value added?

Sun, 28 Oct 2001 17:11:06 +0000

Jon-
Your assumptions are actually wrong as usual. You can look at our Costa Rica 
website  ( www.ticonet.co.cr ) and make your own further judgements about 
what we do. We also host the local supermarket chain, Roche Pharmaceuticals 
(Swiss I believe.), and a plethora of local enterprises.

As for our 'gaming' clientele...we have about 20 servers we are 
hosting...only 3 are from the USA.  We have Brits, Hong Kong, Malta, 
Russians, Germans, 1 Irish company, four Canadian, one Dominican and so 
on....so once again your argument is preceded by your prejudices.

Obviously I cannot speak to the quality of any of the international 
corporate sweatshops worldwide, whether Chinese, USA, European, or even 
Saudi owned.  Some are obviously better than others, and certainly some must 
be abysmal, but market economies are market economies...and no matter what, 
there will always be a dark Darwinian side to them.  (The real solution to 
most of these world ills is overpopulation, but that is another argument 
entirely.)

I CAN speak to the quality of the maquilas here. I have been in a dozen of 
them.  Costa Rica is very assiduous in making certain that the employers 
maintain clean, healthy work environments.  The wages here are not high, but 
they are certainly better than the old coffee picking and village 
agriculture that was available before the manufacturing plants arrived.

Further, the Costa Ricans make sure that employees are covered by the local 
Caja (Social Security System) that assures health care and an old age 
pension.  It is not 'Scott and White' but the health statistics indicate it 
is quite effective in keeping a generally healthy population.

And as long as you do not provide the stats for your position, nor do I, 
then our usual spat will just have to remain that. You let your prejudices 
do your thinking for you and I will do the same.

