Theodorakis interview
Michael Eisenstadt
austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Fri Aug 27 11:04:28 2004
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http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/469781.html
very long interview with Theodorakis the great Greek composer by an =
Israeli journalist
he is full of it just like Jim Strong and others but more nuanced.=20
here's a snippet (interviewers' questions in italics)
Mikis Theodorakis, on several occasions, when criticizing Israeli =
policy, you used the Nazi analogy. Criticism of Israeli occupation is =
justified. But why use terms such as "Israel's Nazi mentality" or =
"Israel's Nazi barbarity"?
"To me it seems very natural to make this comparison because Israel is =
very much connected with Nazism. I wrote this to you this morning: After =
the Holocaust, the Jew is the anti-Nazi. Forever. You are condemned to =
be that. Six million voices are calling on you. They are calling out, =
never again camps. They cannot even imagine that Israel would adopt =
similar methods. There is no need for Israel to create the gas chambers. =
If you kill women and children, it's a similar thing."
Israel is doing wrong in the West Bank and Gaza. No argument about that. =
But why not compare it to the French in Algiers or the Dutch in =
Indonesia. Going for the ultimate analogy of evil seems to prove an =
inability to accept the Jews as gray. If they are not white, they are =
the darkest black. If they are not victims, they are murderers.
"Until the Holocaust the Jewish people were victims. One day they said, =
I don't want to be a victim any longer. I'll create a state. I'll show =
that I'm strong. The question is whether this is not a historical trap. =
If you didn't embark on the road to revenge."
What do you mean?
"After World War I, the Germans were victims. The Germans felt they were =
victims. They felt they were just. Others did them wrong and they were =
just. That was the seed of Hitler."
So the Jews of today are like the Germans of the twenties and thirties?
"Hitler, too, said we are not going to be victims any more. We'll arm =
ourselves and we'll have revenge. Look where it led. That is something =
that could happen to Israel."
That's exactly my point. You want us as sheep. You even love us as =
sheep. But you cannot come to terms with the idea that we may use force =
like any other nation.
"The Jews escaped from the wolves' teeth. And you got on boats to go to =
the land of your ancestors. Who wasn't with Israel then? I was. We all =
were. You took a barren land and you turned it green. You created the =
kibbutz, which is the only successful example of democratic communism. =
You created a civilized nation. And when we saw you defend yourselves =
after half of you remained in the gas chambers, we were with you. You =
were David and we stood by you.
"But this changed. Israel became a superpower. It has nuclear arms. It =
is very strong. And whom are you fighting? A million women and children =
and poorly trained Palestinians. So you are Goliath now. Palestine is =
David. And I am with David."
But it goes further than that? You think there was a dramatic =
transformation here. You think the Jews were transformed from being the =
Nazis' victims to being the new Nazis.
"It was a gradual process. The fact that the Jews were led to the gas =
chambers in a peaceful way, almost like lambs, troubled them deeply. =
They wanted to show that they are not sheep. That they can become =
wolves.
"Up to a point this is natural. It's human. But you should have become =
wolf dogs, not wolves.
"I think there is an element of racism here. You Israelis begin to think =
that you are superior to the Arabs just because you have financial power =
and a strong army and an alliance with the superpower."
Do you think we developed a Nazi-like superiority complex?
"When you go and blow up houses, what is it? It's similar to Nazi =
behavior. When you uproot trees, what is it? It's Nazi behavior. When =
you order people out of their homes within an hour, what is it? It's =
Nazi behavior. It's Nazi mentality."
Let's leave politics aside. When you look at us Jews as a whole, what do =
you find impressive and what is intolerable?
"When I was in Israel, I loved the madness of the people there. The =
brains.=20
The joy of life. The drunkenness. A normal person gets drunk when he =
drinks=20
wine. A Jew gets drunk without wine. You too. You don't have to drink at =
all.=20
You are drunk already.
"I also loved the girl in the kibbutz who would wake up in the morning =
to work the land and have her gun with her. She knew how to protect her =
country and fight for her country. I found that very attractive. She was =
a beautiful girl. Like honey, and when she was holding the gun, she was =
even more beautiful. I was much younger then. I was attracted to the =
heroism of Israel. The Jews are a historic phenomenon that attracts me =
enormously. I am envious of it. I don't think anyone can be indifferent =
to it."
And what don't you like about us?
"On a personal level, nothing. You are not different to me or anyone =
else. But what I don't accept in the Jewish people is what I don't =
accept in the Freemasons. The Masonic Lodge is a group of people who =
help each other just because they are members of that lodge. That =
happens among the Jews as well. Especially in sensitive areas like art =
and music. I don't accept that."
The Jews have too much power?
"In certain areas - yes. I don't like these small groupings that support =
one another. I view them as expressions of a racist approach. National =
or religious or Mafia clans are cancerous growths."
What troubles you is that Jews maintain a ghetto attitude even when they =
are not weak anymore. When they are powerful.
"Yes. I ran into it in music, but it happens elsewhere. Especially in =
finance. And in the mass media. This is what makes the Jews =
unattractive."
