonds within the flock were not re-built. If you think about it, often when using breeding groups with multiple rams and split up family groups within a flock, the family groups do not re-unite after breeding season. New friendships have formed and those seem to last to the next breeding season most often. There are exceptions of course to these patterns. Mary Ellen Hansson, ISeeSpots Farm Jacob Sheep: Those horny, fuzzy critters Shop: Knitting, crochet, spinning supplies www.iseespots.com (336) 854-6209 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021012/8709b75e/attachment.htm From perfectspot at blueridge.net Sat Oct 12 10:34:16 2002 From: perfectspot at blueridge.net (Cathy Robinson) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] sibling memory and recognition of each other, References: <000401c271df$d79f9240$09dc5818@triad.rr.com> Message-ID: <3DA832E8.9842AD5B@blueridge.net> I agree with Mary Ellen that this is evident to varying degrees within the same flock, mostly dependent, I believe, on the mother. We have a couple of ewes here that form VERY strong bonds with their children and those family groups always re-unite even after an extended separation. Their own family group grows with the addition of new offspring each year. One particular ewe was separated from her daughter at breeding time last year when the ewe lamb went into the non-breeding group. When groups were re-shuffled and re-grouped some 8+ months later here and they were again in the same group, they quickly found one another and were basically inseparable. They have recently been separated again...daughter is in the breeding group this year and mom is not, so will be interesting to watch it happen again, as I am sure it will. Cathy Perfect Spot Farm Mary Hansson wrote: > The Twigg group has been an interesting work in progress the past few > months. On this particular topic, I have been most interested to see > the families and how they did NOT re-unite between the sheep I got in > early May and the rest of the flock brought home at the end of > August. None of those sheep re-grouped with the original sheep. They > all act like they know one another, but the family ties and bonds > within the flock were not re-built. If you think about it, often when > using breeding groups with multiple rams and split up family groups > within a flock, the family groups do not re-unite after breeding > season. New friendships have formed and those seem to last to the > next breeding season most often. There are exceptions of course to > these patterns.Mary Ellen Hansson, ISeeSpots Farm > Jacob Sheep: Those horny, fuzzy critters > Shop: Knitting, crochet, spinning supplies > www.iseespots.com (336) 854-6209 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021012/466983e8/attachment.html From MarmontJacobs at aol.com Sat Oct 12 16:13:56 2002 From: MarmontJacobs at aol.com (MarmontJacobs@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Cu Deficiency Message-ID: Hi Sharon, I haven't had any experience of swayback in newborn lambs, but delayed swayback caused by copper deficiency (or a misbalance of other minerals to give the effect of copper deficiency) has shown up as a failure to thrive accompanied by a distinct grey band in the fleece at around 6ish months of age (apparently quite variable timescale). Then (before the copper boluses) a weakness in the front pasterns in one or two lambs a year (out of around 25 or so) such that one pastern might even buckle under on longish grass. Then a dullness in their demeanour and loss of appetite. Following our move a month ago to Montgomeryshire, Wales...more sheep than people it seems...I have just lost one of my favourite ewes to the meningitis form of Listeria - very rapid onset and believed to be caused by the entry of the bacteria through an abrasion in the mouth from rabbit-disturbed earth. Afrikah was our first lamb and first Champion - very sad. This evening my husband is bringing our last batch of sheep across from Norfolk - think of us in the dark "encouraging" ewe lambs up a bank and across a stream with stepping stones as the llamas temporary paddock is in the way of the gate. What we do for our sheep. Trisha M-S Marmont Jacobs and Willow Farm Llamas, Montgomeryshire From rbskarin at webtv.net Sun Oct 13 18:13:34 2002 From: rbskarin at webtv.net (Barb & Ron Skarin) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] horns Message-ID: <3289-3DA9F00E-8252@storefull-2353.public.lawson.webtv.net> What do you mean by scurred horns? From Jacobflock at aol.com Mon Oct 14 18:42:50 2002 From: Jacobflock at aol.com (Jacobflock@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Horns and scurs Message-ID: <8.2e494755.2adca26a@aol.com> "Scurred horns" might be an oxymoron. Scurs are not horns. Some scurs may look something like horns but the "plasticized" appearance and absence of the characterisitc fibrous keratin, shape, lack of growth and stubbiness often give them away. Aberrant horns have the fibrous keratin but are thin, lack a real horn core, are extremely weak and often "fall" away. Horns and scurs are species specific, may even be breed specific within species and