[Austin-ghetto-list] RE: "maps redrawn by winners"

[Jon Ford]

Wayne-- this statement is surely true in a realpolitik sense,but very sad, 
as well as full of dire consequence. Warlords, Colonialists and 
international post-war commissions are very good at redrawing maps-- and 
they seldom ask the people which side of the line they want to be on-- they 
tend to just pick them up and move them, stick them in "relocation camps"-- 
or kill them off if they won't move. Almost every world conflict today has 
its roots in mads redrawn by winners-- people stuck on the side of a line 
they don't really want to be on, a line they didn't draw. Think Palestine, 
Kashmir, Pakestan, the tragedy of former Yugoslavia,most of modern Africa, 
etc.,etc. I guess we should tell all these people, in our deep and powerful 
red white and blue wisdom "Maps are always redrawn by winners"-- so forget 
about it, you dumb losers!
But I doubt if they would listen.

Jon




>From: "Wayne Johnson" <cadaobh2@brgnet.com>
>CC: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
>Subject: RE: [Austin-ghetto-list] USA through other eyes
>Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 09:18:12 -0400
>
>The Israeli-Palestinian quagmire is not the major issue here.  Oh, it 
>surely
>provides a "rationale" to these guys.  Lets get together and kick some
>Zionist ass because some twenty-year old soldiers from the Bronx or 
>Brooklyn
>were housed at a Saudi air base for awhile.  But they want more, lots more.
>Indeed, they would like to "enshroud" the women of the world so they could
>retreat back to their 7th Century nomadic/male dominated fantasy life.
>Some of the more radical ones want to tear down the "infidel" pyramids!!
>Talk about brain dead.
>
>Sadly, there are a lot of dirty hands all around.  But "ownership" by
>History is a very dangerous argument.  There were "kingdoms" all over the
>bloody, repeat: bloody, place in the 3 to 4 thousand year history BC and
>later.  No one was created "in situ".  Bedouin roamed all over the map and
>actually had NO homes to speak of.  Religious centers only existed in Saudi
>Arabia following Mohammat, I believe.  Historically, lots and lots of
>religious centers to the North.  Lots.  Not one connected to current Islam
>by tradition and few by blood lines.  Syria/Lebanon/Iraq/Israel...lots of
>"religions" there over the Millenia.   Clearly, these people have just as
>much innate rights to these areas as Moslems would claim to have over 
>Medina
>and Mecca.  So far as time could argue, much more claim.
>
>But the Palestinian question isn't just about "homeland" it has always been
>about oil.  British Petroleum (and Churchill) redrew the local map 
>following
>the Sikes/Picot (sp?) treaty after WWI (and TE Lawrence.)  Recall virtually
>all of this area belonged to the Ottoman Empire. There have been decades of
>opportunity to resolve the displaced Palestinians but they have been too
>useful a tool for other political/economic/military interests.  How much
>money did the Saudis EVER contribute to help Palestinian refugees?  Any?
>Hell, they could have lined the streets with BMWs had they chosen to do so.
>But...uh...Saudis aren't "related" to Palestinians.  Don't count THEIR
>spritual lineage back to Mohammad the same way.  Therefore, I guess, it was
>ok to say to heck with 'em.
>
>Personally, I find the Likud to be as guilty of parochial/right wing
>thinking as anyone in the region.  I don't like conservative religious
>beliefs of any persuasion.  But then, I didn't lose 6 to 7 MILLION
>kinsmen/women and relatives in the Holocaust either.  Should there be a
>"viable" Jewish state in the Middle East?
>
>Absolutely yes.
>
>And there are others who deserve a homeland as well who have suffered
>horrific pogroms and "ethnic cleansing" in the past - Armenians and Kurds
>come immediately to mind.
>
>Maps are always redrawn by the winners.
>
>Wayne
>-----Original Message-----
>From: austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net
>[mailto:austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net]On Behalf Of Michael
>Eisenstadt
>Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 11:52 AM
>To: EarthAnjel@aol.com
>Cc: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
>Subject: Re: [Austin-ghetto-list] USA through other eyes
>
>
> > From my perspective, this is all very confusing.  I don't know who's
> > right or who's wrong.  I don't hate anybody, Jew or Palestinian.  But
> > the bloody fight that has been going on between Israel and the
> > Palestinians for over 5 decades now has surely contributed to this
> > dreadful situation that now permeates the entire world.
>
>Carol,
>
>The Islam religion is different from Christianity in that
>it considers that land once conquered by Islam can NEVER
>be ruled by non Islams. This is especially so for Saudia
>Arabia where Mecca is. This land used to be forbidden
>to Jews. The first Jew in modern times to my knowledge who
>ever went there was Henry Kissinger around 1972. I well
>remember Lanny Wiggin's wife jibing at me that she and
>Lanny could go there where Lanny worked as an engineer
>but I couldnt, this was in the 60s. Lanny is Ramsey
>Wiggin's estranged brother.
>
>So for a religious Moslem the presence of American military
>bases in Saudia Arabia is an unacceptable desecration of
>the most holy places. Among those American troops are...
>jews. Yes, there are jewish US Army personnel in those
>bases. To Islam this is sacrilege.
>
>Yes the Jews to a Moslem may be desecrating holy lands
>by RULING over part of historical Palestine (Jews and other
>minorities were allowed to live in Islam lands in the
>past but as subject people), but it is America which
>maintains military bases in the most holy land, Saudia
>Arabia. So it was America that was attacked, not Israel.
>
>There are always certain persons with a questionable
>attitude toward jews TO BEGIN WITH who can be expected
>to put forth this line of argument, its the jews'
>fault, a line of argument which in normal times is
>usually kept quasi-hidden. Roger did it by forwarding
>Wall Street Journal articles -- their attitude towards
>the Israelis is ancient history, it is similar to Pat
>Buchanan's.
>
>So let us Americans abandon our military bases in
>Saudia Arabia and let us repatriate the Israelis to
>Alberta Canada. Let us all convert to Islam
>(they are not racialists, anyone can convert)
>and then we can watch movie videos indoors
>from covert satelite dishes and have our women
>folks walk around outside with a rag in front
>of their faces.
>
>Mike the pro-Zionist
>
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp