[AGL] reply to Michele's statement

[Michele Mason]

Free will exists and so does the lack of it. That is one of my favorite 
mysteries. The Trinity was much easier for me—where as this one 
promises so much more mystical quiet until the answer comes—maybe not 
this side of the veil. Choose to be happy.  mm

On Nov 2, 2006, at 1:48 PM, Jon Ford wrote:

>
> Bill== Free will? Read some more philosophy. There are plenty of 
> philosophers who would defend the concept of free will/free choice, 
> even without the prop of a wise creator-God. You are simply being 
> dogmatic,asserting a claim without evidence. You could argue that 
> people who believe in free will have a burden to prove it exists, but 
> you can't just state like some tin-pot prophet "free will is a 
> delusion!"
>
> Jon
>
>> From: "Bill Irwin" <billi at aloha.net>
>> Reply-To: survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 
>> 60s<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 
>> 60s"<austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> Subject: Re: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>> Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 09:23:10 -1000
>>
>> Pretty good deconstruction Mike.
>> If you want wisdom you first have to get rid of delusions.  One 
>> delusion
>> that should go first is that one has free will.
>> Aloha
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michael Eisenstadt" <michaele at ando.pair.com>
>> To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s"
>> <austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 5:58 AM
>> Subject: [AGL] reply to Michele's statement
>>
>>
>> > Michele,
>> >
>> > You have often spoken to me on this subject but never at such
>> > length. Permit me to reply interlinearly to some of what you've 
>> written.
>> >
>> > >I believe that God (or whatever name you choose) made us
>> > because He/She needed love—that in some way He was lonely
>> > and because He had a need to "see Himself"
>> >
>> > According to Hegel, the attempt "to see Himself/Oneself" is the
>> > ultimate exercise of human consciousness. This suggests to me
>> > that the attributes you have identified as God's are merely
>> > human projections.
>> >
>> > >He placed us in a perfect place where all our needs were met 
>> (without
>> > spilling a drop of blood). He gave us free will—otherwise how 
>> would we
>> > be like Him and what would our love be worth if we didn't choose it?
>> >
>> > Once again, why does free will require a God? Logically, in assuming
>> > the existence of God, you are committing the error of petitio
>> > principii (assuming the conclusion as your starting point).
>> >
>> > Now I know that you will remind me of your personal experiences
>> > with you know who. That solves the petitio principii problem. But
>> > that brings up the veracity of testimonial or testifying. Would 
>> that I
>> > could accept testimony. Testimony is worthless unless confirmed.
>> >
>> > >Then came curiosity. Had things progressed in the way He wanted, we
>> > would have been good, obedient students, matching knowledge with 
>> wisdom
>> > and growing towards oneness with Him.
>> > The Tree of Knowledge was not all about sex, it was about sex and
>> > everything else. Seduced by instant gratification, we 
>> transgressed—not
>> > waiting to learn wisdom as He intended to teach us.
>> >
>> > You are assuming that "seduced by instant gratification" is a bad
>> > thing. You may know this from personal experience. But that is
>> > not my personal experience. I see absolutely no reason why instant
>> > sexual or other gratification is bad.
>> >
>> > As for wisdom which we all crave, to believe that the deity desires
>> > that we pursue it, that too is a human projection, an admirable
>> > one to be sure. There has been a little progress in the human
>> > pursuit of wisdom. A necessary condition was the invention of
>> > writing. Part of our progress towards wisdom consists of
>> > practicing the ascesis of avoiding logical errors. Part of it has
>> > been the realization that received beliefs (about God and on
>> > other subjects) are to be examined closely for possible errors.
>> > Then we can try to think through the issues. If there is no
>> > reason and no evidence for a belief in God (my viewpoint),
>> > it is best abandonned as an impediment to the pursuit of
>> > wisdom.
>> >
>> > That's as far as i got in your letter at this time.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
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