You think there is a Jewish tendency to dominate?
"To dominate? Yes. And it comes with a superiority complex."
So the sense of superiority and the tendency to control are a feature of =
the Jews?
"Yes. Yes. I think that the Jewish religion that teaches a child from a =
very young age that our God is very strong gives him a sense of =
security. So there is a contradiction there: The people that were =
historically the most fearful, are mentally the less fearful because of =
their religion. But now, when they have great power, this attitude =
becomes dangerous."
just in case you got this far, let me let you in on this truth: the =
jewish child after he=20
is informed of the implications of being born "one of them" loses ALL =
sense of security.=20
as for Israel's actual military situation, they have NOTHING to fear =
because, as any
Palestinian will tell you, the other Arab countries have given the =
Palestine cause
very little material support over the years. Just as long as Israel =
keeps its arsenal=20
up-to-date, they will NEVER have to fear for their security.
as for comparing bulldozing houses to the Nazis shooting 100 civilians =
for
every German killed, to say that is the same thing, as Theodorakis and=20
others say, is evidence either of a mathematical error or some inbred =
malice.
the bulldozing of houses is done to demonstrate to the Arab neighbors=20
still living in their houses that if you permit your son(s) or =
daughter(s)=20
to commit terror acts, you and your family are going to be houseless.=20
I think it is a humane measure in the circumstances. by the way, the
incomplete barrier wall has apparently reduced the terrorist actions=20
to a trickle. that and very good intelligence work in targeting =
terrorists
to exterminate them, is not humane but seems necessary. also
by the way, Israel does NOT have the death penalty. If an Arab is
caught, he may spend most or all of the rest of his life in prison,
but he is NEVER executed. same as the Nazis, right?
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<DIV><FONT size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/469781.html">http://www.haare=
tz.com/hasen/spages/469781.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>very long interview with Theodorakis the =
great Greek=20
composer </FONT><FONT size=3D2>by an Israeli journalist</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>he is full of it just like Jim Strong and =
others but more=20
nuanced. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>here's a snippet (interviewers' questions in=20
italics)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><I>Mikis Theodorakis, on several occasions, when=20
criticizing Israeli policy, you used the Nazi analogy. Criticism of =
Israeli=20
occupation is justified. But why use terms such as "Israel's Nazi =
mentality" or=20
"Israel's Nazi barbarity"?</I><BR>"To me it seems very natural to make =
this=20
comparison because Israel is very much connected with Nazism. I wrote =
this to=20
you this morning: After the Holocaust, the Jew is the anti-Nazi. =
Forever. You=20
are condemned to be that. Six million voices are calling on you. They =
are=20
calling out, never again camps. They cannot even imagine that Israel =
would adopt=20
similar methods. There is no need for Israel to create the gas chambers. =
If you=20
kill women and children, it's a similar thing."<BR><BR><I>Israel is =
doing wrong=20
in the West Bank and Gaza. No argument about that. But why not compare =
it to the=20
French in Algiers or the Dutch in Indonesia. Going for the ultimate =
analogy of=20
evil seems to prove an inability to accept the Jews as gray. If they are =
not=20
white, they are the darkest black. If they are not victims, they are=20
murderers.</I><BR>"Until the Holocaust the Jewish people were victims. =
One day=20
they said, I don't want to be a victim any longer. I'll create a state. =
I'll=20
show that I'm strong. The question is whether this is not a historical =
trap. If=20
you didn't embark on the road to revenge."<BR><BR><I>What do you=20
mean?</I><BR>"After World War I, the Germans were victims. The Germans =
felt they=20
were victims. They felt they were just. Others did them wrong and they =
were=20
just. That was the seed of Hitler."<BR><BR><I>So the Jews of today are =
like the=20
Germans of the twenties and thirties?</I><BR>"Hitler, too, said we are =
not going=20
to be victims any more. We'll arm ourselves and we'll have revenge. Look =
where=20
it led. That is something that could happen to Israel."<BR><BR><I>That's =
exactly=20
my point. You want us as sheep. You even love us as sheep. But you =
cannot come=20
to terms with the idea that we may use force like any other=20
nation.</I><BR><BR>"The Jews escaped from the wolves' teeth. And you got =
on=20
boats to go to the land of your ancestors. Who wasn't with Israel then? =
I was.=20
We all were. You took a barren land and you turned it green. You created =
the=20
kibbutz, which is the only successful example of democratic communism. =
You=20
created a civilized nation. And when we saw you defend yourselves after =
half of=20
you remained in the gas chambers, we were with you. You were David and =
we stood=20
by you.<BR><BR>"But this changed. Israel became a superpower. It has =
nuclear=20
arms. It is very strong. And whom are you fighting? A million women and =
children=20
and poorly trained Palestinians. So you are Goliath now. Palestine is =
David. And=20
I am with David."<BR><BR>But it goes further than that? You think there =
was a=20
dramatic transformation here. You think the Jews were transformed from =
being the=20
Nazis' victims to being the new Nazis.<BR><BR>"It was a gradual process. =
The=20
fact that the Jews were led to the gas chambers in a peaceful way, =
almost like=20
lambs, troubled them deeply. They wanted to show that they are not =
sheep. That=20
they can become wolves.<BR><BR>"Up to a point this is natural. It's =
human. But=20
you should have become wolf dogs, not wolves.<BR><BR>"I think there is =
an=20
element of racism here. You Israelis begin to think that you are =
superior to the=20