is only recently being explored. CATTLE: The horn gene in cattle was only confirmed as located on chromosome 1 in the early 1990s. Scurs, which are small "horn-like" growths but not true horns, and aberrant horns which might be described as "floppy, weak, diminutive" horns, have been described for over 100 years. Until the 1990s, domestic animals with horns were thought to have a "horn" gene/or "poll" gene on chromosome 1. The presence of scurs was also thought to be on chromosome 1 (related to the horn gene) but there is now evidence it is not always there but 'somewhere' else. SHEEP: For many years it was assumed anything with horns had a "horn" gene on the same chromosome 1. In 1996, the common theory that the sheep horn locus was also on chromosome 1 (like cattle, etc.) was dispelled by G.W. Montomery, et al. and placed at chromosome 10. This reference can be obtained from your library: Mapping the horns locus in sheep - a further locus contrrolling horn development in domestic animals. Journal of Hered 87, pp 358-363. Montgomery et al is related to 2 horns. Because there is a difference between two and four horn, Alderson proposes that the horn condition might be HO (two horn) or HMN (multiple horn). Two and four horn location and dominance are still questions. Scurs are not horns, the Sc gene is PROBABLY at another locus, and there are two situations that must be considered <>: (1) 2 horn sheep and (2) 4 or multi horn sheep. Scurs (Sc) are described as AN AUTOSOMAL LOCUS that includes scurs and aberrant horns in both rams and ewes. Hornless (Hohl) is described as short scurs, long scurs and aberrant horns which IS SEX LIMITED and observed only in ewes. If the Jacob is "horned in both rams and ewes", short scurs, long scurs, and aberrant horns should not be present. Very few breeders have reported polled, scurrrred and aberrant horn offspring from two horn parentage. When born, they are culled without questioning the sire or dam and their pedigree. Four horn sheep are sometimes reported as having weak or scurred lateral horns; sometimes it is observed only after being registered. A few Jacob-listers have reported apparent scurs and aberrant horn observations related to the lateral or drop horns of apparent four horn offspring. These reports are not unequivocal and sometimes explained by trauma but most scur and aberrant horn observations seem to be limited to ewes. This seems to suggest consideration of the Hohl allele which is sex limited ... the Hohl interacting with the HNM (multiple horn) locus affecting four horn ewes. I put part of this year's collection of Hohl evidence in the mail before taking any pictures but several pictures of Hohl "jacobs" with scurs and aberrant horns are available in books (I. Painter), periodicals (JSC Journal) and video tapes (TN Public TV). Pedigree sources for scurs may be found in the AMBC Jacob listings and registry flock books. Fred Horak From wolfpen at rabun.net Mon Oct 14 19:05:39 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Horns and scurs In-Reply-To: <8.2e494755.2adca26a@aol.com> Message-ID: <200210141856471.SM01108@u7c4j2> On the same topic, but a little off center - - Is a "scurred ewe" a ewe that has ONLY scurs or a ewe that has two strong horns plus scurs??? I've read the term "scurred ewe" in some literature and have never been quite clear on what is refers to. Linda On Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:42:50 EDT, Jacobflock@aol.com wrote: >"Scurred horns" might be an oxymoron.  Scurs are not horns.  Some >scurs may >look something like horns but the "plasticized" appearance and >absence of the >characterisitc fibrous keratin, shape, lack of growth and stubbiness >often >give them away.  Aberrant horns have the fibrous keratin but are >thin, lack a >real horn core, are extremely weak and often "fall" away. > >Horns and scurs are species specific, may even be breed specific >within >species and is only recently being explored. > >CATTLE: The horn gene in cattle was only confirmed as located on >chromosome 1 >in the early 1990s.  Scurs, which are small "horn-like" growths but >not true >horns, and aberrant horns which might be described as "floppy, weak, >diminutive" horns, have been described for over 100 years.  Until >the 1990s, >domestic animals with horns were thought to have a "horn" gene/or >"poll" gene >on chromosome 1.  The presence of scurs was also thought to be on >chromosome >1 (related to the horn gene) but there is now evidence it is not >always there >but 'somewhere' else. > >SHEEP: For many years it was assumed anything with horns had a >"horn" gene on >the same chromosome 1.  In 1996, the common theory that the sheep >horn locus >was also on chromosome 1 (like cattle, etc.) was dispelled by G.W. >Montomery, >et al. and placed at chromosome 10.  This reference can be obtained >from your >library: Mapping the horns locus in sheep - a further locus >contrrolling horn >development in domestic animals. Journal of Hered 87, pp 358-363. >Montgomery >et al is related to 2 horns.  Because there is a difference between >two and >four horn, Alderson proposes that the horn condition might be HO >(two horn) >or HMN (multiple horn).   