value added (long and acidic) and yak yak

[Wayne Johnson]

I believe you must mean the National Association of Manufacturers.   These
little errors are so tiresome.

Bob has been working, covertly, for this august organization for a number of
years now.  (Oops, I guess I have let something out of the bag here, haven't
I?)  All the NAM supported advertisements utilizing nubile young women
gazing adoringly at severely handsome older men, can be credited to Bob.
Also those which extol the virtues of buying anything on wheels, anything
with a Bose sound system, anything using gasoline or electricity.  Bob has
done it all.  Naturally, this leaves him very fatigued at night.  (Once, one
could say "fagged out" but that doesn't quite have the cachet it once did.
Unless, of course, you went to English Public Schools...from which we
Americans get so much in the way of useful language.  But I digress.)

Personally, I have neither the time nor energy to be constantly coming to
Bob's defense.  You and Jon really need to, as they say on MTV...get a life,
dude.  This never ending barrage of banal/poorly reasoned/generally useless
& boring message, counter-message, counter-counter-message, ad nauseum is
wearing Bob down.  He needs his creative time to exploit all the loop holes
in international internet "entertainment".   Keeping Bob from doing this by
continuing such childish drivel is tatamount to being un-American, nee
un-Ghetto.

I myself, of course, always find these tedious, tendentious and utterly
pointlesss discussions most delightful and full of merit and joy and hope
that they will continue unabated into the next Millenium.  They are
definitely the high lights of my narrowly provincial life and, further, I
absolutely believe the moon is composed of green cheese.

Have a nice day.  Hey, do yourselves a favor, check out The Rocky Horror
Show and try to memorize some really interesting lines.  Good for you. Good
for me. Good for tribe.

Yours in wonderment

Freddie $mith

-----Original Message-----
From: austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net
[mailto:austin-ghetto-list-admin@pairlist.net]On Behalf Of Bill Irwin
Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 3:57 PM
To: telebob x
Cc: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
Subject: Re: value added (long and acidic)


Great speech Bob.  You are wasting your time and talents in Costa Rica.  You
should go to Washington and get a job as a speech writer for the Bush
administration or the American Association of Manufactures.

I don't have the interest or inclination to deconstruct all your augments so
will just say a few things about the corn example.  Yes, American farmers
are very good at growing corn (and other stuff also), they have the best of
technology, the great American work ethic, and good land.  Nobody can grow
corn at a cheaper price than the American corn farmer and that is were the
problem comes in.  Third world farmers can't compete at those low prices so
they lose out.  At one time in the past Mexican corn farmers could make a
meager  living on their small farms then NAFTA came in and American corn
became so cheap that the poor Mexican farmer could no longer make enough to
feed their families.  They were left with only 3 choices; stand around the
village square and starve, become a wetback, or seek work in the sweatshops.
See Jon's post   "sweatshops  value added around the world" for what
happened to them next.  The Globalization of trade and the lowering of
protective tariffs have been great for the American corn farmer but a
disaster for other corn farmers.  In case you haven't been able to figure
out why all the angry protest at World trade meetings, well the corn example
explains some of it.

Keep up the interesting posts please.  Without any opposition there can be
no dialog.  Your posts are intellectually stimulating and I appreciate that.
But, some comic relief would also be good - tell us some good story about
Ghetto Daze (isn't that what this list is about?).
Bill "Ewie" Irwin


----- Original Message -----
From: telebob x <telebob98@hotmail.com>
To: <austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 2:41 PM
Subject: value added (long and acidic)


