value subtracted, from Austin
Frances Morey
frances_morey@excite.com
Mon, 29 Oct 2001 17:53:52 -0800 (PST)
Yes, and when Dell finishes its plant in Mexico and moves a huge chunk of
manufacturing away from Austin, it'll be time to buy cheap and abundant real
estate here at home.
On Sunday morning I attended a talk by Dr. James K. Galbraith at the
Unitarian Church. Despite differences involving a certain attention to
grooming--professional haircut, laundered and pressed shirt with crisp
button-down collar, dark suit--Dr. G. bears an uncanny resemblance to Roger.
He spoke on the economy and painted a grim picture given the WTC disaster
and the war response of the last few weeks. He pointed out that personal
savings in the US economy back in 1997 became negative, that the attack
precipitated the sudden downturn but it was a condition waiting to happen.
He quoted some economist who said, "When a trend cannot continue, it will
stop."
He predicts a severe and prolonged slowdown as households and individuals
recover from no savings, states cut down on spending with reduced tax
collection, unemployment climbs--hardly a harbinger of hope. He said that
Cheany says that we are involved in a "permanent war" that will not be over
in our lifetimes. I sure hope Cheaney is seeing shortsidedly due to his
health conditions and doesn't speak for the rest of us. I didn't stay for
the Q and A. Perhaps Mary Jane Ford can tell us if there were any notable
comments imparted.
Frances
On Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:10:58 -0800, Jon Ford wrote:
> Interesting shift of the ground, Bob! I had assumed you were exclusely
> engaged in facilitating the Internet gambling trade, which I see as a
type
> of legalized drug pushing (although I'm sure that would be a very
> "emotional" thing to say--so I apologize in advance!)
> Now I see you are even more of force to be reckoned with than I had
assumed.
> International cartel! Roche pharmaceuticals! I'm truly impressed.
>
> Costa Rica may be heaven on earth compared to other countries with poor
> working conditions in US sponsored sweatshops that have been the subjects
of
> outrage in Congress and heavily investigated on numerous occasions, as
> anyone who has read the newspapers in the past few years knows. But all
this
> has little to do with the simple issue that I started off disputing with
you
> about: that is, the absurd statement about how the US builds great
products
> for the world,at a great savings in energy, pollution etc., when in fact
the
> opposite is true--we are increasingly relying on foreign workers and
plants,
> foreign energy and natural resources, to do our "dirty work" for us. This
is
> so obvious that it is simply not worth debating--however, you obviously
> think you are doing God's work in Latin America,and I'm sure I will never
> convince you otherwise. If your conscience is OK with what you're doing
in
> Costa Rica, if you think you're in the Peace Corps down there, that's
fine
> with me-- just keep your delusions to yourself.
> Have another tequila sunrise, while you're at it--have one on me.
>
> Jon
>
>
> >From: "telebob x" <telebob98@hotmail.com>
> >To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> >Subject: Re:value added?
> >Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:11:06 +0000
> >
> >Jon-
> >Your assumptions are actually wrong as usual. You can look at our Costa
> >Rica
> >website ( www.ticonet.co.cr ) and make your own further judgements
about
> >what we do. We also host the local supermarket chain, Roche
Pharmaceuticals
> >(Swiss I believe.), and a plethora of local enterprises.
> >
> >As for our 'gaming' clientele...we have about 20 servers we are
> >hosting...only 3 are from the USA. We have Brits, Hong Kong, Malta,
> >Russians, Germans, 1 Irish company, four Canadian, one Dominican and so
> >on....so once again your argument is preceded by your prejudices.
> >
> >Obviously I cannot speak to the quality of any of the international
> >corporate sweatshops worldwide, whether Chinese, USA, European, or even
> >Saudi owned. Some are obviously better than others, and certainly some
> >must
> >be abysmal, but market economies are market economies...and no matter
what,
> >there will always be a dark Darwinian side to them. (The real solution
to
> >most of these world ills is overpopulation, but that is another argument
> >entirely.)
> >
> >I CAN speak to the quality of the maquilas here. I have been in a dozen
of
> >them. Costa Rica is very assiduous in making certain that the employers
> >maintain clean, healthy work environments. The wages here are not high,
> >but
> >they are certainly better than the old coffee picking and village
> >agriculture that was available before the manufacturing plants arrived.