Two and four horn location and dominance >are still >questions. > >Scurs are not horns, the Sc gene is PROBABLY at another locus, and >there are >two situations that must be considered <confusing>>: >(1) 2 horn sheep and (2) 4 or multi horn sheep. > >Scurs (Sc) are described as AN AUTOSOMAL LOCUS that includes scurs >and >aberrant horns in both rams and ewes.   Hornless (Hohl) is described >as short >scurs, long scurs and aberrant horns which IS SEX LIMITED and >observed only >in ewes. > >If the Jacob is "horned in both rams and ewes", short scurs, long >scurs, and >aberrant horns should not be present.  Very few breeders have >reported >polled, scurrrred and aberrant horn offspring from two horn >parentage.  When >born, they are culled without questioning the sire or dam and their >pedigree. > > >Four horn sheep are sometimes reported as having weak or scurred >lateral >horns; sometimes it is observed only after being registered.  A few >Jacob-listers have reported apparent scurs and aberrant horn >observations >related to the lateral or drop horns of apparent four horn >offspring.  These >reports are not unequivocal and sometimes explained by trauma but >most scur >and aberrant horn observations seem to be limited to ewes.  This >seems to >suggest consideration of the Hohl allele which is sex limited  ... >the Hohl >interacting with the HNM (multiple horn) locus affecting four horn >ewes. > >I put part of this year's collection of Hohl evidence in the mail >before >taking any pictures but several pictures of Hohl "jacobs" with scurs >and >aberrant horns are available in books (I. Painter), periodicals (JSC >Journal) >and video tapes (TN Public TV).  Pedigree sources for scurs may be >found in >the AMBC Jacob listings and registry flock books. > >Fred Horak > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Jacob-list mailing list >Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From oberlef at supernet.com Wed Oct 16 07:55:57 2002 From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] ad: ram for sale Message-ID: <41200210316115557460@supernet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021016/0cabeb95/attachment.htm From oberlef at supernet.com Wed Oct 16 07:55:53 2002 From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] virus Message-ID: <41200210316115553510@supernet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021016/cdb2be60/attachment.html From nlgrose at yadtel.net Wed Oct 16 10:27:05 2002 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] virus References: <41200210316115553510@supernet.com> Message-ID: <000501c27520$1aa01fe0$0207a8c0@home> It got in on our computer past the McAFee email scan. Which I find really annoying. We had to run the full system scan to get it out. It was in about a 6 or 7 different places. Neal ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave & Katrina To: jacob-list Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:55 AM Subject: [Jacob-list] virus Anyone having problems with the bugbear virus?..it is hitting a lot of people, so watch out for it. It does strange things like copy part of a e-mail and mails it to someone else in your address book. sometimes it is even stranger. One friend said her relative got a message from one of our contacts as well as his e-mail that was at least a year or two old. It is not even on our computer now. How does that work? The virus was out the beginning of Oct and was working its way thru the felting list I was on. Updating virus protection should catch it now... Katrina --- Dave & Katrina O. Lefever --- oberlef@supernet.com --- Chicory Lane Farm --- http://wwwfac.mcdaniel.edu/Graduate/TI/pages/lefever/chicory.htm _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021016/9b201f99/attachment.htm From lambfarm at sover.net Wed Oct 16 13:22:16 2002 From: lambfarm at sover.net (Betty Berlenbach) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] diversification Message-ID: <003401c27539$0691cf80$0150c6d1@lambfarm> HI, all, Anyone out there interested in introducing a few shetlands into their jacob flock for interesting color contrast out on the field and interesting, fine fleeces? I have a couple of older ewes, a ram, a ram lamb, and a ewe lamb all available: different colors, either with papers, or sold without fairly cheaply. Diversify! Almost as easy to manage as jacob, about 20 pounds smaller, ewes have no horns, but most of them, I can lift up off the ground, if I don't have to drag them too far! Betty in Vermont. