Ventura musta read Emanuel Todd's book

[Harry Edwards]

Michael, what authority concerning children born out of wedlock do you 
claim? Why can't it be true "on the face of it" or any other way? Are 
you accusing CNN of lying?

Could it be that we who "live in this country" are just not "noticing" 
the truth?

Btw, the statistic cited said that 43% of Americans SOMETIMES approve 
of torture.

This country's involvement with illiteracy is more woeful than the 
statistic cited. See for instance this link:

http://www.main.nc.us/literacy/statistics.html

Mike, it looks to me like your response to these statistics is the most 
"tendentious" (read biased) feature of this whole exchange. Why is this 
stuff so hard to believe? Wake up and look around. The empire has been 
in decline for awhile.

I stand by my previous remark about obfuscation and bullshit. I would 
add innuendo after your reference to Jim Strong.

twisty



On Jan 21, 2005, at 11:32 AM, Michael Eisenstadt wrote:

> Harry,
>
> I read Ventura's article again.
>
> 1/3 of American children born out of wedlock? That cant be true
> on the face of it. We live in this country and we would notice if
> it WERE true. And besides ever if it were true and I don't think
> it is, so what? A very high proportion of  children in Denmark are said
> to be born out of wedlock yet Danish society is often said to be
> exemplary compared to other countries.
>
> 43% of Americans approve of torture? That depends on the wording
> of the question they were asked. It wouldnt be hard to shape a
> question so as to affect the answer. It's done all the time.
>
>>  . The United States is 49th in the world in literacy (The New York 
>> Times, Dec. 12, 2004).
>
> That is a preposterous claim. I would like to see the list of the 48 
> ahead of us.
>
>>  . "The European Union leads the U.S. in ... the number of science 
>> and engineering graduates; public research and development (R&D) 
>> expenditures; and new capital raised" (The European Dream, p.70).
>>
>>  . "Europe surpassed the United States in the mid-1990s as the 
>> largest producer of scientific literature" (The European Dream, 
>> p.70).
>
> European Union's population is 450 million. US population is less than
> 300 million. So these statistics are tendentious because of the 
> disparity
> in population.
>
> By the way I said tendentious, not contentious.
>
> Finally I (and others possibly) would appreciate it if you would
> refrain from invective such as "but enough with the obfuscation
> and bullshit." Please dont turn into another Jim Strong.
>
> Mike
>
> ---- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Edwards" 
> <laughingwolf at ev1.net>
> To: "survivors' reminiscences about Austin Ghetto Daze in the 60s" 
> <austin-ghetto-list at pairlist.net>
> Cc: "ghetto 2" <ghetto2 at lists.whathelps.com>
> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: Ventura musta read Emanuel Todd's book
>
>
>> I know nothing of Emanuel Todd and, as I previously wrote, am no fan 
>> of Ventura. But I strongly question your contention that the 
>> statistics are either "bogus" or "contentious." You offer no proof 
>> for this contention. Attacking Todd's thinking accomplishes little. 
>> This column is about the average American's muddle-headed thinking 
>> that we're "No. 1" in everything. As you will notice if you reread 
>> each statistic, each one is specifically (parenthetically) documented 
>> (no reference to E. Todd). There are a small few with vague basis in 
>> fact, but the majority of the statistics are solid.
>>
>> Oddly enough, I agree with you that they "don't add up to the reality 
>> of life in the US." This is true because this "reality" is the 
>> aforementioned No. 1 dominant paradigm in America. Don't confuse us 
>> with facts.
>>
>> Who cares if Michael Ventura has read Emanuel Todd? Quite obviously, 
>> the column wasn't derived from a book. None of us is "forced to read" 
>> Ventura's writing which is why I nearly missed this one and also why 
>> I sent it out to my Ghetto sisters and brothers with some overlapping 
>> in this case. These facts ought to startle all of us. If you want to 
>> write about the statistics, please do, but enough with the 
>> obfuscation and bullshit.
>>
>> twisty dodds
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 21, 2005, at 8:04 AM, Michael Eisenstadt wrote:
>>
>>> Emanuel Todd is an intellectually dishonest French
>>>  sociologist whose recent book The End of Empire is
>>>  available in English.
>>>
>>> Some of Ventura's/Todd's statistics are bogus, the rest
>>> are tendentious. They don't add up to the reality
>>> of life in the US.
>>>
>>> The basic argument is that America, compared to Europe,
>>> is parasitical in the sense that Americans dont
>>>  really work or have jobs. Todd "proves" this by
>>>  reference to our international trade deficit. This
>>>  is a bogus conclusion. Todd like so many other
>>> talking/writing heads is an ignoramus about
>>> economics and outsourcing. Paul Krugman whose
>>>  politics we all agree with has written several books
>>>  explaining international trading monetary theory. The
>>>  theory itself is counter-intuitive and not easy to grasp.
>>> A country's trade deficit does not make their citizens parasites on 
>>> the rest of the world.
>>>  As for the rich exploiting their workers and the latter's
>>> immiseration, that is a fact of life everywhere and is
>>>  not confined to only rich Americans doing it.
>>>
>>> Ventura's retread of Todd's book belongs where
>>> we actually find it: in the Austin Chronicle. He
>>> writes his articles at 3am in the morning  or so he
>>>  says. That is an amusing conceit which excuses
>>>  much. Unfortunately most of us are forced to read
>>>  him during the day
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>