Arabs just because you have financial power and a strong army and an =
alliance=20
with the superpower."<BR><BR><I>Do you think we developed a Nazi-like=20
superiority complex?</I><BR>"When you go and blow up houses, what is it? =
It's=20
similar to Nazi behavior. When you uproot trees, what is it? It's Nazi =
behavior.=20
When you order people out of their homes within an hour, what is it? =
It's Nazi=20
behavior. It's Nazi mentality."<BR><BR><I>Let's leave politics aside. =
When you=20
look at us Jews as a whole, what do you find impressive and what is=20
intolerable?</I><BR>"When I was in Israel, I loved the madness of the =
people=20
there. The brains. <BR>The joy of life. The drunkenness. A normal person =
gets=20
drunk when he drinks <BR>wine. A Jew gets drunk without wine. You too. =
You don't=20
have to drink at all. <BR>You are drunk already.<BR><BR>"I also loved =
the girl=20
in the kibbutz who would wake up in the morning to work the land and =
have her=20
gun with her. She knew how to protect her country and fight for her =
country. I=20
found that very attractive. She was a beautiful girl. Like honey, and =
when she=20
was holding the gun, she was even more beautiful. I was much younger =
then. I was=20
attracted to the heroism of Israel. The Jews are a historic phenomenon =
that=20
attracts me enormously. I am envious of it. I don't think anyone can be=20
indifferent to it."<BR><BR><I>And what don't you like about =
us?</I><BR>"On a=20
personal level, nothing. You are not different to me or anyone else. But =
what I=20
don't accept in the Jewish people is what I don't accept in the =
Freemasons. The=20
Masonic Lodge is a group of people who help each other just because they =
are=20
members of that lodge. That happens among the Jews as well. Especially =
in=20
sensitive areas like art and music. I don't accept that."<BR><BR><I>The =
Jews=20
have too much power?</I><BR>"In certain areas - yes. I don't like these =
small=20
groupings that support one another. I view them as expressions of a =
racist=20
approach. National or religious or Mafia clans are cancerous=20
growths."<BR><BR><I>What troubles you is that Jews maintain a ghetto =
attitude=20
even when they are not weak anymore. When they are =
powerful.</I><BR><BR>"Yes. I=20
ran into it in music, but it happens elsewhere. Especially in finance. =
And in=20
the mass media. This is what makes the Jews unattractive."<BR><BR><I>You =
think=20
there is a Jewish tendency to dominate?</I><BR>"To dominate? Yes. And it =
comes=20
with a superiority complex."<BR><BR><I>So the sense of superiority and =
the=20
tendency to control are a feature of the Jews?</I><BR>"Yes. Yes. I think =
that=20
the Jewish religion that teaches a child from a very young age that our =
God is=20
very strong gives him a sense of security. So there is a contradiction =
there:=20
The people that were historically the most fearful, are mentally the =
less=20
fearful because of their religion. But now, when they have great power, =
this=20
attitude becomes dangerous."<BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>just in case you got this far, let =
me let you=20
in on this truth: the jewish child after he </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>is informed </FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>of the implications of being born "one of =
them" loses ALL=20
sense of security. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>as for Israel's actual =
military=20
situation, they have NOTHING to fear because, as =
any</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>Palestinian will tell you, the =
other Arab=20
countries have given the Palestine cause</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>very little material =
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>support over the years. Just as long as =
Israel keeps=20
its arsenal </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>up-to-date, they will NEVER=20
have </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>to fear for =
their=20
security.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>as for comparing bulldozing houses =
to the=20
Nazis</FONT> <FONT size=3D2>shooting 100 civilians =
for</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>every German killed, to say that =
is the same=20
thing, as Theodorakis and </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>others say, is evidence either of=20
a mathematical error or some inbred malice.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>the bulldozing of houses is done =
to=20
demonstrate to the Arab </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT=20
size=3D2>neighbors </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>still living in their houses that =
if you=20
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>permit your son(s) or=20
daughter(s) </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>to commit terror acts, =
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>you and your family are going =
</FONT></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>to be houseless. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>I think it is a humane measure in =
the=20
circumstances. by the way, the</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>incomplete barrier wall has =
apparently reduced=20
the terrorist actions </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>to a trickle. that and very good =
intelligence=20
work in targeting terrorists</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>to exterminate them, is not humane =
but seems necessary. also</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>by the way, Israel does NOT have =
the death=20
penalty. If an Arab is</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>caught, he may spend most or all =
of the rest=20
of his life in prison,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2>but he is NEVER executed. same as =
the Nazis,=20
right?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dt13><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
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