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021016/8475f218/attachment.html From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com Thu Oct 17 05:39:25 2002 From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Hansson) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] ad: ram for sale In-Reply-To: <41200210316115557460@supernet.com> Message-ID: <000b01c275c1$14744fa0$09dc5818@triad.rr.com> Katrina, You are so right---good rams ARE worth their weight in gold! OPP testing results came back on 59 sheep all negative. Waa-Hoo! I figured it would be, but with it being about 3 years and lots of changes in animals, there was always the possibility of a problem popping up. Mary Ellen Hansson, ISeeSpots Farm Jacob Sheep: Those horny, fuzzy critters Shop: Knitting, crochet, spinning supplies www.iseespots.com (336) 854-6209 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021017/21afc2c5/attachment.htm From rbskarin at webtv.net Fri Oct 18 22:07:01 2002 From: rbskarin at webtv.net (Barb & Ron Skarin) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] shearing Message-ID: <21221-3DB0BE45-3402@storefull-2354.public.lawson.webtv.net> Does anyone know of someone who shears sheep in western Iowa or eastern Nebraska? I know it is early but I want to be ready in the spring. From perfectspot at blueridge.net Tue Oct 22 10:44:10 2002 From: perfectspot at blueridge.net (Cathy Robinson) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:27 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] For Sale Message-ID: <3DB5643A.B2128579@blueridge.net> As many of you in the southeast are aware, the annual Southeastern Animal Fiber Fair (SAFF) will be happening this week-end in the Asheville, NC area on Saturday and Sunday. I am looking forward to it, and to seeing several list-members that I know will be there. We still have some very nice 2002 lambs here that are available for sale (2 ram lambs, 3 ewe lambs). While we will not be taking animals for display at the event, our farm is convenient to I-26 and less than an hour from the fairgrounds. Cathy Robinson Perfect Spot Farm From LBBDVM at aol.com Tue Oct 22 15:38:05 2002 From: LBBDVM at aol.com (LBBDVM@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece Message-ID: <12e.197cea7d.2ae7031d@aol.com> Hi all, I was collecting a ram fleece sample for JSBA registration and was really surprised to find that close to the skin the fleece is really crimpy. I wasn't expecting this as the "surface" wool does not appear crimped at all. He is about 8 months old. I'm afraid this might be a problem for registration. Is this likely to be a problem? Is the fleece likely to change significantly as he gets older? Thanks in advance for your help! Lia Belanger Book Hickory Hill Farm Elizabethtown, PA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021022/21b18070/attachment.html From mhansson1 at triad.rr.com Tue Oct 22 16:36:18 2002 From: mhansson1 at triad.rr.com (Mary Hansson) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece In-Reply-To: <12e.197cea7d.2ae7031d@aol.com> Message-ID: <000601c27a0a$ac88bfe0$09dc5818@triad.rr.com> Most people in the sheep industry make a large distinction between lamb fleece and adult fleece. I have never understood why it would be different for this breed of sheep. There is a wide variation in fleeces from crimpy to not crimpy. Of course, if a particular registry accepts certain traits and does not accept others for registry.....and your animal is displaying traits that are not accepted, it would be failed. That would be the time to ask what you are registering. It is a valid means of solidifying traits in any breed and to make the animals in a recognized breed more uniform. Mary Ellen Hansson, ISeeSpots Farm Jacob Sheep: Those horny, fuzzy critters Shop: Knitting, crochet, spinning supplies www.iseespots.com (336) 854-6209 -----Original Message----- From: jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com [mailto:jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com] On Behalf Of LBBDVM@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 3:38 PM To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece Hi all, I was collecting a ram fleece sample for JSBA registration and was really surprised to find that close to the skin the fleece is really crimpy. I wasn't expecting this as the "surface" wool does not appear crimped at all. He is about 8 months old. I'm afraid this might be a problem for registration. Is this likely to be a problem? Is the fleece likely to change significantly as he gets older? Thanks in advance for your help! Lia Belanger Book Hickory Hill Farm Elizabethtown, PA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021022/ae229c23/attachment.htm From creaganlios at prexar.com Tue Oct 22 17:42:11 2002 From: creaganlios at prexar.com (Thomas Simmons) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece In-Reply-To: <000601c27a0a$ac88bfe0$09dc5818@triad.rr.com> Message-ID: MessageOf course, if a particular registry accepts certain traits and does not accept others for registry.....and your animal is displaying traits that are not accepted, it would be failed. That would be the time to ask what you are registering Or, to ask why you are registering..... :-) Thom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021022/e647ee02/attachment.html From spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com Tue Oct 22 17:57:10 2002 From: spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com (Mary Spahr) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece Message-ID: <001b01c27a15$fa1865c0$1e449ed8@n2g2k3> If there is some question as to whether a fleece would pass the JSBA registration process, the owner could submit a sample for micron testing to Yocum McColl laboratory. This will show if the