> >
> >Further, the Costa Ricans make sure that employees are covered by the
local
> >Caja (Social Security System) that assures health care and an old age
> >pension. It is not 'Scott and White' but the health statistics indicate
it
> >is quite effective in keeping a generally healthy population.
> >
> >And as long as you do not provide the stats for your position, nor do I,
> >then our usual spat will just have to remain that. You let your
prejudices
> >do your thinking for you and I will do the same.
> >
> >Cordially yours,
> >
> >tele
> >
> >
> >>From: "Jon Ford" <jonmfordster@hotmail.com>
> >>To: telebob98@hotmail.com
> >>Subject: Re:value added?
> >>Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:53:47 -0700
> >>
> >>Bob-- Sorry to be so long getting back to you. I simply sent out my
little
> >>ratio analysis to demonstrate that your initial assumption of "value
> >>addedness" in US products was fallacious. You have not shown my basic
> >>argument to be false--ie, the US out-sources much of the dirty business
of
> >>production, re-imports, and re-exports-- always for a profit, without
> >>having to expend much energy. I don't have to document this process,
> >>because it as well known in global economics as "the sun rises in the
> >>morning." By the way, your own original rant had no documentation
attached
> >>whatever-- so why should I be held to a higher standard? I have
travelled
> >>in many foreign countries, and have spoken with workers and management
> >>personnel about these matters. I also have heard a great deal in the
media
> >>of the conditions in factories abroad such as the ones owned by Nike
and
> >>other large US owned corporations, so unless you can present concrete
> >>information proving me wrong (not just "I went to a baseball factory
in
> >>Costa Ricaand the workers were happy there"), I will continue to hold
to
> >>my
> >>beliefs. Of course, those employed in factories abroad making a dollar
or
> >>so per hour are happier than those who are unemployed-- but that
doesn't
> >>mean that they are really benefitting in the long run from these
> >>conditions, which often lead, as in the case in Brazil, to massive
> >>inflation and energy shortages. Further, Bob, since you yourself are
> >>actively involved in the effort to wire Costa Rica to pave the way for
> >>Internet gambling franchises, most of which are owned by US firms,I
have
> >>trouble seeing your perspective as anything other than purely
> >>self-serving.
> >>
> >>Jon
> >>
> >>
> >>>From: "telebob x" <telebob98@hotmail.com>
> >>>To: jonmfordster@hotmail.com
> >>>Subject: Re:value added?
> >>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:15:44 +0000
> >>>
> >>>Jon-
> >>>
> >>>Excuse me, but what a lot of overwrought emotional hyperbole you
utter.
> >>>Let me list the phrases that caught my eye.
> >>>
> >>>"Child labor for pennies an hour"
> >>>"fancy brand tags"
> >>>"prices are going up" (actually you are wrong about this)
> >>>"that US brand toaster they could do without"
> >>>"very poor people motivated to scrimp and save"
> >>>"bread if they could afford any"
> >>>
> >>>and so on.
> >>>
> >>>Jon, you did not include one hard fact or statistic to back up your
> >>>point(s) of view.
> >>>
> >>>For the most part, the standard of living is going up (albeit slowly)
in
> >>>most of the 'undeveloped world' except where the local cultures are so
> >>>tyrannical or backward that there is no helping them at all. (I go
back
> >>>to
> >>>the book "The Cultural Basis of A Backward Society"). How can Rwanda
get
> >>>ahead when everyone there is involved in tribal warfare. How can
> >>>Yugoslavia get ahead while the Serbs are killing the Muslims? Yes,
that
> >>>darn Kuala Lampur sure has been suffering, and even with the
population
> >>>growth of India, their standard of living, even among the lower
classes,
> >>>has been improving steadily for 50 years. Yes there are sweatshops in
> >>>Indonesia, and there are poorly paid Central Americans and Haitians,
etc.
> >>>However I have been to some of these terribly exploitive places and
they
> >>>aint as bad as you imagine. Most of the workers there are happy to
have
> >>>the indoor jobs rather than an opportunity to sit idle on a hillside
in
> >>>their old tribal state or work their fingers to the bone trying to
raise
> >>>beans to eat...that was their state before the capitalist
manufacturers
> >>>came to town.