> Jon Ford said:
> ", the absurd statement about how the US builds great products for the
> world,at a great savings in energy, pollution etc., when in fact the
> opposite is true--we are increasingly relying on foreign workers and
plants,
> foreign energy and natural resources, to do our "dirty work" for."
>
> ********************************************************************
> OK Jon-
>
> Here's only one  "value added" schema to illuminate my argument-
>
> Product  Exported from USA-   Corn 2.5 billion bushels   exported
> (This corn is fertilized by imported  nitrogen)
>
>
> In today's global market, the economic success of the entire agricultural
> sector depends on international trade. One of every five rows of corn
grown
> in the United States goes overseas. The USA also exports 'value-added'
corn
> products such as meat, dairy and poultry products, corn gluten feed,
> plastics and corn syrup. There is no other sector of the U.S. economy
where
> the link between trade and prosperity is clearer than in agriculture.
>
> NITROGEN
> Ammonia
> Most of the traded ammonia is used to manufacture fertilizers but
> considerable quantities are used to produce industrial chemicals. Between
> 1986/88 and 1996/98 world ammonia trade increased from 8.2 to 11.2 million
> tonnes N.
> The main ammonia exporting regions in the 1996 to 1998 period were the FSU
> (36% of world trade), Trinidad, Mexico and Venezuela (19%), the Near East
> (12%).
> The main importers were West Europe, the USA, and certain Asian countries.
> Etc etc
>
****************************************************************************
********************
> There are literally 1000's of products manufactured in the US by US
> companies utilizing raw materials and energy imported from the rest of the
> world. Should I mention (Boeing) aircraft, machine tools, electronics,
> petrochemicals, steel products, and so on ad infinitum? There is 'value
> added' in every one of these products.
>
> This is not to say that people in the United States do not receive a
> disproportionate amount of the world's goods and services.  We are rich.
We
> should be.  We have worked hard, and we work smart. We live in comfort
> compared to many cultures in the rest of the world.  However, if you have
> spent much time in Western Europe, you can see that comfort and riches are
> hardly confined to the North American continent.  We (and the Europeans)
use
> the energy of the world to create products that are sold back to the world
> at ..yes A PROFIT.. so shocking. (But not unusual to see that we use an
> disproportionate amount of energy and materials to create these products.)
>
> Jon you seem to find that to be offensive. Even more, you seem to resent
the
> success that the USA has enjoyed over the last 200 years and feel that our
> success is built on the bones of crushed economies and the labor of the
> oppressed in world sweatshops..
>
> Well Jon it just isn't true.  Whatever our flaws, and whatever crimes we
> have committed against the world, they shrink before the success of mere
> free markets and democracy.  It is not a zero sum game.  Our labor,
capital,
> and ingenuity have created this wealth.  It is not wealth that had to be
> 'stolen' from others. (Though 'we' did have to take the continent from the
> Native Americans..but I am sure the Neanderthals resented the rise of
modern
> Homo Sapiens too.)  The Marxist paradigm has been shown to be empirically
> vacant.  Marx was good at describing inequities and the flaws of
> socio/economic models, but his solutions were naïve in the extreme and
> ultimately wrong.as proven in the laboratory of experience. You seem to be
> forgetting that.
>
> So you can call my "value added" comment "infamous" but I will be happy to
> stand behind it any day, and yes, you can say I belong to the "My country
> right or wrong." Even if that is not exactly true..It certainly IS MY
> COUNTRY and I am happy to be considered American wherever I happen to be
in
> the world.  As to whether we are "right or wrong".when we are right, I
> support it, when we are wrong, I will work to change it or modify.but I
> would never rush to blame my own country for the ills of the world.
>
> The remarkable thing is that you seem to posit that the "International
> Corporate Model is an American invention, and that we are the main
> villains.if there are actually villains. You seem to find the whole idea
of
> labor for 'profit' to be execrable, and worse, you find the fact that
people
> desire goods and services to be problematic as well.  Perhaps you would
like
> things to be produced in OZ under the guidance of saintly sorts who never
> exploit a cheaper labor market or a geopolitical advantage? This is almost
a
> Ted Kazynski like argument.
>
> I will ignore the 'ad hominum' attacks in your retort, except to say.
please
> check our website at
>
> www.ticonet.com
>
> and make your judgement about the horrid nature of what we do.  I don't
> notice people attacking the phone company for allowing naughty things to
be
> said on its wires.  Our job does not include patrolling the morality of
our
> clients.  People like to play games, and I would really hate to live in a
> world designed by the moralists.like the Taliban or others who like to
tell
> people what they should be doing.or what constitutes correct thought.
>
> The weird thing is..I now have the feeling that you Jon, and a few other
of
> the "blame America first"  crowd, seem to have more in sympathy with Bin
> Laden than you do with ordinary Americans, and I find that repugnant.
>
> Cordially.and you can stuff it too,
>
> tele
>
>
>
>
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