fleece is too coarse or too fine to fall within the breed standard, which has allowed for considerable diversity. It will also show if the fleece is double-coated, which is atypical of a Jacob fleece. Fleeces with crimp have not been automatically failed just because they have some crimp. There are other characteristics involved, such as handle. If it is as fine as a Merino, with crimpiness, for example, then it is not within the accepted range. Mary Spahr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021022/a6cd98ec/attachment.htm From nlgrose at yadtel.net Tue Oct 22 17:51:31 2002 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece References: Message-ID: <002001c27a15$2f1e1e00$0207a8c0@home> MessageHere's the deal: *We register because we all need to speak the same language, not that we need to think the same thing. *We register because we have seen great, rare groups of animals pass away with their owner because no one knew what the heck they were, or that they existed. We have seen considerable variation in the change in fleeces from lamb to maturity...have patience. Neal Grose ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Simmons To: Mary Hansson ; LBBDVM@aol.com ; jacob-list@jacobsheep.com Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:42 PM Subject: RE: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece Of course, if a particular registry accepts certain traits and does not accept others for registry.....and your animal is displaying traits that are not accepted, it would be failed. That would be the time to ask what you are registering Or, to ask why you are registering..... :-) Thom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021022/a1ee2af4/attachment.html From wolfpen at rabun.net Tue Oct 22 18:22:26 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece In-Reply-To: <12e.197cea7d.2ae7031d@aol.com> Message-ID: <20021022181381.SM01108@u7c4j2> I posted a picture awhile back of a staple from a ram lamb about the same age as yours. It was to illustrate how the staple structure can change as a lamb matures. This particular guy had a very straight birth fleece which slowly began to develop crimp. His fleece turned out very nice with lots of bounce. His fleece started out straight, got some wave and ended up with a rather soft crimp. He was not submitted for JSBA registration as we had alot of rams that year and he was invited to move indoors. He was JSC certified for his parent's progeny test. I saw no problem with his fleece being acceptable for registration with JSBA. Lots of lambs seem to be born with a straightish birth fleece. In a few months, the crimp starts to develop. The picture is still up at: http://www.patchworkfibers.com/lock.jpg Linda On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:38:05 EDT, LBBDVM@aol.com wrote: >Hi all, >I was collecting a ram fleece sample for JSBA registration and was >really surprised to find that close to the skin the fleece is really >crimpy.??I wasn't expecting this as the "surface" wool does not >appear crimped at all.??He is about 8 months old.??I'm afraid this >might be a problem for registration.? > >Is this likely to be a problem? Is the fleece likely to change >significantly as he gets older? > >Thanks in advance for your help! >Lia Belanger Book >Hickory Hill Farm >Elizabethtown, PA? Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From creaganlios at prexar.com Tue Oct 22 19:15:44 2002 From: creaganlios at prexar.com (Thomas Simmons) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece In-Reply-To: <002001c27a15$2f1e1e00$0207a8c0@home> Message-ID: MessageHere's the deal: *We register because we all need to speak the same language, not that we need to think the same thing * Oooooh...guess I touched a nerve, huh?! Actually, we don't all need to speak the same language. But you would prefer for a variety of reasons, many of them very good, that we did. But animals existed long befroe registries, and will exist long after registries. As you well know, the "Jacob" as we have it today is NOT the Jacob of 200 years ago, or 1000 years ago, or whenever..breeds come and go, and life goes on, and there is *nothing* magical about freezing a breed in a particular period of time. Having said that, I *do* see the value of registries, but hasten to point out that the majority of Jacobs in the US today are *not* registered. Which also speaks volumes...... Thom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021022/da599adc/attachment.htm From wolfpen at rabun.net Tue Oct 22 19:18:10 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200210221909139.SM01108@u7c4j2> Just curious - not arguing or challenging or in any way getting into any sort of conflict here (never again!!!) - where does this information come from? Got nothing against unregistered flocks. Linda On Tue, 22 Oct 2002 19:15:44 -0400, Thomas Simmons wrote: >Having  said that, I *do* see the value of registries, but hasten to >point out that the  majority of Jacobs in the US today are *not* >registered.  