> >>>
> >>>And do not worry, plenty of these other states are rushing to ape the
> >>>development model of the West. Seen China lately? Would you say
their
> >>>standard of living is improving or falling by the introduction of a
> >>>market
> >>>driven economy?
> >>>
> >>>I was in a Costa Rican baseball factory the other day and I can tell
you
> >>>there was no one there that was not damned glad to have the job, and
it
> >>>was not for 'pennies a day."
> >>>
> >>>The only way to measure this stuff is to look at the economic and
health
> >>>stats and then make your call. The emotional hyperbole gets us nowhere
> >>>fast, except as an expression of our personal biases.
> >>>
> >>>Jesus man, you were in Brazil...you can see what they are building
there.
> >>>Yes, there are terrible pockets of poverty, and the social net that
many
> >>>of these countries have is very poorly woven, but I think our
arguments
> >>>deserve some facts to support them....eh?
> >>>
> >>>Anyone here want to do the homework to test these warring hypothoses?
> >>>
> >>>tele
> >>>
> >>>>From: "Jon Ford" <jonmfordster@hotmail.com>
> >>>>To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
> >>>>Subject: Re:value added?
> >>>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:20:19 -0700
> >>>>
> >>>>Bob, I thought your "value added" remark to be truly a classic. Let's
> >>>>look
> >>>>at some facts: 1) a huge number of the products you mention are not
> >>>>really
> >>>>"value added" by US consumptionsince they (or most of the parts
used
> >>>>in
> >>>>the products) are actually manufactured in the Third World under US
> >>>>control
> >>>>and ownership. This means the Third World is having to build big
power
> >>>>plants to provide the modern-style factories to make them, and of
course
> >>>>provide the child labor for pennies an hour to crank these fine
products
> >>>>out. The energy consumption of these countries (along with
atmospheric
> >>>>and
> >>>>water pollution)has skyrocketed in recent years, as has the demand
for
> >>>>natural resources to make the products and fuel the machines.
> >>>>
> >>>>2) Then, getting even wilder, many of these goods are imported to
the
> >>>>US,
> >>>>some being sold here as US products (value added "over there, "
making
> >>>>them
> >>>>cheaper), reexported to the Third World with fancy brand tags on
them,
> >>>>higher prices, big profit for the US. Only the middle or upper class
> >>>>Third
> >>>>Worlders can afford said products, but the poor get something a few
> >>>>years
> >>>>behind the times, yearning for that upper middle-class world that
the
> >>>>products can magically transport them to. We are really just
outsourcing
> >>>>what wouldn't be tolerated here in terms of huge energy consumption
and
> >>>>pollution (of course, we are still by far the largest consumers per
> >>>>capita
> >>>>of energy and products of all kinds).
> >>>>
> >>>>3) What's also happening now in the Third World (well, let's say
most
> >>>>of
> >>>>the world) is that prices are going way up because of increasing
energy
> >>>>coasts, less land in cultivation, etc.-- the pennies a day the
factory
> >>>>workers make don't really cover all this very well. So the
international
> >>>>PR
> >>>>firms of which you seem proud have to work really hard to create
> >>>>hyper-consumerism in Third World countries, to open up new markets
> >>>>everywhere so that very poor people will be motivated to scrimp and
> >>>>save
> >>>>to buy, say, a US brand toaster which they could probably do
without--
> >>>>they
> >>>>could warm their bread (if they could afford any) some other way.
> >>>>
> >>>>Jon "the Zen saint" Ford
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Well I noticed something interesting too....the fact that you
totally
> >>>>>ignored the point of my original post and fixed on the 'tone' of the
> >>>>>post
> >>>>>rather than the simple idea that the USA is not quite the energy and
> >>>>>resource hog that many of the stats imply since so many of the raw
> >>>>>materials
> >>>>>imported have 'value added' and then are re-exported to the world.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Perhaps you would care to address that issue?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>_________________________________________________________________
> >>>>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >>>>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
>
"The Skinny on Weight Loss: One Woman's
True Journey to Fat and Back" by Frances Morey
Order online <www.xlibris.com/bookstore>
or by phone at 1-888-795-4274 Extension #276
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