Cordially yours,

tele

>From: "Jon Ford" <jonmfordster@hotmail.com>
>To: telebob98@hotmail.com
>Subject: Re:value added?
>Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 00:53:47 -0700
>
>Bob-- Sorry to be so long getting back to you. I simply sent out my little 
>ratio analysis to demonstrate that your initial assumption of "value 
>addedness" in US products was fallacious. You have not shown my basic 
>argument to be false--ie, the US out-sources much of the dirty business of 
>production, re-imports, and re-exports-- always for a profit, without 
>having to expend much energy. I don't have to document this process, 
>because it as well known in global economics as "the sun rises in the 
>morning." By the way, your own original rant had no documentation attached 
>whatever-- so why should I be held to a higher standard? I have travelled 
>in many foreign countries, and have spoken with workers and management 
>personnel about these matters. I also have heard a great deal in the media 
>of the conditions in factories abroad such as the ones owned by Nike and 
>other large US owned corporations, so unless you can present concrete 
>information proving me wrong (not just "I went to a baseball factory  in 
>Costa Ricaand the workers were happy there"), I will continue to hold to my 
>beliefs. Of course, those employed in factories abroad making a dollar or 
>so per hour are happier than those who are unemployed-- but that doesn't 
>mean that they are really benefitting in the long run from these 
>conditions, which often lead, as in the case in Brazil, to massive 
>inflation and energy shortages. Further, Bob, since you yourself are 
>actively involved in the effort to wire Costa Rica to pave the way for 
>Internet gambling franchises, most of which are owned by US firms,I have 
>trouble seeing your perspective as anything other than purely self-serving.
>
>Jon
>
>
>>From: "telebob x" <telebob98@hotmail.com>
>>To: jonmfordster@hotmail.com
>>Subject: Re:value added?
>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:15:44 +0000
>>
>>Jon-
>>
>>Excuse me, but what a lot of overwrought emotional hyperbole you utter. 
>>Let me list the phrases that caught my eye.
>>
>>"Child labor for pennies an hour"
>>"fancy brand tags"
>>"prices are going up" (actually you are wrong about this)
>>"that US brand toaster they could do without"
>>"very poor people motivated to scrimp and save"
>>"bread if they could afford any"
>>
>>and so on.
>>
>>Jon, you did not include one hard fact or statistic to back up your 
>>point(s) of view.
>>
>>For the most part, the standard of living is going up (albeit slowly) in 
>>most of the 'undeveloped world' except where the local cultures are so 
>>tyrannical or backward that there is no helping them at all. (I go back to 
>>the book "The Cultural Basis of A Backward Society").  How can Rwanda get 
>>ahead when everyone there is involved in tribal warfare.  How can 
>>Yugoslavia get ahead while the Serbs are killing the Muslims?  Yes, that 
>>darn Kuala Lampur sure has been suffering, and even with the population 
>>growth of India, their standard of living, even among the lower classes, 
>>has been improving steadily for 50 years.  Yes there are sweatshops in 
>>Indonesia, and there are poorly paid Central Americans and Haitians, etc.  
>>However I have been to some of these terribly exploitive places and they 
>>aint as bad as you imagine.  Most of the workers there are happy to have 
>>the indoor jobs rather than an opportunity to sit idle on a hillside in 
>>their old tribal state or work their fingers to the bone trying to raise 
>>beans to eat...that was their state before the capitalist manufacturers 
>>came to town.
>>
>>And do not worry, plenty of these other states are rushing to ape the 
>>development model of the West.  Seen China lately?  Would you say their 
>>standard of living is improving or falling by the introduction of a market 
>>driven economy?
>>
>>I was in a Costa Rican baseball factory the other day and I can tell you 
>>there was no one there that was not damned glad to have the job, and it 
>>was not for 'pennies a day."
>>
>>The only way to measure this stuff is to look at the economic and health 
>>stats and then make your call. The emotional hyperbole gets us nowhere 
>>fast, except as an expression of our personal biases.
>>
>>Jesus man, you were in Brazil...you can see what they are building there.  
>>Yes, there are terrible pockets of poverty, and the social net that many 
>>of these countries have is very poorly woven, but I think our arguments 
>>deserve some facts to support them....eh?
>>
>>Anyone here want to do the homework to test these warring hypothoses?
>>
>>tele
>>
>>>From: "Jon Ford" <jonmfordster@hotmail.com>
>>>To: austin-ghetto-list@pairlist.net
>>>Subject: Re:value added?
>>>Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 15:20:19 -0700
>>>
>>>Bob, I thought your "value added" remark to be truly a classic. Let's 
>>>look
>>>at some facts: 1) a huge number of the  products you mention are not 
>>>really
>>>"value added"  by US consumptionsince they  (or most of the parts used in
>>>the products) are actually manufactured in the Third World  under US 
>>>control
>>>and ownership. This means the Third World is having to build big power
>>>plants to provide the modern-style factories to make them, and of course
>>>provide the child labor for pennies an hour to crank these fine products
>>>out.  The energy consumption of these countries (along with atmospheric 
>>>and
>>>water pollution)has skyrocketed in recent years, as has the demand for
>>>natural resources to make the products and fuel the machines.
>>>
>>>2) Then, getting even wilder,  many of these goods are imported to the 
>>>US,
>>>some being sold here as US products (value added "over there, " making 
>>>them
>>>cheaper), reexported to the Third World with fancy brand tags on them,
>>>higher prices, big profit for the US. Only the middle or upper  class 
>>>Third
>>>Worlders can afford said products, but the poor get something a few years
>>>behind the times, yearning for that upper  middle-class  world that the
>>>products can magically transport them to. We are really just outsourcing
>>>what wouldn't be tolerated here in terms of huge energy consumption and
>>>pollution (of course, we are still by far the largest consumers per 
>>>capita
>>>of energy and products of all kinds).
>>>
>>>3) What's  also happening now in the Third World (well, let's say most of
>>>the world) is that prices are going way up because of increasing energy
>>>coasts, less land in cultivation, etc.-- the pennies a day the factory
>>>workers make don't really cover all this very well. So the international 
>>>PR
>>>firms of which you seem proud have to work really hard to create
>>>hyper-consumerism in Third World countries,  to open up new markets
>>>everywhere so  that very poor people  will be motivated to scrimp and 
>>>save
>>>to buy, say, a US brand toaster which they could probably do without-- 
>>>they
>>>could warm their bread (if they could afford any) some other way.
>>>
>>>Jon "the Zen saint" Ford
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well I noticed something interesting too....the fact that you totally
>>>>ignored the point of my original post and fixed on the 'tone' of the 
>>>>post
>>>>rather than the simple idea that the USA is not quite the energy and
>>>>resource hog that many of the stats imply since so many of the raw
>>>>materials
>>>>imported have 'value added' and then are re-exported to the world.
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps you would care to address that issue?
>>>>
>>>
>>>_________________________________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>

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