Which also speaks  volumes...... > >Thom > > > Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com Wed Oct 23 11:50:54 2002 From: spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com (Mary Spahr) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] crimpy fleece, etc. Message-ID: <000e01c27aab$f973b020$64449ed8@n2g2k3> My post about crimpy fleece did not go through for some reason, so I resent it. I believe that registries are a valuable way to keep track of a breed. They help us to know about how many of the breed are out there and how many are rams or ewes. Pedigree info and other statistics can be compiled into flock books. Of course it is a free country and anyone can breed any animal and not get it registered. I feel that it is risky, especially for a novice just getting started, to purchase a non-registered animal. We all know there are many crossbred Jacob sheep that could be passed off by someone unscrupulous as a purebred animal. Or perhaps the seller really believes the sheep is a purebred Jacob. A lady at the fiber show we attend in Sept. wanted to show me a picture of her 'Jacob ewe.' She had to keep her at a friend's house with the friend's pet goat. I could tell she was very proud of her sheep, so did not have the heart to tell her that her very dark, polled ewe was a crossbred and not a purebred Jacob at all. We do need to have established characteristics that define a breed. Maybe this is what Neal meant by 'speaking the same language'. Fortunately, there is room for lots of diversity within our breed so we do not all end up with Jacob lookalikes. I tend to think that the majority of purebred Jacobs in the U.S. are registered. There are many so-called Jacob sheep showing up at auctions that are not pure-bred at all. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021023/85efca30/attachment.html From spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com Wed Oct 23 12:09:18 2002 From: spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com (Mary Spahr) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fw: crimpy fleece Message-ID: <003a01c27aae$8be90e80$64449ed8@n2g2k3> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Spahr To: Jacob List Members Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: crimpy fleece If there is some question as to whether a fleece would pass the JSBA registration process, the owner could submit a sample for micron testing to Yocum McColl laboratory. This will show if the fleece is too coarse or too fine to fall within the breed standard, which has allowed for considerable diversity. It will also show if the fleece is double-coated, which is atypical of a Jacob fleece. Fleeces with crimp have not been automatically failed just because they have some crimp. There are other characteristics involved, such as handle. If it is as fine as a Merino, with crimpiness, for example, then it is not within the accepted range. Mary Spahr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021023/cc35ba33/attachment.htm From lynmarkman at yahoo.com Wed Oct 23 12:49:13 2002 From: lynmarkman at yahoo.com (Lynn Markman) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Please change my email address! Message-ID: <20021023164913.97979.qmail@web14001.mail.yahoo.com> ===== Lynnie __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ From spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com Wed Oct 23 17:32:08 2002 From: spahrfarm at dragonbbs.com (Mary Spahr) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Fw: crimpy fleece Message-ID: <001b01c27adb$a66d4280$61449ed8@n2g2k3> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mary Spahr To: Jacob List Members Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:57 PM Subject: crimpy fleece If there is some question as to whether a fleece would pass the JSBA registration process, the owner could submit a sample for micron testing to Yocum McColl laboratory. This will show if the fleece is too coarse or too fine to fall within the breed standard, which has allowed for considerable diversity. It will also show if the fleece is double-coated, which is atypical of a Jacob fleece. Fleeces with crimp have not been automatically failed just because they have some crimp. There are other characteristics involved, such as handle. If it is as fine as a Merino, with crimpiness, for example, then it is not within the accepted range. Mary Spahr -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021023/b6425ac0/attachment.html From durbins at tristate.edu Thu Oct 24 14:27:18 2002 From: durbins at tristate.edu (Sally Durbin) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Pelts Message-ID: <3DB83B86.8090704@tristate.edu> Question -- I know a while back there was a discussion on having your jacob pelts processed and you had listed a couple different places that did a good job -- of course at that time I didn't think to print that information out and keep it -- I would appreciate any feedback on this and what all you had to do to your pelts before sending them in -- salted ? I have been thinking about having at least one or a few done this way as we had some interest in this -- but don't have much info. to go on. Thanks for any input. -- Sally Durbin Angola, IN 46703 From creaganlios at prexar.com Thu Oct 24 16:13:14 2002 From: creaganlios at prexar.com (Thomas Simmons) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Pelts In-Reply-To: <3DB83B86.8090704@tristate.edu> Message-ID: (1)Bucks County Fur Products Box 204 220 1/2 North AmblerStreet (rear) Quakertown, PA 18951 (215) 536-6614 (2) Moosehead Tanners Moosehead Industrial Park Box 1242 Greenville, Maine 04441 (207) 695-0272 I recommend calling first to get explicit instructions on how to pre-treat your pelts before mailing. Hope that helps. Thom Simmons Creaganlios Farm Westmoreland, NH 03467 -----Original Message----- From: jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com [mailto:jacob-list-admin@jacobsheep.com]On Behalf Of Sally Durbin Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 2:27 PM To: jacob-list@jacobsheep.com Subject: [Jacob-list] Pelts Question -- I know a while back there was a discussion on having your jacob pelts processed and you had listed a couple different places that did a good job -- of course at that time I didn't think to print that information out and keep it -- I would appreciate any feedback on this and what all you had to do to your pelts before sending them in -- salted ? I have been thinking about having at least one or a few done this way as we had some interest in this -- but don't have much info. to go on. Thanks for any input. -- Sally Durbin Angola, IN 46703 _______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing list Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list From LBBDVM at aol.com Fri Oct 25 08:53:33 2002 From: LBBDVM at aol.com (LBBDVM@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] thanks Message-ID: Thanks everybody for your thoughts on my crimpy fleece Lia -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021025/43e17491/attachment.htm From oberlef at supernet.com Tue Oct 29 13:12:20 2002 From: oberlef at supernet.com (Dave & Katrina) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Cows...er..sheep. Message-ID: <41200210229181220590@supernet.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021029/907ce0bf/attachment.html From snielsen at orednet.org Tue Oct 29 13:28:48 2002 From: snielsen at orednet.org (Susan Nielsen) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Cows...er..sheep. In-Reply-To: <41200210229181220590@supernet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Oct 2002, Dave & Katrina wrote: > We might have to put an end to this great arrangement cause this morning > a passer-by drove back our long lane to let us know that the 'cows' were > out! Honestly, that was his words. This is a pretty rural area too! > *smiles* Har! I've had people react that way to photos, though not to the actual animals. But one lady looked at them and said: "Gateway Sheep! They're the notebook version!" Susan -- Susan Layne Nielsen, Shambles Workshops |"...Gently down the Beavercreek, OR, USA -- snielsen@orednet.org |stream..." -- Anon. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Purveyors of fine honey, Jacob Sheep, Ashford spinning products and Interweave books From MarmontJacobs at aol.com Tue Oct 29 15:35:06 2002 From: MarmontJacobs at aol.com (MarmontJacobs@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Cows Message-ID: We've had this comment too - from supposedly rural teenagers (with teacher in tow) at a County Show. My 5yo son has seen Jacob rabbits, Jacob cows, Jacob dogs, Jacob pygmy goats, Jacob horses.......must have a patent on the pattern! Trisha M-S Marmont Jacobs, Montgomeryshire, Wales From ACAMDA at aol.com Tue Oct 29 16:02:36 2002 From: ACAMDA at aol.com (ACAMDA@aol.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Cows...er..sheep. Message-ID: <108.1a326258.2af0516c@aol.com> Shortly after we got our sheep in January (hours after, actually) they had skinnied under the electric fence and escaped into the nearby pastures, woods and neighborhoods. One very kind older lady called animal control and said there were two llamas walking down her road! Luckily the next morning they were found asleep in a friend's front yard about 2 miles from our house. Kathey W. Sweet Georgia Valley Farm Athens, GA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021029/1bf3818b/attachment.htm From creaganlios at prexar.com Tue Oct 29 16:06:09 2002 From: creaganlios at prexar.com (Thomas Simmons) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Jacob Cows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And I have had my Jacons called "Holstein Sheep" up here by cow-happy vermonters. Of course, that's forgivable, compared to the Border Crossing Guard who, when I was importing sheep from Canada, accused me of trying to smuggle DEER into the US! Thom From wolfpen at rabun.net Tue Oct 29 16:15:55 2002 From: wolfpen at rabun.net (Linda) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] Cows...er..sheep. In-Reply-To: <41200210229181220590@supernet.com> Message-ID: <200210291600710.SM01108@u7c4j2> A young man was here with his grandmother (who was born in our house and wanted to revisit it). He said something about the "goats." I told him that they were sheep. He said, "no, I can see goats standing over there." I explained that they were Jacob Sheep and that many people mistook them for goats, but they were truly sheep. With a rather pitying tone, he told me, "I don't know what they told you when you bought them, but they gave you goats." Linda On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:12:20 -0500, Dave & Katrina wrote: >Since the list is quiet, i thought I'd pass along something that >happened here this morning.... >We have a unfenced alfalfa/orchard grass pasture that is pretty tall >right now so we let the sheep out every day to graze it.  Works >pretty well since the main road is pretty far away and there was >corn bordering the pasture. When it was tall the sheep did not like >to venture into it. Recently the corn was harvested and the sheep >have taken to leaving our pasture and roaming around the corn field >looking for kernels that were left behind (they usually just go back >into the barn themselves when they are full or scared by >something...)  > >We might have to put an end to this great arrangement cause this >morning a passer-by drove back our long lane to let us know that the >'cows' were out!  Honestly, that was his words.  This is a pretty >rural area too!  *smiles* >Katrina >--- Dave & Katrina O. Lefever >--- oberlef@supernet.com >--- Chicory Lane Farm >--- http://wwwfac.mcdaniel.edu/Graduate/TI/pages/lefever/chicory.htm  > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ Jacob-list mailing >list Jacob-list@jacobsheep.com >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/jacob-list Visit our Jacob flock at: http://www.PatchworkFibers.com Registered Jacob Sheep Handspun Yarns From shepherdofspots at yahoo.com Tue Oct 29 17:58:06 2002 From: shepherdofspots at yahoo.com (J Thomas) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] NC State Fair Report & comments re: Jacob Cows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20021029225806.90568.qmail@web40707.mail.yahoo.com> We are just settling down from showing sheep at the NC State Fair's Wool Sheep show last week. I am happy to report Son-Rise Jacob Sheep won two third place ribbons (in classes of 13 - 14 sheep) and a 10th place in youth costume class!! (We also won a third place with I See Spots Dustin (a shetland wether) in a fleece class, and a sixth place with my newest addition PTF 373 Mollie (border leicester ewe lamb))! Since this was our first "real" show, we were very pleased!! Son-Rise MorningStar was shown by me in a junior ewe class (born after 1/1/2002), the other by my son in a junior (youth) class (also for jr ewes born after 1/1/2002). His ewe Son-Rise MorningGlory also earned him a 10th place in a youth (ages 3 - 18) costume class. He was dressed as a shepherd. Hope to get pics soon! Question re MD Sheep & Wool Jacob show - do the Jacobs need to be registered? If so, with either JSC or JSBA? Currently, mine are purebred, but not registered. Am thinking ahead for next year. If they need to be registered, I must get going on this. Also think I need to pay up with my dues. These ewes could be shown in Maryland -- my 2003 lambs probably won't arrive in time to meet the 2/15/03 deadline. Re: Jacob cows -- we took a Jacob ewe to church a couple of weeks ago to be part of a drama. One young lady looked at Son-Rise Victoria-Bethany and said, "OH, mommy! LOOK! A DALMATION!!!" Have a fibery & fleecey day all! Joy ===== Joy Thomas, Shepherd & Fiber Artist Son-Rise Farm, Creedmoor NC Home of The Fleece Flock Jacob, Shetland & Border Leicester Sheep Website: www.shepherdofspots.com E-Mail: joy@shepherdofspots.com __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/ From stonecroft235 at juno.com Wed Oct 30 07:52:17 2002 From: stonecroft235 at juno.com (stonecroft235@juno.com) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] (no subject) Message-ID: <20021030.075217.-640121.0.stonecroft235@juno.com> Hi all: Here in southeast PA we were suffering from drought conditions this summer - actually it's been dry for longer than that - however, this Fall we have been receiving wonderful rains and our pastures look great - our Jacobs are finding plenty of grass. And last night we had quite a bit of sleet - the bark mulched beds were actually white with sleet. Perhaps winter is arriving a bit early? It was strange to see the branches of our sugar maple all iced up and shimmering with an icy glaze - amid the blaze of vibrant oranges, yellows and reds of the leaves still clinging to the branches. Sue Martin Stonecroft Manor Lititz, PA ________________________________________________________________ Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com From nlgrose at yadtel.net Wed Oct 30 09:20:14 2002 From: nlgrose at yadtel.net (Neal and Louise Grose) Date: Wed Feb 2 07:53:28 2005 Subject: [Jacob-list] T-shirt idea for... Message-ID: <001001c2801f$7714f980$0207a8c0@home> Here's a T-shirt idea for those that can't tell a cow from a goat from a sheep based on the Red Stripe beer commercial! Jacobs [insert picture of ram] They're Sheep! Neal Grose PS: feel free to steal this and send me a size large -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.pairlist.net/pipermail/jacob-list/attachments/20021030/20368501/attachment.html